Byu Declines Cares Act Funds

[Stargazer]

On 5/20/2020 at 12:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You have to allow for a strong sense of ethnocentrism among Mormons.  This is exacerbated by their constant suspicion of govt, having been heavily persecuted by govt in the dark past.  Indeed, some of them even think that it is they who help govt, not the other way around.  Govt is truly the "other" in their socio-political world.  The late Cleon Skousen was a strong proponent of that view, which indicates a good deal of quaint naivete.

Yes, the government is ALWAYS your friend. Even when it is being run by those who have only the interests of themselves and their friends at heart. We have nothing to fear.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, the government is ALWAYS your friend. Even when it is being run by those who have only the interests of themselves and their friends at heart. We have nothing to fear.

Yes, that is a prime example of the paranoia infecting American Mormon culture.  That would be understandable in non-democratic countries -- where the right to vote and actively participate in govt is not permitted.  In such cases, the govt is truly "other."  Whereas in America the govt is us.  We govern ourselves.  Or as Pogo Possum used to say, "We have met the enemy, and they is us."  Since most American Mormons seldom read or reflect on the U. S.  Constitution, nor on the 12th Article of Faith, nor pay any attention to the Brethren encouraging their participation in choosing candidates for govt office, this clinical paranoia is likely to continue unabated.

However, in many countries, Mormons are subject to authoritarian or dictatorial govt not answerable to the people (kind of like the Roman Imperium at the time of Jesus, or the Israelite monarchy under David & Solomon).  Foreign LDS members likely understand American exceptionalism from that vantage point, and can readily see why the U.S. Constitution is defined by LDS theology as an inspired document.  They probably wonder why American Mormons have so little respect for it.

[Jeanne]

I am happy and impressed to hear this great news.  Other church institutions that have great wealth should do the same and let government allocate monies to save small businesses and jobs

[longview]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

On 5/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

You have to allow for a strong sense of ethnocentrism among Mormons.  This is exacerbated by their constant suspicion of govt, having been heavily persecuted by govt in the dark past.  Indeed, some of them even think that it is they who help govt, not the other way around.  Govt is truly the "other" in their socio-political world.  The late Cleon Skousen was a strong proponent of that view, which indicates a good deal of quaint naivete.

Yes, the government is ALWAYS your friend. Even when it is being run by those who have only the interests of themselves and their friends at heart. We have nothing to fear.

Hillsdale College is an example of an institution that refuses to accept any kind of government funding.  Their website on financial aid explains why:

"Quality Education. Affordable Cost.
"But what makes Hillsdale different from so many other colleges and universities is the source of that financial aid.
"To maintain our institutional independence, we accept no state or federal funding—even indirectly in the form of student grants or loans. All of our financial aid packages are made possible by the gifts of hundreds of thousands of generous donors nationwide. Most of these supporters are neither alumni nor parents of graduates; they give because they believe in the need to teach the principles of liberty and independence that Hillsdale has taught and exemplified since its founding."

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Foreign LDS members likely understand American exceptionalism from that vantage point, and can readily see why the U.S. Constitution is defined by LDS theology as an inspired document.  They probably wonder why American Mormons have so little respect for it.

This is a jarring statement.  I am a US citizen with a deep love for the Constitution and the divine destiny of the American experience.  Overwhelming numbers of saints have maintained a stalwart defense and advocacy of God's Purpose for this great nation, including Ezra T Benson, David O'McKay, et al.

[The Nehor]

On 5/20/2020 at 6:03 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

You have to allow for a strong sense of ethnocentrism among Mormons.  This is exacerbated by their constant suspicion of govt, having been heavily persecuted by govt in the dark past.  Indeed, some of them even think that it is they who help govt, not the other way around.  Govt is truly the "other" in their socio-political world.  The late Cleon Skousen was a strong proponent of that view, which indicates a good deal of quaint naivete.

Many members of the Church in the US have a strange view of government. In some ways they are very patriotic and love the Constitution but hate the institutions run by it.

For a less polarizing example of this phenomenon meet the true Star Wars fan:

Quote

My girlfriend doesn’t understand what I see in Star Wars. We’ve had several soul-crushing arguments about what exactly makes this series so important to me, and every time I have found it more and more difficult to argue my case.
There is a diabolical twist to Star Wars fandom, you see, that defies comprehension, and yet is the life-blood of all Star Wars fans. It is this:
 
Star Wars fans hate Star Wars.
 
If you run into somebody who tells you they thought the franchise was quite enjoyable, and they very-much liked the originals as well as the prequels, and even own everything on DVD, and a few of the books, these imposters are not Star Wars Fans.
 
Star Wars fans hate Star Wars.
 
The primary fulcrum for the Star Wars fan’s hate (including my own) is George Lucas, creator of Star Wars. Unlike Trekkies/Trekkers who adore Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry, Star Wars fans hate the father of their obsession. We hate the fact that George Lucas got it wrong from the beginning, creating incest between Luke and Leia. We hate the fact that he wrenched Return of the Jedi off of Kashyyyk and set it on Endor with those tiny, furry Hobbits he called “Ewoks”, which is a syllabic anagram of Wookiee if you’re obsessed enough. We despise the entire existence of literally half of the Star Wars movies, blaming George Lucas’ greed and flawed ‘vision’ for everything.
 
Star Wars fans also hate the original Star Wars trilogy. We think Mark Hamill’s acting was whiny, the pacing was flawed, and Empire was better than Jedi, making the end of the series a let-down. We hate the way Boba Fett died, and we hate the cantankerous, arthritic duel between Vader and Obi-wan. We don’t understand why the storm-troopers can’t shoot worth a damn, and we don’t get why “an entire legion of [the Emperor’s] best troops”(ROTJ, Palpatine) can be overpowered by a tribal society of midget teddy-bears armed largely with rocks and twigs. Star Wars fans hate omnipotent war-machines that get their legs tangled in strings, or slip on logs. They hate Darth Vader’s face and that stupid harmonica thing he was playing. Star Wars fans hate the original Star Wars trilogy.
 
There is also, as you probably know, a series of Special Editions that have replaced the original Star Wars trilogy, and these are also hated by Star Wars fans with an even more scorching fervor. Star Wars fans hate the glaring CG changes made to scenes we already hated to begin with. We hate that Han Solo now killed Greedo in self-defense, and then stepped on Jabba the Hutt’s tail (which we liken to Carrot Top stepping on Fidel Castro’s tail). We hate the fact that the ghost of Alec Guinness (whose name is an anagram of Genuine Class, by the way) now stands next to Hayden Christensen (whose name I tried to re-arrange into a flattering anagram myself, but only came up with “Nn…Dense Chest Hair”). Star Wars fans are unsure if Fidel Castro has a tail or not, but we hate the Special Editions of the trilogy just the same.
 
There is of course also a prequel trilogy to Star Wars. It is newer, more epic, more expensive, and more visually stunning than the original trilogy. Star Wars fans know this, and so we hate it even more. We hate it with the burning passion of a setting pair of twin suns. Jar Jar Binks, Midichlorians, technology that is blatantly more sophisticated than the “later” original trilogy…we despise all of it. There’s nothing a Star Wars fan hates more than a Star Wars prequel. They demystified Boba Fett, contradicted countless lines in the original trilogy (Obi-Wan: “He was our only hope.” Yoda: “No…there is another.” Obi-Wan (not in script): “Oh, right, I held both of these kids as they were born in Episode 3. Sorry Yoda, I just plumb forgot!”)
 
Star Wars fans think Mark Ha…uh…Hayden Christensen’s acting was whiny. And the pacing was flawed.
 
Now that I have covered all of this, you can finally begin to compute why I can never prove to Emily that Star Wars is a monumental event worth devoting one’s life to. The very nature of the argument means I have to defend Star Wars, and since I am a Star Wars fan, I don’t actually understand how to do that.
 
Maybe I’ll put it like this. To be a Star Wars fan, one must possess the ability to see a million different failures and downfalls, and then somehow assemble them into a greater picture of perfection. Every true Star Wars fan is a Luke Skywalker, looking at his twisted, evil father, and somehow seeing good.
 
My earlier statement needs slight revision. We hate everything about Star Wars.
 
But the idea of Star Wars…the idea we love.” 

They hate government and see it as pure evil. But the idea of constitutional government (almost inevitably some Platonic ideal that never existed even in the dreams of the Founders), they love that.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

................................

For a less polarizing example of this phenomenon meet the true Star Wars fan:

They hate government and see it as pure evil. But the idea of constitutional government (almost inevitably some Platonic ideal that never existed even in the dreams of the Founders), they love that.

One must take into account that Obi Wan is really the Yaqui sorcerer Don Juan, and Carlos Castaneda (or any reader, such as George Lucas, et al.) was his apprentice.  Moreover, Lucas abandoned his project before completion, thus leaving his successors to ignore the canon.  Star Wars was, of course, never about science fiction, but just about fantasy -- just like Grimm's fairy tales.

Likewise, American Mormons have imprinted in their minds an irrational, fantasy version of govt -- which can never be of the people, by the people, or for the people -- which leaves the Constitution hanging by a thread, twisting slowly, slowly in the wind.

[OGHoosier]

@The Nehor, that was beautiful. Seeing as I am one such fan, you have shown me myself. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Hillsdale College is an example of an institution that refuses to accept any kind of government funding.  Their website on financial aid explains why:

"Quality Education. Affordable Cost.
"But what makes Hillsdale different from so many other colleges and universities is the source of that financial aid.
"To maintain our institutional independence, we accept no state or federal funding—even indirectly in the form of student grants or loans. All of our financial aid packages are made possible by the gifts of hundreds of thousands of generous donors nationwide. Most of these supporters are neither alumni nor parents of graduates; they give because they believe in the need to teach the principles of liberty and independence that Hillsdale has taught and exemplified since its founding."

As a Vietnam Era veteran, I was eligible for and accepted monies from the G.I. bill to help pay for my college education.  Those funds were paid for by American taxpayers, and legislation for the monies allocated to the G.I. Bill came from a Congress elected by the people.  My late uncle, Woody Smith, who served as a bomber pilot in WW II, also received the G.I. Bill in  his day -- got him his master's degree, which greatly advanced his teaching career, which culminated in his being principal of Huntington Beach High School in California.  The Cleon Skousens of the world hate America and the U.S. Constitution, always have something negative to say about it, and do not regard the American people as worthy of anything but a sneer.

2 hours ago, longview said:

This is a jarring statement.  I am a US citizen with a deep love for the Constitution and the divine destiny of the American experience.  Overwhelming numbers of saints have maintained a stalwart defense and advocacy of God's Purpose for this great nation, including Ezra T Benson, David O'McKay, et al.

People prove their beliefs by their actions.  Too many American Mormons reject the Constitution and the rule of law.  Most of them have no idea what that even means.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As a Vietnam Era veteran, I was eligible for and accepted monies from the G.I. bill to help pay for my college education.  Those funds were paid for by American taxpayers, and legislation for the monies allocated to the G.I. Bill came from a Congress elected by the people.  My late uncle, Woody Smith, who served as a bomber pilot in WW II, also received the G.I. Bill in  his day -- got him his master's degree, which greatly advanced his teaching career, which culminated in his being principal of Huntington Beach High School in California.

Thank you for your service.  I agree veterans deserve benefits for having put their lives on the line, whether in battle or other areas of support.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Cleon Skousens of the world hate America and the U.S. Constitution, always have something negative to say about it, and do not regard the American people as worthy of anything but a sneer.

If you don't mind, could you provide a reference for C. Skousen''s most egregious statements against either the Constitution or the Republic.  I know he was fervently against communism.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

- - - the Constitution and the rule of law. - - -

Would you say the rule of law (and due process) was properly applied in the case of:

1. Kavanaugh v. Dr. Ford
2. Joe Biden v. Tara Reade

 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, longview said:

Thank you for your service.  I agree veterans deserve benefits for having put their lives on the line, whether in battle or other areas of support.

It wasn't so much deserved as it was a good investment in people, which more than paid for itself over time.

6 hours ago, longview said:

If you don't mind, could you provide a reference for C. Skousen''s most egregious statements against either the Constitution or the Republic.  I know he was fervently against communism.

I attended Skousen's lectures back in the 60s and 70s and personally took notes.  I first became aware of his work when I was an undergrad in political science at BYU.  I never heard him say anything, and never read anything by him which indicated either that he knew anything about American history and the Constitution or about communism.  Cleon is quoted as having said: "American slave children were freer than white non-slaves.^"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Cleon_Skousen

6 hours ago, longview said:

Would you say the rule of law (and due process) was properly applied in the case of:

1. Kavanaugh v. Dr. Ford
2. Joe Biden v. Tara Reade

Certainly not, and hypocrisy was rampant in both cases.  Such issues are largely determined by identity politics and tribalism.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, longview said:

Would you say the rule of law (and due process) was properly applied in the case of:

1. Kavanaugh v. Dr. Ford
2. Joe Biden v. Tara Reade

Neither of those are court cases. Why would due process apply?

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, that is a prime example of the paranoia infecting American Mormon culture. 

I'm not paranoid. I am a realist.

I remember the times when I've seen the police lie in their reports, and lie to my face and be almost immediately contradicted by events. I've run for public office and seen candidates modify their campaign rhetoric to fit their audience's prejudices, to the point of almost sounding like they had switched parties. I've seen elected politicians lie repeatedly.  For all of that, I trust the government as far as I can throw it, because it's made up of human beings who may or may not be honest, who are of variable dependability.  Trust, but verify, in other words.

And though I've been a member of the church for all of my adult life, I am not a member of some "American Mormon culture". 

Quote

That would be understandable in non-democratic countries -- where the right to vote and actively participate in govt is not permitted. 

Are you aware, that even in democratic countries there are problems with elections?  Recently New Jersey's vote-by-mail system has come under fire for some serious balloting irregularities, so much so that the NAACP is calling for an election to be thrown out for fraud.

Quote

In such cases, the govt is truly "other."

The government is not some pristine institution that is to be implicitly trusted at all times.  If you think it is to be trusted, I think you misread history very badly.  Let's start with the Utah War, with the US government sent troops to put down a nonexistent rebellion.  There are plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum who will point out how on many occasions the government was wrong, sometimes tragically wrong, in its actions (frequently they disagree on which actions were the wrong ones, but whatever). And were just talking about one of the best governments on the face of the earth. It is far from perfect.  

Quote

  Whereas in America the govt is us.  We govern ourselves.  Or as Pogo Possum used to say, "We have met the enemy, and they is us." 

Truer words were never spoken! But we who "govern ourselves" sometimes elect the wrong people, don't we? 

Quote

Since most American Mormons seldom read or reflect on the U. S.  Constitution, nor on the 12th Article of Faith, nor pay any attention to the Brethren encouraging their participation in choosing candidates for govt office, this clinical paranoia is likely to continue unabated.

Do you have a statistical analysis to just how seldom American Mormons read or think about the US Constitution?  I didn't think you did -- is this just your opinion, based on the fact that some of those "American Mormons" don't agree with you politically?  Although I do remember my wife and I giving a presentation on the 12th Article of Faith to the older Primary kids, where we handed out copies of the US Constitution to the children for them to take home, and then had the Primary President get all worried that we were handing out partisan political tracts -- because apparently she didn't know what the Constitution was, and thought it was a right-wing polemic. Or something. So maybe there was some ignorance there. 

The difference between your experience and mine is this: I have sat in priesthood meetings and listened to many brethren speak respectfully and reverently about the Constitution. These were men who were familiar with the Constitution, recognized it as divinely inspired, and were willing to speak in its defense.  And in other circumstances I've heard sisters speak just as respectfully and reverently about the Constitution as well.  Before I even met her, the first time I heard my late wife speak it was in a Fast and Testimony meeting, where she bore testimony of, among other things, the divinely inspired US Constitution. 

And many of these people with respect for the US Constitution were convinced that the government was not necessarily to be trusted, and was sometimes acting wrongly. And needed to be watched like a hawk.

Quote

However, in many countries, Mormons are subject to authoritarian or dictatorial govt not answerable to the people (kind of like the Roman Imperium at the time of Jesus, or the Israelite monarchy under David & Solomon).  Foreign LDS members likely understand American exceptionalism from that vantage point, and can readily see why the U.S. Constitution is defined by LDS theology as an inspired document.  They probably wonder why American Mormons have so little respect for it.

I do not understand why you think "American Mormons" have little respect for it.  Maybe you're in the wrong ward. 

And I've been here in England for a few years now, and I can count on the fingers of both feet the number of times some LDS member here has wondered aloud why "American Mormons" have so little respect for the US Consitution.

I say again: The Constitution of the United States of America is a divinely-inspired document.  I took an oath to defend it, and was never released from that oath.  But because I do not necessarily trust my fellow human beings implicitly, neither do I trust the government implicitly.  It is made up of human beings who have just as much free agency as I have, and just as much capability of making mistakes as I do.  I cannot implicitly trust the government. ESPECIALLY when it is trying to do me a favor.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Stargazer

[longview]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Neither of those are court cases. Why would due process apply?

When accusations (or veiled attacks) are made in various venues.  Senate confirmation hearings.  Presidential campaigns.  News media.  Unpopular enterprises.  Etc.

[Storm Rider]

On 5/28/2020 at 10:40 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, that is a prime example of the paranoia infecting American Mormon culture.  That would be understandable in non-democratic countries -- where the right to vote and actively participate in govt is not permitted.  In such cases, the govt is truly "other."  Whereas in America the govt is us.  We govern ourselves.  Or as Pogo Possum used to say, "We have met the enemy, and they is us."  Since most American Mormons seldom read or reflect on the U. S.  Constitution, nor on the 12th Article of Faith, nor pay any attention to the Brethren encouraging their participation in choosing candidates for govt office, this clinical paranoia is likely to continue unabated.

However, in many countries, Mormons are subject to authoritarian or dictatorial govt not answerable to the people (kind of like the Roman Imperium at the time of Jesus, or the Israelite monarchy under David & Solomon).  Foreign LDS members likely understand American exceptionalism from that vantage point, and can readily see why the U.S. Constitution is defined by LDS theology as an inspired document.  They probably wonder why American Mormons have so little respect for it.

It is true that I have grown jaded. A vote for a candidate seems more a vote for her/his party that generally co-opts their initial intentions and turns each politician into a sycophant of their Party first and foremost. 

I wish I could point to a host of politicians that ignored their party when it came to what each felt was right and the agenda they ran their respective campaigns upon. But, I can't.  Off the top of my head I cannot think of one.  Let's stop this conversation now before it becomes political - for me, it is a pox on both national parties.  They each play pot to the other's kettle while squawking about how terrible the other is. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Storm Rider

[longview]

39 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I wish I could point to a host of politicians that ignored their party when it came to want each felt was right and the agenda they ran their respective campaigns upon. But, I can't

There has been a few in recent years that switched from one party to the other.  Both sides have been subjected to this.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

It is true that I have grown jaded. A vote for a candidate seems more a vote for her/his party that generally co-opts their initial intentions and turns each politician into a sycophant of their Party first and foremost. 

I wish I could point to a host of politicians that ignored their party when it came to want each felt was right and the agenda they ran their respective campaigns upon. But, I can't.  Off the top of my head I cannot think of one.  Let's stop this conversation now before it becomes political - for me, it is a pox on both national parties.  They each play pot to the other's kettle while squawking about how terrible the other is. 

There are some exceptions, but most of what you say is brutally true.  Welcome to Realpolitik.  Self-governance is never easy, but it is always better than the alternative.  Much of it has to do with the nature of the polity -- do your neighbors have their heads on straight?.  As Frederick Douglass pointed out:  "The life of the nation is secure only while the nation is honest, truthful, and virtuous."  I have a portrait of Douglass on the wall watching me as I work:

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not paranoid. I am a realist.

I remember the times when I've seen the police lie in their reports, and lie to my face and be almost immediately contradicted by events. I've run for public office and seen candidates modify their campaign rhetoric to fit their audience's prejudices, to the point of almost sounding like they had switched parties. I've seen elected politicians lie repeatedly.  For all of that, I trust the government as far as I can throw it, because it's made up of human beings who may or may not be honest, who are of variable dependability.  Trust, but verify, in other words.

And though I've been a member of the church for all of my adult life, I am not a member of some "American Mormon culture". 

Are you aware, that even in democratic countries there are problems with elections?  Recently New Jersey's vote-by-mail system has come under fire for some serious balloting irregularities, so much so that the NAACP is calling for an election to be thrown out for fraud.

The government is not some pristine institution that is to be implicitly trusted at all times.  If you think it is to be trusted, I think you misread history very badly.  Let's start with the Utah War, with the US government sent troops to put down a nonexistent rebellion.  There are plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum who will point out how on many occasions the government was wrong, sometimes tragically wrong, in its actions (frequently they disagree on which actions were the wrong ones, but whatever). And were just talking about one of the best governments on the face of the earth. It is far from perfect.  

Truer words were never spoken! But we who "govern ourselves" sometimes elect the wrong people, don't we? 

Do you have a statistical analysis to just how seldom American Mormons read or think about the US Constitution?  I didn't think you did -- is this just your opinion, based on the fact that some of those "American Mormons" don't agree with you politically?  Although I do remember my wife and I giving a presentation on the 12th Article of Faith to the older Primary kids, where we handed out copies of the US Constitution to the children for them to take home, and then had the Primary President get all worried that we were handing out partisan political tracts -- because apparently she didn't know what the Constitution was, and thought it was a right-wing polemic. Or something. So maybe there was some ignorance there. 

The difference between your experience and mine is this: I have sat in priesthood meetings and listened to many brethren speak respectfully and reverently about the Constitution. These were men who were familiar with the Constitution, recognized it as divinely inspired, and were willing to speak in its defense.  And in other circumstances I've heard sisters speak just as respectfully and reverently about the Constitution as well.  Before I even met her, the first time I heard my late wife speak it was in a Fast and Testimony meeting, where she bore testimony of, among other things, the divinely inspired US Constitution. 

And many of these people with respect for the US Constitution were convinced that the government was not necessarily to be trusted, and was sometimes acting wrongly. And needed to be watched like a hawk.

I do not understand why you think "American Mormons" have little respect for it.  Maybe you're in the wrong ward. 

And I've been here in England for a few years now, and I can count on the fingers of both feet the number of times some LDS member here has wondered aloud why "American Mormons" have so little respect for the US Consitution.

I say again: The Constitution of the United States of America is a divinely-inspired document.  I took an oath to defend it, and was never released from that oath.  But because I do not necessarily trust my fellow human beings implicitly, neither do I trust the government implicitly.  It is made up of human beings who have just as much free agency as I have, and just as much capability of making mistakes as I do.  I cannot implicitly trust the government. ESPECIALLY when it is trying to do me a favor.

Actions speak louder than words, Stargazer.  It is quite true that Mormons often claim that the U.S. Constitution is divinely inspired, but then they turn right around and flout it in practice, very much in favor of denying its provisions.  They seldom read or understand it.  Talk is cheap.

I spoke of Mormons living in totalitarian countries wondering why American Mormons do not really appreciate their govt.  You responded with the example of England, which was as wrong a comparison as you could make.   We got key provisions of our Constitution from the English Constitution, and our Founding Fathers were Englishmen who were deeply respectful of that source.  Most Americans are, for example, blissfully unaware that our Bill of Rights was taken directly from the English Bill of Rights passed into law by Parliament only a century earlier.  It was precisely the denial of those rights in the American colonies, along with the denial of representation in Parliament which so angered the Founders.  When King George III and Lord North said "Piffle," in response to our written complaints things got very ugly.  We were not a people to be toyed with.

Most American Mormons know nothing of American history and can't imagine that we have a deeper relationship with England than merely speaking a common tongue.  American Mormons don't understand participatory democracy well enough to consider themselves part of the govt which they so often criticize as the "other."  They are that govt, and they get the govt which they so richly deserve.  By default.

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actions speak louder than words, Stargazer.  It is quite true that Mormons often claim that the U.S. Constitution is divinely inspired, but then they turn right around and flout it in practice, very much in favor of denying its provisions.  They seldom read or understand it.  Talk is cheap.

I spoke of Mormons living in totalitarian countries wondering why American Mormons do not really appreciate their govt.  You responded with the example of England, which was as wrong a comparison as you could make.   We got key provisions of our Constitution from the English Constitution, and our Founding Fathers were Englishmen who were deeply respectful of that source.  Most Americans are, for example, blissfully unaware that our Bill of Rights was taken directly from the English Bill of Rights passed into law by Parliament only a century earlier.  It was precisely the denial of those rights in the American colonies, along with the denial of representation in Parliament which so angered the Founders.  When King George III and Lord North said "Piffle," in response to our written complaints things got very ugly.  We were not a people to be toyed with.

Most American Mormons know nothing of American history and can't imagine that we have a deeper relationship with England than merely speaking a common tongue.  American Mormons don't understand participatory democracy well enough to consider themselves part of the govt which they so often criticize as the "other."  They are that govt, and they get the govt which they so richly deserve.  By default.

You seem to have an ax to grind against "American Mormons."

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, longview said:

When accusations (or veiled attacks) are made in various venues.  Senate confirmation hearings.  Presidential campaigns.  News media.  Unpopular enterprises.  Etc.

There is no due process in the court of public opinion nor was their designed to be. Why complain it is not there when no one expect it to be there?

It can be very cruel. The one who suffered the most though:

Dr. Ford has been doxxed and harassed and threatened since she spoke up and due to this she has moved four times, lost her job, and has had to hire private security for her family's protection after she testified.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You seem to have an ax to grind against "American Mormons."

My neighbors are all wonderful, nice people, 99.9% of them American Mormons, as am I.  They'd do anything for me, and I for them.  My and their ancestors came West together by wagon train with Brother Brigham, and some later by handcart.  At different times, both my mother and I got our bachelor degrees from BYU -- hers in education, mine in political science.  My American Mormon professors there taught me valuable critical thinking skills (how to think for myself) and prepared me for life in the real world.

I never discuss politics with my American Mormon neighbors, and they have no idea what I think (unless I put a campaign sign on my lawn:  Just now I have a sign out for my cousin Spencer Cox, who is running for Governor).  During the years when I did my civic duty as an election clerk, they would see me at the local school helping them vote.   Getting too old for that now.

I have no ax to grind against my fellow American Mormons, but I understand their proclivities only too well, and I'm not going to lie about them.  I just wish that they understood their wonderful heritage in depth.  Ain't gonna happen.

[Stargazer]

 

Nevermind.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have no ax to grind against my fellow American Mormons, but I understand their proclivities only too well, and I'm not going to lie about them.  I just wish that they understood their wonderful heritage in depth.  Ain't gonna happen.

These benighted individuals that surround you probably understand the Constitution far better than their counterparts outside the Church.  If you're comparing them to yourself, of course they're going to come off as rubes and hicks.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

These benighted individuals that surround you probably understand the Constitution far better than their counterparts outside the Church.  If you're comparing them to yourself, of course they're going to come off as rubes and hicks.

It's all talk, but the proof is in the pudding.   Based on that, we do indeed have a nation of rubes and hicks.  As P. T. Barnum used to say, "There's one born every minute." 

I don't expect that situation to change.