Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: There's nothing reasonable about it. You must suspend reason in order to adopt it or anything like it. It used to be the skies thundered because God was mad at something. God, the guy who was going to save people who died. No one knew what happened after death so they made it up so they could tell stories about that which they didn't know. you know, to come up with crazy stories--crazy in our day anyway. Sorry, I forgot for a moment that you and I do not agree on what reasonableness is. We do both agree that we all need someone to save us, though, don't we? Otherwise we would be stuck as we are and I don't think any of us would want that. Link to comment
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Sorry, I forgot for a moment that you and I do not agree on what reasonableness is. We do both agree that we all need someone to save us, though, don't we? Otherwise we would be stuck as we are and I don't think any of us would want that. We are as we are. We're not stuck. We can move around, change directions. You know whatever. There is no stuck, unless we deliberately stuck ourselves. We don't need saving. That's simply wishful thinking--hoping someday while some suffer eternally burning up other's get some sort of special life in a world and realm we can't see or comprehend. Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, stemelbow said: We are as we are. We're not stuck. We can move around, change directions. You know whatever. There is no stuck, unless we deliberately stuck ourselves. We don't need saving. That's simply wishful thinking--hoping someday while some suffer eternally burning up other's get some sort of special life in a world and realm we can't see or comprehend. Stuck as we are as in... mortal at which point we would be spirit only and destined to remain without a resurrected body, if we had no Savior to save us. with sin, which are basically eternal goof ups, if we had no Savior to save us. It's not so much a matter of where we are or where we would go or how we move around as much as it is about what we would be like if we had no Savior to save us and help us to be as good as we cam possibly be. Otherwise we would always be as we are now, or dead, even if we still had a spirit Link to comment
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Stuck as we are as in... mortal at which point we would be spirit only and destined to remain without a resurrected body, if we had no Savior to save us. with sin, which are basically eternal goof ups, if we had no Savior to save us. It's not so much a matter of where we are or where we would go or how we move around as much as it is about what we would be like if we had no Savior to save us and help us to be as good as we cam possibly be. Otherwise we would always be as we are now, or dead, even if we still had a spirit There's no evidence to suggest we have a spirit, that we are anything more than what our bodies are. Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 47 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Good point, back when Joseph was coming up with some of these stories it wasn't so crazy sounding. Today though, yep. Crazy. Isn't it time we move past religion and create a better world? These crazy nut jobby ideas, defended to death are causing too much nuttiness in our enlightened world. A stirring round of applause for your deep, profound, insightful, and completely original commentary 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: There's no evidence to suggest we have a spirit, that we are anything more than what our bodies are. There is evidence, but apparently you've never seen any of it, or did not recognize it as what it is. Someday you will see though, and you will remember that you once had another body. Link to comment
TheTanakas Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: The resurrection redeems everyone from physical death. Death is a separation... physical death a separation of a spirit from it's body, spiritual death a separation of a spirit from the Spirit of God. According to my understanding of church teachings, spiritual death is the consequence of all those who don't inherit eternal life (become joint heirs with Christ / achieve exaltation). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-11?lang=eng Some quotes:- The Atonement of Jesus Christ redeems those who are repentant and faithful from spiritual death. - If we live in harmony with the designs of our Heavenly Father, if our hearts are drawn out toward Him, and toward our Elder Brother, the Son of God, our glorious Redeemer, through Him we are raised not only from the dead, but are also redeemed, or may be redeemed, from spiritual death, and be brought back into the presence of God. - Through the Atonement and our faithfulness, we can become joint heirs with Jesus Christ. - What must we do to overcome spiritual death? - How does partaking of the sacrament help us overcome spiritual death? Peter Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 17 hours ago, TheTanakas said: According to my understanding of church teachings, spiritual death is the consequence of all those who don't inherit eternal life (become joint heirs with Christ / achieve exaltation). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-11?lang=eng Some quotes:- The Atonement of Jesus Christ redeems those who are repentant and faithful from spiritual death. - If we live in harmony with the designs of our Heavenly Father, if our hearts are drawn out toward Him, and toward our Elder Brother, the Son of God, our glorious Redeemer, through Him we are raised not only from the dead, but are also redeemed, or may be redeemed, from spiritual death, and be brought back into the presence of God. - Through the Atonement and our faithfulness, we can become joint heirs with Jesus Christ. - What must we do to overcome spiritual death? - How does partaking of the sacrament help us overcome spiritual death? Peter Right, a person is either spiritually dead or he/she isn't. If a person doesn't have eternal life then he/she is spiritually dead, of course, since there is no other alternative. Or to state it from the other perspective, if a person isn't spiritually dead then he/she has eternal life, of course, since there is no other alternative. I think some people don't understand this because they erroneously think that to be spiritually dead means to not exist, or to have no life at all, but that isn't what it means to be spiritually dead. Death is simply a separation... physical death a separation of a spirit from it's body, spiritual death a separation of a spirit from the Spirit of God. Link to comment
theplains Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, Ahab said: Death is simply a separation... physical death a separation of a spirit from it's body, spiritual death a separation of a spirit from the Spirit of God. I would say @TheTanakas is accurate in how he Interprets the church's teaching. But to summarize all he said in a shorter statement - Spiritual death means no eternal increase. Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, theplains said: I would say @TheTanakas is accurate in how he Interprets the church's teaching. But to summarize all he said in a shorter statement - Spiritual death means no eternal increase. That's an interesting extrapolation of his message, since I didn't see any words regarding eternal increase in what he was saying. Most messages about eternal life focus on being in the presence of God and what it means to be brought back into the presence of God. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, theplains said: I would say @TheTanakas is accurate in how he Interprets the church's teaching. But to summarize all he said in a shorter statement - Spiritual death means no eternal increase. And you are an authority on how the church’s teachings should be interpreted...why? Link to comment
TheTanakas Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Calm said: And you are an authority on how the church’s teachings should be interpreted...why? Hi Calm, I'm not sure about Jim's particular sect of the LDS faith or Protestand/Catholic faith he belongs to, but my bishop did confirm the Joseph F. Smith teachings. There are 2 spiritual deaths - one of them being a state of 'no eternal increase' Peter Link to comment
Calm Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheTanakas said: Hi Calm, I'm not sure about Jim's particular sect of the LDS faith or Protestand/Catholic faith he belongs to, but my bishop did confirm the Joseph F. Smith teachings. There are 2 spiritual deaths - one of them being a state of 'no eternal increase' Peter He is not a member but he is constantly telling us what we believe. I don’t think it is wise to insist one knows better than a member how to interpret their teachings. I may post Catholic info from time to time as I have studied it some and find it highly admirable in many ways and I want to be sure Catholics are not misrepresented on this board or elsewhere, but it is always with the caveat I may be wrong and I hope the Catholic posters will correct me if I am wrong. ——— Yes, Joseph F Smith defined spiritual death in such a fashion. But it may not be what others understand spiritual death to be. Most I know not LDS see spiritual death as hell while most Saints I know see only sons of perdition as possibly completely cut off from God for eternity while all others are living in God’s kingdoms of glory. Myself, I have never understood why JFS would phrase belonging to a kingdom of glory that had at least some presence of God within it as spiritual death. God is present in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, the residents may not be exalted, but they have been purified and even glorified to some extent. It feels very black and white, in that unless one is exalted with eternal life one is dead. Why not simply Telestial or Terrestrial life is not as fulfilling a life or as deeply connected...the slums and suburbs of God’s full glory, not the cemeteries. If we are still connected to God in some fashion, to the font of life, how can we be called dead? I think the unique LDS usage of “dead” as in not dead, but just not completely connected to God is confusing to both members and no members from what I have seen. I feel a Princess Bride moment coming on with a “mostly dead” reference. Edited June 3, 2020 by Calm Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Calm said: He is not a member but he is constantly telling us what we believe. I don’t think it is wise to insist one knows better than a member how to interpret their teachings. I may post Catholic info from time to time as I have studied it some and find it highly admirable in many ways and I want to be sure Catholics are not misrepresented on this board or elsewhere, but it is always with the caveat I may be wrong and I hope the Catholic posters will correct me if I am wrong. ——— Yes, Joseph F Smith defined spiritual death in such a fashion. But it may not be what others understand spiritual death to be. Most I know not LDS see spiritual death as hell while most Saints I know see only sons of perdition as possibly completely cut off from God for eternity while all others are living in God’s kingdoms of glory. Myself, I have never understood why JFS would phrase belonging to a kingdom of glory that had at least some presence of God within it as spiritual death. God is present in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, the residents may not be exalted, but they have been purified and even glorified to some extent. It feels very black and white, in that unless one is exalted with eternal life one is dead. Why not simply Telestial or Terrestrial life is not as fulfilling a life or as deeply connected...the slums and suburbs of God’s full glory, not the cemeteries. If we are still connected to God in some fashion, to the font of life, how can we be called dead? I think the unique LDS usage of “dead” as in not dead, but just not completely connected to God is confusing to both members and no members from what I have seen. I feel a Princess Bride moment coming on with a “mostly dead” reference. The confusion can be cleared up by thinking of death as a separation rather than total annihilation, just as it helps to think of creation as a process of organizing already existing matter rather than making something from nothing. So when thinking about someone being only mostly dead instead of all the way dead, think of it as being mostly separated instead of totally separated. Edited June 3, 2020 by Ahab Link to comment
stemelbow Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 6/2/2020 at 4:12 PM, Ahab said: There is evidence, but apparently you've never seen any of it, or did not recognize it as what it is. Someday you will see though, and you will remember that you once had another body. What is the evidence? Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: What is the evidence? Our spirits are evidence that we have one. And those who saw the spirit of our Lord before he was resurrected with his body saw evidence that he had one. To see a spirit you simply need to see one. It's silly to suppose they don't exist simply because you haven't seen one, or don't remember that you have seen one. You were a spirit, a person without a mortal body, before you were born on this planet. And when you die, you will see that you are still a spirit, and simply do not have your mortal body. And you will stay that way until you are resurrected. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ahab said: confusion can be cleared up by thinking of death as a separation rather than total annihilation Which is not how most people think of as death, thus the confusion. Sure the confusion can be avoided if we always say “spiritual death, by which we mean separation from God and not destruction” (I have actually seen that happen a lot), but why not just say “separation from God” in the first place? Edited June 3, 2020 by Calm Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Calm said: Which is not how most people think of as death, thus the confusion. Sure the confusion can be avoided if we always say “spiritual death, by which we mean separation from God and not destruction” (I have actually seen that happen a lot.) We could also avoid some confusion if we just replaced the word death with separation, since that is what death is, but somehow I am getting the feeling that not everybody would go along with that. Death is just another one of those things we call words and to understand the word all we need is to understand what the word means. Link to comment
stemelbow Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 37 minutes ago, Ahab said: Our spirits are evidence that we have one. And those who saw the spirit of our Lord before he was resurrected with his body saw evidence that he had one. To see a spirit you simply need to see one. It's silly to suppose they don't exist simply because you haven't seen one, or don't remember that you have seen one. You were a spirit, a person without a mortal body, before you were born on this planet. And when you die, you will see that you are still a spirit, and simply do not have your mortal body. And you will stay that way until you are resurrected. None of that amounts to evidence. It's simply a matter of belief, or assimption. Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 16 hours ago, stemelbow said: None of that amounts to evidence. It's simply a matter of belief, or assimption. That is your opinion/belief and I respect your right to believe that. Link to comment
stemelbow Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: That is your opinion/belief and I respect your right to believe that. Sure. It is my opinion that no evidence is not evidence. Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Sure. It is my opinion that no evidence is not evidence. I'd prefer to think that you know what I meant. Link to comment
theplains Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 On 6/3/2020 at 7:20 PM, Calm said: Sure the confusion can be avoided if we always say “spiritual death, by which we mean separation from God and not destruction Based on your statement, the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants suffer spiritual death (a separation from God) because they do not live as exalted beings in his presence. Is that correct? Link to comment
Calm Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, theplains said: Based on your statement, the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants suffer spiritual death (a separation from God) because they do not live as exalted beings in his presence. Is that correct? Not for me. I don’t use spiritual death in that way. I believe it is too confusing and conveys the nuances of what life is like in all kingdoms of glory, sounds more like what many expect in the typical version of nonLDS Christian hell. I see no need for its use when we can just say the lesser two kingdoms are not blessed with the full presence of God even while being of glory. Edited June 6, 2020 by Calm 1 Link to comment
theplains Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 22 hours ago, Calm said: Not for me. I don’t use spiritual death in that way. I believe it is too confusing and conveys the nuances of what life is like in all kingdoms of glory, sounds more like what many expect in the typical version of nonLDS Christian hell. I see no need for its use when we can just say the lesser two kingdoms are not blessed with the full presence of God even while being of glory. How do you understand this passage? What is eternal life and why do those in the kingdom of the devil not obtain it? Alma 5:24-25, 28 - Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white? I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil ... Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Link to comment
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