Vines, Branches, Citizens, and Faithful Non-members

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

I just now prayed for her, and you, again, and I will remember you both again in my prayers.  My wife is my greatest blessing and I don't ever want to be without her, so I think I can relate with your feelings about that.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I would disagree with Ahab on his point. I think there is only one church of the Lamb....and it consists of all those that follow Christ. In saying that, I acknowledge that individual Christians are found all along the scale of understanding and knowing truth. The confines that we see as churches, in this context, fall away and have no meaning. The last days will demand changes from all of God's disciples.

Our church is that one church of the lamb, that lamb being Jesus Christ.  Sounds to me like you don't realize that there is and has been and will be only one true church of Jesus Christ, and that church is our church.

... whether it's called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the church that existed during the days when the New Testament was written, or whatever it might be called if it is ever renamed again in the future...

The true church of Jesus Christ consists of the people in it, the members of it, and once someone is in it they stay in it unless they are excommunicated from it.

And there is only one way to get in it, which is by being baptized and confirmed a member of it, at which time the new member is commanded to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain faithful to Jesus Christ.

[Calm]

Prayers coming, Navidad. 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, alter idem said:

Me too. I've taken to trying to read through what I write wach time before posting,  because I've caught so many times when what I've said could be misconstrued,  but even with that, I still miss some, because readers  find them.🙃

Wach and every time, huh? LOL!

😂

Yes we all do it! 

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am the one who expressed the semi-serious thought about the judgment of 150 billion people taking a long time. Blame me for that if it appalls you. Sorry. I just have always had the sense that Christ was going to speak personally with each and every person

Yes, of course he will, and it will take no computers and no time at all.

How many prayers can he handle per second?

I haven't ever gotten a busy signal!

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Ok. Fine with me! Perhaps we can meet in the celestial kingdom some day and look back and shake our heads about all this disagreement. Then I will be able to introduce you to my former Mennonite bishop. He was an amazing man!

I'm looking forward to it! 

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Now you are going over it again yourself. I thought you didn't see value in that.

That was posted before we agreed to disagree 

I have not seen the value of it years ago when we started this same talk, and doing it over and over. Hopefully we are now beyond all that.

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

I would have been close to punching him in the nose, so sorry anyone would say such a thing.

You both will be in my prayers, may God bless you.

[Paloma]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

Navidad, I am praying for your wife.  She sounds like a wonderful, dear, sweet woman full of God's Spirit and grace.  May you have many more years together ... and may you have joy in each other, and with your family and friends.  It is good to see the prayer support you have here among friends on this board.

[Storm Rider]

11 hours ago, Ahab said:

Our church is that one church of the lamb, that lamb being Jesus Christ.  Sounds to me like you don't realize that there is and has been and will be only one true church of Jesus Christ, and that church is our church.

... whether it's called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the church that existed during the days when the New Testament was written, or whatever it might be called if it is ever renamed again in the future...

The true church of Jesus Christ consists of the people in it, the members of it, and once someone is in it they stay in it unless they are excommunicated from it.

And there is only one way to get in it, which is by being baptized and confirmed a member of it, at which time the new member is commanded to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain faithful to Jesus Christ.

Ahab, what you have stated about Church and the requirements to enter the Celestial Kingdom are what I believe. Where my beliefs may differ is what we call the church in the last days - there will only be two - those that follow Christ and those that follow the Evil one. In that day, all that follow Christ will stand together against everyone else. It does not mean that baptism by those having proper authority has lost its value; but but that we stand together against evil. Another term I might use would be the Body of Christ. 

[alter idem]

17 hours ago, Navidad said:

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

I'm happy to keep your wife in my thoughts and prayers, God hears our prayers and he answers them.  The power of prayer is real and when we combine our faith with others, our differences in religion and doctrine fall away, I see no division over the power of faith among the believers in Christ. I hope you can feel his love for you and your wife and the comfort and peace his Spirit brings to those who turn to him. 

The authorized lds priesthood ordinance of conferring the gift of the holy ghost, means that after baptism and then confirmation,  that individual has the RIGHT to have his spirit with them always (unless they lose that periodically through rebellious sin), likely the teacher was referring to that.  Of course non members can have his spirit,  otherwise how would they ever be able to be guided in this life? They couldn't receive a testimony of Jesus Christ or his true church without that spirit to witness of truth.

God loves all his children,  and I have a testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the most truth of any church on earth today. We are authorized to exersize his priesthood on earth, and offer saving ordinances that extend into the next life and allow families to be sealed together for eternity. We offer this invitation to all; we, as members and as a church, spend our money, our time and resources to share this message with all who will listen.

  I am sorry that certain doctrines in our message have caused you to feel offended, but we cannot change them, because we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. I hope you can accept the differences we cannot renounce and fellowship with us in the things we share. I think you'd find a more satisfying experience and a Christ like love develop with the ward family you've chosen to worship with.

P.S. And if your wife would like one,  she can receive a Priesthood blessing; these are given freely to any who ask.

[Tacenda]

On 6/5/2020 at 10:02 PM, Paloma said:

Navidad, I am praying for your wife.  She sounds like a wonderful, dear, sweet woman full of God's Spirit and grace.  May you have many more years together ... and may you have joy in each other, and with your family and friends.  It is good to see the prayer support you have here among friends on this board.

Cringe!!! Why are there people like that, and how in the world do they decipher what they say like this, from what they learn in church?!? 

[rodheadlee]

Prayers for your wife coming up.From my wife and I.

[Rain]

On 6/5/2020 at 2:43 PM, Navidad said:

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

Prayers here as well.

[Anakin7]

On June 5, 2020 at 2:43 PM, Navidad said:

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

    Prayer out from our LDS Kingdom Mansion Home.

[Navidad]

I want to thank you each of you who have offered my wife and me your prayers and kindness. I don't have time right now to respond to each of you individually. I thank you all from the deepest part of me. When I sit in the car outside of the medical center (I am not allowed inside) and wait for her, I am first and foremost a scared and loving husband. I want her to be free of pain and discomfort. I know that she can be healed. My faith provides me comfort. My love for her is ever so vital in my life. Thanks again so very much.

[Ahab]

On 6/6/2020 at 4:20 AM, Storm Rider said:

Ahab, what you have stated about Church and the requirements to enter the Celestial Kingdom are what I believe. Where my beliefs may differ is what we call the church in the last days - there will only be two - those that follow Christ and those that follow the Evil one. In that day, all that follow Christ will stand together against everyone else. It does not mean that baptism by those having proper authority has lost its value; but but that we stand together against evil. Another term I might use would be the Body of Christ. 

i think the confusion may come from not understanding that a person can be a true Christian and yet not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ.  Which equates to true Christians being members of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ.  Some people seem to have trouble understanding how that would be possible.  How could a true Christian possibly be a member of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ, they might ask.  Wouldn't the fact that a true Christian is a member of a church make that church the true church of Jesus Christ?  They simply do not understand it.  Their idea of what a true Christian is is so intrinsically linked to their idea about what the true church of Jesus Christ is that they can't think of how to properly understand and distinguish between what a true Christian is and what the true church of Jesus Christ is.

A true Christian is someone who tries to be like Jesus Christ as well as he/she knows how and as well as he/she is able given the fact that he/she still makes mistakes and may not properly understand the truth on some issues.

The true church of Jesus Christ is the only church that has our Lord's authority to accept someone as a new member of it by administering the required ordinances, as well as the ordinances required for exaltation.

So does that mean that someone can be a true Christian and still not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ?  Yes, it does. 

So what is required for a true Christian to be saved and/or exalted?  The requirements are the same as for anyone else. Even if the true Christian has already been baptized to become a member of some other church.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ahab

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

i think the confusion may come from not understanding that a person can be a true Christian and yet not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ.  Which equates to true Christians being members of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ.  Some people seem to have trouble understanding how that would be possible.  How could a true Christian possibly be a member of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ, they might ask.  Wouldn't the fact that a true Christian is a member of a church make that church the true church of Jesus Christ?  They simply do not understand it.  Their idea of what a true Christian is is so intrinsically linked to their idea about what the true church of Jesus Christ is that they can't think of how to properly understand and distinguish between what a true Christian is and what the true church of Jesus Christ is.

A true Christian is someone who tries to be like Jesus Christ as well as he/she knows how and as well as he/she is able given the fact that he/she still makes mistakes and may not properly understand the truth on some issues.

The true church of Jesus Christ is the only church that has our Lord's authority to accept someone as a new member of it by administering the required ordinances, as well as the ordinances required for exaltation.

So does that mean that someone can be a true Christian and still not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ?  Yes, it does. 

So what is required for a true Christian to be saved and/or exalted?  The requirements are the same as for anyone else. Even if the true Christian has already been baptized to become a member of some other church.

Our understanding of this concept is the same.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

i think the confusion may come from not understanding that a person can be a true Christian and yet not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ.  Which equates to true Christians being members of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ.  Some people seem to have trouble understanding how that would be possible.  How could a true Christian possibly be a member of a church which is not the true church of Jesus Christ, they might ask.  Wouldn't the fact that a true Christian is a member of a church make that church the true church of Jesus Christ?  They simply do not understand it.  Their idea of what a true Christian is is so intrinsically linked to their idea about what the true church of Jesus Christ is that they can't think of how to properly understand and distinguish between what a true Christian is and what the true church of Jesus Christ is.

A true Christian is someone who tries to be like Jesus Christ as well as he/she knows how and as well as he/she is able given the fact that he/she still makes mistakes and may not properly understand the truth on some issues.

The true church of Jesus Christ is the only church that has our Lord's authority to accept someone as a new member of it by administering the required ordinances, as well as the ordinances required for exaltation.

So does that mean that someone can be a true Christian and still not be a member of the true church of Jesus Christ?  Yes, it does. 

So what is required for a true Christian to be saved and/or exalted?  The requirements are the same as for anyone else. Even if the true Christian has already been baptized to become a member of some other church.

Hi Ahab - I appreciate your reply and have a few thoughts about it from my own lived experience. My wife and I were talking about this on our way up to the states the other day. Random thoughts in no order:

I have only been baptized once, but have been a member of many different churches (individual congregations) in a number of different denominations. If I remember correctly in my 71 years I have been a member of fifteen different congregations (churches) three of whom were stand-alone - connected to no denomination and the others represented five different denominations. My ordination and licensure as a minister was recognized as authoritative by four of the denominations. I never went through the process of validation in the fifth denomination. There was no purpose or need to do so. All of those congregations accepted our prior baptism as valid before the Lord, and secondarily, valid for membership. 

I was not baptized for the purpose of joining a church. Neither have I ever baptized anyone for the purpose of them becoming a member of a church or denomination. Baptism is the consummate testimony of a relationship and beyond that, a covenant or covenants with Christ. While most, if not all denominations of which I am familiar require some form of baptism to  become a member, the idea of being baptized for the purpose of joining a church is foreign to me. As I said I have only been baptized once. If I walked down the street to join our local Roman Catholic church I would also not then have to be re-baptized. Having said all of that I do understand that the LDS church requires that someone be baptized again by their authority to be a member of that church (used in your sense). That is certainly within that specific group's prerogative. I don't question that if we are talking about church membership.  I can't say whether or not I would or could submit to being baptized again in order to join the LDS church. I certainly wouldn't be submitting to it to finally have a valid baptism. That would be totally foreign to me. I am not sure if I would pass an interview to be baptized in an LDS church with that understanding. Baptism means much much more to me than doing so to belong to a specific Christian group (notice I am working hard to avoid the term denomination for the LDS church - I know you don't like me doing that and out of respect I am trying to avoid it).

Also, I am not sure how to distinguish a true Christian from someone who hasn't been "saved." That is a foreign concept to me. Before attending an LDS ward, it never entered my mind that an individual saved Christian would ever be "exalted." That still doesn't register with me. I tend to think in terms of sanctification or being sanctified. That is a process that not all Christians commit to, but for those who do, it will continue into heaven as we worship and learn at the feet of the Master.

In our chat, while driving the other day we tried to think if we knew anyone - friend, family, neighbor, acquaintance, etc. who had only ever belonged to one church (congregation) or one group (organization or denomination) their entire lives as a Christian. We couldn't think of anyone except our LDS friends who, not being "converts" have only ever been members of the LDS church, or our Catholic friends here in the village who have always been Catholic, however nominally (in terms of participation). When we (my wife and I) moved from a Baptist group, to a Mennonite group, to another kind of Baptist group to a CCCC (Conservative Congregational Christian Conference) church we never thought that we were "converting" we were simply changing affiliation because of a physical move to an area where our former affiliation was not possible. That is why on this forum I have said that if I became a member of the LDS church I would not think of it as a conversion. It would either be a move from one Christian group to another, or from a Mennonite to an LDS affiliation within the greater Christian community. 

I also don't comprehend your definition of who is a true Christian since I only define being a true Christian as one who has repented, confessed, and claimed faith in the atonement of Christ as sufficient for declaring us righteous. No one who has not been declared righteous by God through His Son's sacrifice is a true Christian no matter how much someone tries to be "like Christ." As I have said before, I also in what may appear to be a contradiction believe Christ will welcome folks into eternity with him for His own reasons.

I say all of this only to demonstrate how very differently we think and use words. I am not teaching, lecturing, admonishing, telling you that you are wrong, or anything else. I simply think it is helpful for us, as we inevitably interact with others (at work, neighbors, at school, etc) to understand how folks think differently about very similar things. Better understanding makes for better communications. In my almost three years on this forum I have made many mistakes in what I thought you all individually and collectively believe. In the same way, those of you who have interacted with me about non-LDS Christians and my own specific beliefs have also made many mistakes in what you thought I or we believe. In that sense I think we each have much to learn from each other! 😄

Edited June 8, 2020 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi Ahab - I appreciate your reply and have a few thoughts about it from my own lived experience. My wife and I were talking about this on our way up to the states the other day. Random thoughts in no order:

I have only been baptized once, but have been a member of many different churches (individual congregations) in a number of different denominations. If I remember correctly in my 71 years I have been a member of fifteen different congregations (churches) three of whom were stand-alone - connected to no denomination and the others represented five different denominations. My ordination and licensure as a minister was recognized as authoritative by four of the denominations. I never went through the process of validation in the fifth denomination. There was no purpose or need to do so. All of those congregations accepted our prior baptism as valid before the Lord, and secondarily, valid for membership. 

I was not baptized for the purpose of joining a church. Neither have I ever baptized anyone for the purpose of them becoming a member of a church or denomination. Baptism is the consummate testimony of a relationship and beyond that, a covenant or covenants with Christ. While most, if not all denominations of which I am familiar require some form of baptism to  become a member, the idea of being baptized for the purpose of joining a church is foreign to me. As I said I have only been baptized once. If I walked down the street to join our local Roman Catholic church I would also not then have to be re-baptized. Having said all of that I do understand that the LDS church requires that someone be baptized again by their authority to be a member of that church (used in your sense). That is certainly within that specific group's prerogative. I don't question that if we are talking about church membership.  I can't say whether or not I would or could submit to being baptized again in order to join the LDS church. I certainly wouldn't be submitting to it to finally have a valid baptism. That would be totally foreign to me. I am not sure if I would pass an interview to be baptized in an LDS church with that understanding. Baptism means much much more to me than doing so to belong to a specific Christian group (notice I am working hard to avoid the term denomination for the LDS church - I know you don't like me doing that and out of respect I am trying to avoid it).

Also, I am not sure how to distinguish a true Christian from someone who hasn't been "saved." That is a foreign concept to me. Before attending an LDS ward, it never entered my mind that an individual saved Christian would ever be "exalted." That still doesn't register with me. I tend to think in terms of sanctification or being sanctified. That is a process that not all Christians commit to, but for those who do, it will continue into heaven as we worship and learn at the feet of the Master.

In our chat, while driving the other day we tried to think if we knew anyone - friend, family, neighbor, acquaintance, etc. who had only ever belonged to one church (congregation) or one group (organization or denomination) their entire lives as a Christian. We couldn't think of anyone except our LDS friends who, not being "converts" have only ever been members of the LDS church, or our Catholic friends here in the village who have always been Catholic, however nominally (in terms of participation). When we (my wife and I) moved from a Baptist group, to a Mennonite group, to another kind of Baptist group to a CCCC (Conservative Congregational Christian Conference) church we never thought that we were "converting" we were simply changing affiliation because of a physical move to an area where our former affiliation was not possible. That is why on this forum I have said that if I became a member of the LDS church I would not think of it as a conversion. It would either be a move from one Christian group to another, or from a Mennonite to an LDS affiliation within the greater Christian community. 

I also don't comprehend your definition of who is a true Christian since I only define being a true Christian as one who has repented, confessed, and claimed faith in the atonement of Christ as sufficient for declaring us righteous. No one who has not been declared righteous by God through His Son's sacrifice is a true Christian no matter how much someone tries to be "like Christ." As I have said before, I also in what may appear to be a contradiction believe Christ will welcome folks into eternity with him for His own reasons.

I say all of this only to demonstrate how very differently we think and use words. I am not teaching, lecturing, admonishing, telling you that you are wrong, or anything else. I simply think it is helpful for us, as we inevitably interact with others (at work, neighbors, at school, etc) to understand how folks think differently about very similar things. Better understanding makes for better communications. In my almost three years on this forum I have made many mistakes in what I thought you all individually and collectively believe. In the same way, those of you who have interacted with me about non-LDS Christians and my own specific beliefs have also made many mistakes in what you thought I or we believe. In that sense I think we each have much to learn from each other! 😄

These are merely your opinions. That's fine, but our opinions differ.

You state your opinion as universal Christian doctrine, but they are not

Catholicism does not accept LDS baptism, nor do we accept theirs.

https://youtu.be/E38hy4bZFAE

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Ahab - I appreciate your reply and have a few thoughts about it from my own lived experience. My wife and I were talking about this on our way up to the states the other day. Random thoughts in no order:

I have only been baptized once, but have been a member of many different churches (individual congregations) in a number of different denominations. If I remember correctly in my 71 years I have been a member of fifteen different congregations (churches) three of whom were stand-alone - connected to no denomination and the others represented five different denominations. My ordination and licensure as a minister was recognized as authoritative by four of the denominations. I never went through the process of validation in the fifth denomination. There was no purpose or need to do so. All of those congregations accepted our prior baptism as valid before the Lord, and secondarily, valid for membership. 

I was not baptized for the purpose of joining a church. Neither have I ever baptized anyone for the purpose of them becoming a member of a church or denomination. Baptism is the consummate testimony of a relationship and beyond that, a covenant or covenants with Christ. While most, if not all denominations of which I am familiar require some form of baptism to  become a member, the idea of being baptized for the purpose of joining a church is foreign to me. As I said I have only been baptized once. If I walked down the street to join our local Roman Catholic church I would also not then have to be re-baptized. Having said all of that I do understand that the LDS church requires that someone be baptized again by their authority to be a member of that church (used in your sense). That is certainly within that specific group's prerogative. I don't question that if we are talking about church membership.  I can't say whether or not I would or could submit to being baptized again in order to join the LDS church. I certainly wouldn't be submitting to it to finally have a valid baptism. That would be totally foreign to me. I am not sure if I would pass an interview to be baptized in an LDS church with that understanding. Baptism means much much more to me than doing so to belong to a specific Christian group (notice I am working hard to avoid the term denomination for the LDS church - I know you don't like me doing that and out of respect I am trying to avoid it).

Also, I am not sure how to distinguish a true Christian from someone who hasn't been "saved." That is a foreign concept to me. Before attending an LDS ward, it never entered my mind that an individual saved Christian would ever be "exalted." That still doesn't register with me. I tend to think in terms of sanctification or being sanctified. That is a process that not all Christians commit to, but for those who do, it will continue into heaven as we worship and learn at the feet of the Master.

In our chat, while driving the other day we tried to think if we knew anyone - friend, family, neighbor, acquaintance, etc. who had only ever belonged to one church (congregation) or one group (organization or denomination) their entire lives as a Christian. We couldn't think of anyone except our LDS friends who, not being "converts" have only ever been members of the LDS church, or our Catholic friends here in the village who have always been Catholic, however nominally (in terms of participation). When we (my wife and I) moved from a Baptist group, to a Mennonite group, to another kind of Baptist group to a CCCC (Conservative Congregational Christian Conference) church we never thought that we were "converting" we were simply changing affiliation because of a physical move to an area where our former affiliation was not possible. That is why on this forum I have said that if I became a member of the LDS church I would not think of it as a conversion. It would either be a move from one Christian group to another, or from a Mennonite to an LDS affiliation within the greater Christian community. 

I also don't comprehend your definition of who is a true Christian since I only define being a true Christian as one who has repented, confessed, and claimed faith in the atonement of Christ as sufficient for declaring us righteous. No one who has not been declared righteous by God through His Son's sacrifice is a true Christian no matter how much someone tries to be "like Christ." As I have said before, I also in what may appear to be a contradiction believe Christ will welcome folks into eternity with him for His own reasons.

I say all of this only to demonstrate how very differently we think and use words. I am not teaching, lecturing, admonishing, telling you that you are wrong, or anything else. I simply think it is helpful for us, as we inevitably interact with others (at work, neighbors, at school, etc) to understand how folks think differently about very similar things. Better understanding makes for better communications. In my almost three years on this forum I have made many mistakes in what I thought you all individually and collectively believe. In the same way, those of you who have interacted with me about non-LDS Christians and my own specific beliefs have also made many mistakes in what you thought I or we believe. In that sense I think we each have much to learn from each other! 😄

Navidad, there was no need for your post that I am now quoting.  I was already aware that we see things differently and I believe I understand your beliefs as well as if not better than you understand my beliefs. And when I say my beliefs I am referring to beliefs which I believe are in agreement with the true gospel of Jesus Christ as well as what is taught by the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  

I was also already aware that many of your beliefs are in agreement with the teachings of people who are not members of the true church of Jesus Christ, and that there are many churches or members of churches who believe that what you believe is all that is required for salvation.  For many, true beliefs are all that is needed, and many of them agree on many issues which they believe are true. But that doesn't mean that what you or they believe is really the truth.

I had a thought while conversing with you that I think conveys the point I have been trying to get across to you, and although I've already shared it with you I would like to say it again while asking you to think about it some more.

The only people who are fully saved are those who belong to the true church of Jesus Christ. And the only way to become a member of the true church is to receive the ordinances from members of that church who have our Lord's authority to accept and confirm someone as a member of that church.  No other church or member of a church can do that with our Lord's authority because no other church or Christian has our Lord's authority to do that.

I doubt that anything I have said will change your mind but it would be nice if you could at least understand what I have said while realizing that to me and many other people what I have said is true even though you do not agree.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ahab

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Ahab - I appreciate your reply and have a few thoughts about it from my own lived experience. My wife and I were talking about this on our way up to the states the other day. Random thoughts in no order:

I have only been baptized once, but have been a member of many different churches (individual congregations) in a number of different denominations. If I remember correctly in my 71 years I have been a member of fifteen different congregations (churches) three of whom were stand-alone - connected to no denomination and the others represented five different denominations. My ordination and licensure as a minister was recognized as authoritative by four of the denominations. I never went through the process of validation in the fifth denomination. There was no purpose or need to do so. All of those congregations accepted our prior baptism as valid before the Lord, and secondarily, valid for membership. 

I was not baptized for the purpose of joining a church. Neither have I ever baptized anyone for the purpose of them becoming a member of a church or denomination. Baptism is the consummate testimony of a relationship and beyond that, a covenant or covenants with Christ. While most, if not all denominations of which I am familiar require some form of baptism to  become a member, the idea of being baptized for the purpose of joining a church is foreign to me. As I said I have only been baptized once. If I walked down the street to join our local Roman Catholic church I would also not then have to be re-baptized. Having said all of that I do understand that the LDS church requires that someone be baptized again by their authority to be a member of that church (used in your sense). That is certainly within that specific group's prerogative. I don't question that if we are talking about church membership.  I can't say whether or not I would or could submit to being baptized again in order to join the LDS church. I certainly wouldn't be submitting to it to finally have a valid baptism. That would be totally foreign to me. I am not sure if I would pass an interview to be baptized in an LDS church with that understanding. Baptism means much much more to me than doing so to belong to a specific Christian group (notice I am working hard to avoid the term denomination for the LDS church - I know you don't like me doing that and out of respect I am trying to avoid it).

Also, I am not sure how to distinguish a true Christian from someone who hasn't been "saved." That is a foreign concept to me. Before attending an LDS ward, it never entered my mind that an individual saved Christian would ever be "exalted." That still doesn't register with me. I tend to think in terms of sanctification or being sanctified. That is a process that not all Christians commit to, but for those who do, it will continue into heaven as we worship and learn at the feet of the Master.

In our chat, while driving the other day we tried to think if we knew anyone - friend, family, neighbor, acquaintance, etc. who had only ever belonged to one church (congregation) or one group (organization or denomination) their entire lives as a Christian. We couldn't think of anyone except our LDS friends who, not being "converts" have only ever been members of the LDS church, or our Catholic friends here in the village who have always been Catholic, however nominally (in terms of participation). When we (my wife and I) moved from a Baptist group, to a Mennonite group, to another kind of Baptist group to a CCCC (Conservative Congregational Christian Conference) church we never thought that we were "converting" we were simply changing affiliation because of a physical move to an area where our former affiliation was not possible. That is why on this forum I have said that if I became a member of the LDS church I would not think of it as a conversion. It would either be a move from one Christian group to another, or from a Mennonite to an LDS affiliation within the greater Christian community. 

I also don't comprehend your definition of who is a true Christian since I only define being a true Christian as one who has repented, confessed, and claimed faith in the atonement of Christ as sufficient for declaring us righteous. No one who has not been declared righteous by God through His Son's sacrifice is a true Christian no matter how much someone tries to be "like Christ." As I have said before, I also in what may appear to be a contradiction believe Christ will welcome folks into eternity with him for His own reasons.

I say all of this only to demonstrate how very differently we think and use words. I am not teaching, lecturing, admonishing, telling you that you are wrong, or anything else. I simply think it is helpful for us, as we inevitably interact with others (at work, neighbors, at school, etc) to understand how folks think differently about very similar things. Better understanding makes for better communications. In my almost three years on this forum I have made many mistakes in what I thought you all individually and collectively believe. In the same way, those of you who have interacted with me about non-LDS Christians and my own specific beliefs have also made many mistakes in what you thought I or we believe. In that sense I think we each have much to learn from each other! 😄

I am a simple man so I want to want to lay this out in a simple manner. Until you have a witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that it is His church and that everything He says in the Doctrine and Covenants 1 is true, you won't understand us.

Edited June 9, 2020 by rodheadlee

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Baptism means much much more to me than doing so to belong to a specific Christian group (notice I am working hard to avoid the term denomination for the LDS church - I know you don't like me doing that and out of respect I am trying to avoid it).

So glad you didn't mention it!

 

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I am a simple man so I want to want to lay this out in a simple manner. Until you have a witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that it is His church and that everything He says in the Doctrine and Covenants 1 is true, you won't understand us.

Underline, bold, 50 point type in red ink!!

These are not decisions we have made, this is what we accept with certainty because we have been called by God to this church.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

These are merely your opinions. That's fine, but our opinions differ.

You state your opinion as universal Christian doctrine, but they are not

Catholicism does not accept LDS baptism, nor do we accept theirs.

https://youtu.be/E38hy4bZFAE

 

I haven't stated my beliefs as anything other than my own. I am not sure how you have concluded that I am stating my "opinion" as universal Christian doctrine. They are my own and nothing more. I don't how you came to that conclusion!