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What Can the Church do to Promote Anti-racism in America?


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4 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Some facts about the park police clearing Lafeyette Park. https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/6_2_20_statement_from_acting_chief_monahan.htm

No tear gas or rubber bullets.

"The United States Park Police (USPP) is committed to the peaceful expression of First Amendment rights. However, this past weekend’s demonstrations at Lafayette Park and across the National Mall included activities that were not part of a peaceful protest, which resulted in injuries to USPP officers in the line of duty, the destruction of public property and the defacing of memorials and monuments. During four days of demonstrations, 51 members of the USPP were injured; of those, 11 were transported to the hospital and released and three were admitted.

Multiple agencies assisted the USPP in responding to and quelling the acts of destruction and violence over the course of the weekend in order to protect citizens and property.

On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park.  At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.

To curtail the violence that was underway, the USPP, following established policy, issued three warnings over a loudspeaker to alert demonstrators on H Street to evacuate the area. Horse mounted patrol, Civil Disturbance Units and additional personnel were used to clear the area. As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls. No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park. Subsequently, the fence was installed.

Throughout the demonstrations, the USPP has not made any arrests. The USPP will always support peaceful assembly but cannot tolerate violence to citizens or officers or damage to our nation’s resources that we are entrusted to protect."

I don't buy it at all. All accounts and all the streams I saw showed a largely peaceful protest. The Arlington County police department which has a "mutual aid" agreement to assist D.C. was so incensed by the attack on the protesters (and presumably also that they were not informed in advance) that the county told all their officers to leave and come home. This is rearend-covering. I don't buy the coincidence that the clearing of Lafayette park and the surrounding area including attacking the clergy and lay members at St. John's church to get them off the premises occurred right before the President's walk to St. John's church so he could get a picture of himself holding a bible.

Caches of weapons? I don't buy that either. That area has been under suveillance for several nights and protesters started slipping in with armfuls of weapons. The D.C. protesters are particularly careful at policing their own for weapons because provoking the Secret Service too far would likely end in a massacre. As an addendum the Secret Service have been disciplined professionals from everything I have seen every time the protesters were outside the White House.

As to tear gas....maybe that is weasel wording. Was there some other agency that is not "assisting law enforcement" that fired it because tear gas WAS used though pepper bombs might have been used as well. I suppose it is possible the people who are riot experts on the scene and remote all got it wrong but I am inclined to trust the protesters over the department here since they have been proved untrustworthy in other portions of the statement.

I have a dark funny story about tear gas but I cannot come up with a way to tell it without violating board rules. It is not politics either.

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1 hour ago, alter idem said:

Tell that to the two cars they destroyed and torched and the buildings vandalized and windows broken. To me, it's seriously disturbing how some can be so destructive of property that did nothing to them. It's sick, imo. It shows how mindless and senseless a mob can become when they lose control. 

Which inevitably leads to the following response floating around the interwebs:
EZT8IUVWsAARjcl.jpg

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13 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this as I'm not comfortable with accepting the claim that race only became a part of the reason for slavery with the transatlantic slave trade. Slavery has been so prevalent throughout history, this seems a very narrow viewpoint of it. I believe freedom has been a rare condition for most humans in our world's  history. 

It's a really interesting topic, one that blew my mind away when we first touched on it in my Mesopotamian, Ancient Greece, and Ancient Rome history classes, before I even got to my early American history classes.  Historical slavery is a huge topic, but I think it's still really relevant for us to understand today.  :) 

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

That hits a little too close to home in SL where some old guy pulled out his bow and arrow to shoot at the protestors.  He looked like he didn't know how to handle the thing to me, and appeared a little shaky.  I felt bad for him, in spite of his murderous intents.  I'm going out a limb and say it wasn't Scott Lloyd. 

If that was supposed to be funny, it ... wasn't. <_<:rolleyes:

Edited by Kenngo1969
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20 minutes ago, alter idem said:

You don't think the riots are uncontrolled?  If they are controlled,  who's controlling them? As far as I know,  no one is controlling or orchestrating what's happening in these riots and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in arguing that the rioting in the many places it is happening, is under control. 

They are being controlled by a combination of the police, the national guard, and the peaceful protesters. "Uncontrolled" in this context implies widespread. If the rioting is more controlled it is in an smaller area and is not running rampant everywhere. That has been the case in most protests. If the rioting is "uncontrolled" the police should spend more manpower on that.

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4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Which inevitably leads to the following response floating around the interwebs:
EZT8IUVWsAARjcl.jpg

Will no one think of the lost property of the moneychangers????????

Edited by The Nehor
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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Will no one think of the lost property of the moneychangers????????

Not to mention

 ilx24lnehiyy.jpg?auto=webp&s=06af68da97f

 

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For those of you who have taken exception to my statements that the mob violence and looting need to stop, or else are excusing/rationalizing/justifying/condoning/endorsing the mob violence and looting, or else are suggesting that the mob violence and looting are rare/isolated/sporadic incidents, I invite you to take a look at these.

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 hours ago, Danzo said:

you want to know what is even more fun than the history of the Civil War?  Its a reading history books that have been written over the last 170 years about the civil war.  You can often tell more about the era during which the history book was written than about the history that was written about. 

Oh man, definitely!  😂

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Why does it seem controversial to denounce violent riots and looting? I support the peaceful protests but shouldn’t we all denounce the violent, lawless behavior? 

Does anyone have a summary of police reforms being promoted to help solve the problem of police brutality?

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Why does it seem controversial to denounce violent riots and looting? I support the peaceful protests but shouldn’t we all denounce the violent, lawless behavior? 

Does anyone have a summary of police reforms being promoted to help solve the problem of police brutality?

I think some of it is because emotions are tied up in it all.  Feelings of not being heard.  Instead of the pain felt for black lives the focus is on the violence.  Instead of people feeling the support of "I can see why you feel angry" they are feeling they are being told "anger is bad! You shouldn't feel that way."

I don't think it is so much that most agree with the violence (though many do) it is just that the violence of some is overshadowing the raw hurt of many.

But it's tough, because how do you listen to the feelings first when you are afraid of the violence?  I have to keep reminding myself I have only felt afraid of this for a week.  Others a life time.  So I don't agree with the violence in any way, but I am truly trying to listen first and put my fear and defensiveness second.  It's really tough.   

 

Edited by Rain
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For those of you who are prone to vilifying law enforcement, consider this:

Quote

David Dorn, a retired law enforcement official, was shot and killed early Tuesday morning after responding to a burglary alarm at Lee’s Pawn & Jewelry on Martin Luther King Drive in north St. Louis.

St. Louis Police Chief John Hayden confirmed the information during a press conference Tuesday. He said 55 businesses including the pawn shop reported property damage overnight following protests in downtown St. Louis over the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

“During a looting process, David Dorn was exercising law enforcement training that he learned here, so in his honor, we are wearing our mourning bands,” he said. 
...
St. Louis police officers received a call about a shooting at Lee’s around 2:30 a.m., according to a police report. Officers found Dorn, 77, on the sidewalk suffering from a gunshot wound to his torso. He was pronounced dead at the scene. 

Not that it should matter, but Mr. Dorn was black.

DavidDorn_0.jpg

My condolences to his family.

The mob violence and looting need to stop.

Thanks,

-Smac

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19 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think some of it is because emotions are tied up in it all.  Feelings of not being heard.  Instead of the pain felt for black lives the focus is on the violence.  Instead of people feeling the support of "I can see why you feel angry" they are feeling they are being told "anger is bad! You shouldn't feel that way."

I don't think it is so much that most agree with the violence (though many do) it is just that the violence of some is overshadowing the raw hurt of many.

But it's tough, because how do you listen to the feelings first when you are afraid of the violence?  I have to keep reminding myself I have only felt afraid of this for a week.  Others a life time.  So I don't agree with the violence in any way, but I am truly trying to listen first and put my fear and defensiveness second.  It's really tough.   

 

IMO everyone was united in horror about what happened to George Floyd. Left and right were united in this. Then, the violent riots started and took the focus off of what happened to George Floyd. 

Police reforms should be the headlines but they are not. That is a shame. 

I know the protest leaders in my community wanted and begged for peaceful protests. I think they should be listened to.

 

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20 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

IMO everyone was united in horror about what happened to George Floyd. Left and right were united in this. Then, the violent riots started and took the focus off of what happened to George Floyd. 

Police reforms should be the headlines but they are not. That is a shame. 

I know the protest leaders in my community wanted and begged for peaceful protests. I think they should be listened to.

 

I wonder what was different in your community and others. I hope someone is looking at that so we can maybe figure out what to do better.

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I've skimmed this long discussion and haven't seen anyone provide evidence for police killing blacks at a disproportionate rate when compared with whites. Apologies if I missed it somehow. These are statistics I have seen elsewhere:

 

Edited by Vellichor
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8 hours ago, Islander said:

I replied to Nehor on the same issue but here is a copy/paste

"In 1828, Congress passed a tariff of sixty-two percent which applied to nearly all imported goods. The purpose of the tariff was to protect Northern industries from low-priced imported goods. But it effectively increased the cost of goods for the South, which sans manufacturing capacity, relied heavily on imported goods.

At the same time, the tariff reduced the amount of British goods sold to the South, effectively making it more difficult for the British to pay for Southern cotton. It’s no wonder the South would refer to the Tariff of 1828 as the “Tariff of Abominations.”

In 1860, nearly all federal tax revenue was generated by tariffs (there were no personal or corporate income taxes). Southern states were paying the majority (approximately eighty percent) of the tariffs with an impending new tariff that would nearly triple the rate of taxation."

https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=004/llsl004.db&recNum=317

Even wikipedia (not the most trustworthy place for accurate info) has a decent summary on the subject (Tariff of Abomination).

See also McDonald, Forrest, States' Rights and the Union: Imperium in Imperio 1776–1876 (2000) 

 

Thank you.

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4 hours ago, smac97 said:

For those of you who have taken exception to my statements that the mob violence and looting need to stop, or else are excusing/rationalizing/justifying/condoning/endorsing the mob violence and looting, or else are suggesting that the mob violence and looting are rare/isolated/sporadic incidents, I invite you to take a look at these.

Thanks,

-Smac

What is your suggestion for those who want to peacefully demonstrate, but have others show up to their protests and riot and loot?

If they go home each time this happens to allow the police to focus on rioters and to demonstrate they don't condone the violence, at what point will they ever be allowed to actually protest when it becomes clear (as I think it already has) that anyone can shut down another's protest by tagging along and going berserk?

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Why does it seem controversial to denounce violent riots and looting? I support the peaceful protests but shouldn’t we all denounce the violent, lawless behavior? 

Does anyone have a summary of police reforms being promoted to help solve the problem of police brutality?

Are you okay with the peaceful protestors sticking around even though they are at times being confused with or being used to provide cover for those who are violent?

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3 hours ago, kllindley said:

I find it ironic that it is okay with many that violence and looting are happening because it is only being done by a small percentage of those involved.

I am not okay with the violence, but at this point with the way both the rioters and the police are reacting, I don't see how the peaceful protestors can be allowed to continue and somehow isolate themselves from the violence while somehow police can pinpoint and remove rioters.

I am not blaming police for this, it is a logistics issue to me in that the bad are using the good to shield themselves and I don't think the good should be held responsible for that if they are not actively aiding the violent to hide.

I am not giving rep points to Nehor because I agree with everything he says, I am giving them because he is making me think....just in case someone is assuming the rep points mean I am okay with the violence.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Why does it seem controversial to denounce violent riots and looting? I support the peaceful protests but shouldn’t we all denounce the violent, lawless behavior? 

Does anyone have a summary of police reforms being promoted to help solve the problem of police brutality?

Sure, some Minneapolis city council members are attempting to form a voting bloc to disband their police department and replace it with a more community focused force.

In San Francisco a firebrand DA is trying to disband the police union covering up and excusing misconduct. 

Arlington county commissioners withdrew their officers from D.C. in disgust at what the government was doing.

There has been limited movement on the federal level to cut off federal funding to police departments that do not meet certain standards.

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

IMO everyone was united in horror about what happened to George Floyd. Left and right were united in this. Then, the violent riots started and took the focus off of what happened to George Floyd. 

Police reforms should be the headlines but they are not. That is a shame. 

I know the protest leaders in my community wanted and begged for peaceful protests. I think they should be listened to.

Everyone was not united. There were those who reacted with dismissal. There was a coverup already in progress over the death that was only shut down by civilian video showing it was false.

The focus is not George Floyd. The focus is trying to make sure there are less George Floyds in the future. This is not an extended memorial service.

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45 minutes ago, Vellichor said:

I've skimmed this long discussion and haven't seen anyone provide evidence for police killing blacks at a disproportionate rate when compared with whites. Apologies if I missed it somehow. These are statistics I have seen elsewhere:

 

Yes, most people seeking dialogue in good faith start the factual basis of their discussion with a tweet backing them up. I mean, why look at the actual data from government and university studies? After all we have a tweet. It is not like they let anyone post just anything on there. Oh no. Wait. They do.

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you okay with the peaceful protestors sticking around even though they are at times being confused with or being used to provide cover for those who are violent?

Peaceful protests are great.To keep them peaceful, participants should follow the cities curfew laws set by local authorities. As the night wears on, the violence tends to increase. 

My local organizers encourage people to leave at curfew...many do and many don’t. The police are hanging back. They are not engaging the crowds. 

The protesters are policing their own crowd here. Stopped a man from burning a flag. Chased down a man tonight who fired shots in the air. People seem to have figured out how to kick out the ones causing issues.

Saturday night here was not great but it has improved. 

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Yeah, I am iffy on the curfews.  I get the violence is happening mainly at night and that would be a great way to curtail it, but there is from the peaceful protestors side a loss of momentum and pressure if they disband every day.  They risk the protest dying out before change is committed to in concrete ways.

Hopefully peaceful protestors can learn from each other how to effectively shut down violence from their end.

Edited by Calm
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Perhaps the church could offer a heartfelt apology to the world for its racist past and oppression of blacks.  That would be a start.

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