We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[BlueDreams]

5 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Well, I read it as smug....and snarky. Just so you know it may have come across in a way you apparently did not intend. Different theories are being followed to try to deal with this, different countries chose different methods,  we'll have to wait to find out which worked best. This isn't over and we'll need accurate, fair, detailed reports to be able to compare and contrast numbers, something we don't have right now. I just think it's a little early to be declaring one way to be superior to others when we're still in the pandemic. 

Although I don't disagree that we'll need to wait and see to the very end, there are clear trends as to what's working in other nations. Countries that respond early, have high levels of compliance to quarantines and soial distancing measure, fast accurate and accesible testing, and solid contact tracing have had the best results so far. Examples of this include South Korea, New Zealand, and taiwan (there's others....those are just the ones I can think of off hand). I've also been checking in on the sweden numbers and it's so far been mixed results at best. Their deathrate, as pointed out, is disproportionate...the lead health expert there attributes a good amount of that to not shoring up their eldery care appropriately and getting them into hospital when it turns more severe. I do think Sweden has been politicized here, leading to people to either frame glowing reports of sweden as a model or to reactively trash it for its recklessness. I think that does lead to biased analyses. I do believe they're trying to contain the virus in a way that make sense for their culture and circumstance but currently with where they're at I don't think it could be described at least as an early success. And from what I understand of their model that leans heavily on people's trust in their governing leaders mixed with a stronger and universal healthcare system either way it's not a model that likely could be replicated in the states. 

 

With luv,

BD  

[rockpond]

I haven't read all seven pages so maybe this has been discussed already, but I'm curious how the logistics of this could work.

Our meetinghouse has four wards in it.  Probably about 1,000 active members.  We would need to have ten short sacrament meetings.  I suppose we could start at 8:00am and keep them to under 40 minutes to allow for ingress/egress with social distance.  We'd be done by 6:00pm.  Doesn't seem like a plan that many will get behind.  Lots of planning and communication work.  I think most will opt to continue home church if given the choice.

Another option might be to have a third of the ward attend each week and rotate.  Could be a nice way to get us meeting again.  I don't see the Colorado governor allowing gatherings of more than a hundred for a few more months.  But who knows... all our COVID numbers are trending in the right direction.

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I haven't read all seven pages so maybe this has been discussed already, but I'm curious how the logistics of this could work.

Our meetinghouse has four wards in it.  Probably about 1,000 active members.  We would need to have ten short sacrament meetings.  I suppose we could start at 8:00am and keep them to under 40 minutes to allow for ingress/egress with social distance.  We'd be done by 6:00pm.  Doesn't seem like a plan that many will get behind.  Lots of planning and communication work.  I think most will opt to continue home church if given the choice.

Another option might be to have a third of the ward attend each week and rotate.  Could be a nice way to get us meeting again.  I don't see the Colorado governor allowing gatherings of more than a hundred for a few more months.  But who knows... all our COVID numbers are trending in the right direction.

Could be that the families that are handling the church at home OK will continue to do so and those who don't have access to priesthood holders to administer the sacrament in the home will be the ones who will come to the church.

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I haven't read all seven pages so maybe this has been discussed already, but I'm curious how the logistics of this could work.

Our meetinghouse has four wards in it.  Probably about 1,000 active members.  We would need to have ten short sacrament meetings.  I suppose we could start at 8:00am and keep them to under 40 minutes to allow for ingress/egress with social distance.  We'd be done by 6:00pm.  Doesn't seem like a plan that many will get behind.  Lots of planning and communication work.  I think most will opt to continue home church if given the choice.

Another option might be to have a third of the ward attend each week and rotate.  Could be a nice way to get us meeting again.  I don't see the Colorado governor allowing gatherings of more than a hundred for a few more months.  But who knows... all our COVID numbers are trending in the right direction.

"Areas with large wards. Wards with large attendance at meetings may need to wait to begin holding meetings at the phase-2 level. These wards may also need to alternate weeks of attendance to accommodate all members. On Sundays when members are not participating at the meetinghouse, they can hold home worship services and, when authorized by the bishop, have the sacrament administered at home by a worthy priesthood holder."

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/multimedia/file/safely-return-to-church-meetings-activities-guidelines-2020.pdf

[bsjkki]

42 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I haven't read all seven pages so maybe this has been discussed already, but I'm curious how the logistics of this could work.

Our meetinghouse has four wards in it.  Probably about 1,000 active members.  We would need to have ten short sacrament meetings.  I suppose we could start at 8:00am and keep them to under 40 minutes to allow for ingress/egress with social distance.  We'd be done by 6:00pm.  Doesn't seem like a plan that many will get behind.  Lots of planning and communication work.  I think most will opt to continue home church if given the choice.

Another option might be to have a third of the ward attend each week and rotate.  Could be a nice way to get us meeting again.  I don't see the Colorado governor allowing gatherings of more than a hundred for a few more months.  But who knows... all our COVID numbers are trending in the right direction.

I don't see us in Colorado having church for months yet.

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

"Areas with large wards. Wards with large attendance at meetings may need to wait to begin holding meetings at the phase-2 level. These wards may also need to alternate weeks of attendance to accommodate all members. On Sundays when members are not participating at the meetinghouse, they can hold home worship services and, when authorized by the bishop, have the sacrament administered at home by a worthy priesthood holder."

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/multimedia/file/safely-return-to-church-meetings-activities-guidelines-2020.pdf

Thanks.  I guess I read through it too fast.

I'm so totally done with online meetings and want to interact in person that going back to church sounds good.  But, I also have loved our home church meeting.  I love having my kids play the hymns (out of the "easy" book) for our Sunday meetings.  I love that my sons are blessing and passing the sacrament to our family every week.  I love choosing topics for our sacrament meeting that fit our family personally and in the moment.  I've loved home church.  And I recognize that some of these things can/should continue even if we don't have sacrament meeting at home.

I also recognize that some in my ward (particularly a single sister and the empty nesters) may not be having the same experience as us and for them a return to church might be anxiously awaited.

[Danzo]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I am most concerned about the Spanish wards and branches in West Valley.   It is spreading like wild fire out there In the Hispanic community.  This is going to add a LOT more fuel.   The problem is that many in this community live in multi family homes, with their elderly parents living with them.  Even though vulnerable populations won’t be attending church, the virus is simply going to be delivered to their door step by those family members going to church.  If you live with a vulnerable person, don’t go to church.  Just don’t!
It will be interesting to see how many show up.  

 

That's a very racist statement

I assure you that people who speak Spanish are Just as intelligent as you are and can make decisions about their health without your help.

 

 

[rockpond]

Just now, bsjkki said:

I don't see us in Colorado having church for months yet.

Yeah... I think Gov Polis has said that when he lifts the "no more than 10" restriction it will be to a "no more than 50".  And then we'll probably sit there for at least a month.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I'm so totally done with online meetings and want to interact in person that going back to church sounds good. 

I don't like online meetings.  Since they've been optional I haven't "attended" any of them.

 

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I also have loved our home church meeting. 

Love them as well.  It's been nice to be able to concentrate on just my family.

 

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I also recognize that some in my ward (particularly a single sister and the empty nesters) may not be having the same experience as us and for them a return to church might be anxiously awaited.

It's a difficult balancing act for leaders.  How to allow families to concentrate on the gospel in their homes while providing some sort of structure for others to interact. 

 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

That's a very racist statement

I assure you that people who speak Spanish are Just as intelligent as you are and can make decisions about their health without your help.

I don't think that was racist.  Culturally, latino/hispanic families are more likely to be multi-generational in the same home.  And, given what has happened in senior care facilities with COVID, perhaps the multi-generational home is model that more of us should follow.

@pogi didn't say that they couldn't make intelligent decisions, just that if church restarts there will be a certain pressure to attend that could put people at risk.  In this discussion it is important to recognize that if a ward reconvenes, it's easy to say "everyone should make their own decision about attendance" but you cannot ignore the unspoken pressure to be there.  What if your son is assigned to administer the sacrament on a particular Sunday or if a Bishopric member asks you to speak, pray, lead/play music?  Many members don't like to decline such invitations or assignments.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I don't think that was racist.  Culturally, latino/hispanic families are more likely to be multi-generational in the same home.  And, given what has happened in senior care facilities with COVID, perhaps the multi-generational home is model that more of us should follow.

@pogi didn't say that they couldn't make intelligent decisions, just that if church restarts there will be a certain pressure to attend that could put people at risk.  In this discussion it is important to recognize that if a ward reconvenes, it's easy to say "everyone should make their own decision about attendance" but you cannot ignore the unspoken pressure to be there.  What if your son is assigned to administer the sacrament on a particular Sunday or if a Bishopric member asks you to speak, pray, lead/play music?  Many members don't like to decline such invitations or assignments.

What I don't get is everyone's judgment on what risks are acceptable and what risks are not acceptable.   We should treat people like adults and not turn people into infants that need to be told what to do for their own good.

Being an "essential worker" I have been seeing people and interviewing them uninterrupted since the start of the Corona virus thing.

I have notice a curious trend.  People who are supposedly "high risk" (elderly) don't really mind coming in here without a mask.  When I ask them about it, they usually same something like, "when it's my time, its my time".

Its the young and healthy that seem to be the most scared.  

Its also funny to notice the people who come in wearing a mask and then ask if it is ok to take it off when they come in my office.  For them it is more important to be seen wearing the mask outside where there is little risk of transmission but they are seen than to wear the mask when they are indoors where the risk is much higher

I work with many immigrants from Spanish speaking countries who assure me that going outside in this pandemic is one of the least risky things they have done in their life.  Dodging drug dealers, starving without food or medicine, domestic violence and corrupt officials has a much higher fatality rate then the off chance they may die of a cough.

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Danzo said:

That's a very racist statement

I assure you that people who speak Spanish are Just as intelligent as you are and can make decisions about their health without your help.

 

 

Excuse me Danzo?  I thought you would know me better by now.  I have no idea where you are coming from.  When did I make any comments about their intelligence?   Is the county being racist too for giving extra attention, concern, outreach, and education to that population?  This has nothing to do with intelligence, it's about controlling an outbreak and protecting high risk populations.  It's data based.  If anything, my comment was more directed at the Church's lack of guidance in recommending that people not attend church if someone in their home is vulnerable.  If the church will not say it, I sure as heck will.  I feel it is my moral obligation as a public health nurse to educate about risk and to be an advocate for vulnerable populations.  

What part was racist exactly?  Stating that I am concerned for that population?  We do track data based on ethnicity in the county, and the Hispanic population far outnumbered other ethnic groups until just recently, now Pacific Islanders are leading the group with Black or African Americans about on par with Hispanics/Latinos now.  We have done much outreach to that community and it seems to be working, but the numbers are still very high.  We also know that West Valley is a hot spot for Covid.  Am I not right to be concerned that Spanish wards and branches in West Valley are going to see outbreaks?  Am I not right to be concernced that church-goers may bring the virus home to their parents who live with them (which is very common in that population to have multi-family homes)? 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by pogi

[provoman]

34 minutes ago, Danzo said:

That's a very racist statement

I assure you that people who speak Spanish are Just as intelligent as you are and can make decisions about their health without your help.

 

 

I also disagree. The part about Latino Families living in multi-generations was on Utah news last night.

 

As for part aboutvstay home, nothing rascist in pogi using personal knowledge/experience to provide advice

[MiserereNobis]

14 minutes ago, Danzo said:

then the off chance they may die of a cough.

I'm not addressing any other part of your post but this one. You might want to go read accounts of what it is like to die of covid. Read what nurses and doctors have to say about their experiences trying to treat people. Read the stories of people whose family members have died. It is terrible. Dismissing it as "dying of a cough" shows you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to this disease.

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Excuse me Danzo?  I thought you would know me better by now.  I have no idea where you are coming from.  When did I make any comments about their intelligence?   Is the county being racist too for giving extra attention, concern, outreach, and education to that population?  This has nothing to do with intelligence.   If anything, my comment was more directed at the Church's lack of guidance in recommending that people not attend church if someone in their home is vulnerable.  If the church will not say it, I sure as heck will.  I feel it is my moral obligation as a public health nurse to educate about risk and to be an advocate for vulnerable populations.  

What part was racist exactly?  Stating that I am concerned for that population?  We do track data based on ethnicity in the county, and the Hispanic population far outnumbered other ethnic groups until just recently, now Pacific Islanders are leading the group with Black or African Americans about on par with Hispanics/Latinos now.  We have done much outreach to that community and it seems to be working, but the numbers are still very high.  We also know that West Valley is a hot spot for Covid.  Am I not right to be concerned that Spanish wards and branches in West Valley are going to see outbreaks?  Am I not right to be concernced that church-goers may bring the virus home to their parents who live with them (which is very common in that population to have multi-family homes)? 

 

 

Dividing people into groups like "Hispanic" "Black" "Pacific Islanders", etc is the very definition of racism.  What is "Hispanic/latino" anyway?  Someone from Spain? someone from Brasil?  Native american who speaks Spanish?  Someone from the Dominican republic, Hispanic or African?

Its just an excuse to put people in a box to judge them, or classify them without getting to know them.  Once we have properly put them into a category we can then be concerned about them and help them out (as a category, not as individuals)

 

 

 

[Rain]

39 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I don't think that was racist.  Culturally, latino/hispanic families are more likely to be multi-generational in the same home.  And, given what has happened in senior care facilities with COVID, perhaps the multi-generational home is model that more of us should follow.

@pogi didn't say that they couldn't make intelligent decisions, just that if church restarts there will be a certain pressure to attend that could put people at risk.  In this discussion it is important to recognize that if a ward reconvenes, it's easy to say "everyone should make their own decision about attendance" but you cannot ignore the unspoken pressure to be there.  What if your son is assigned to administer the sacrament on a particular Sunday or if a Bishopric member asks you to speak, pray, lead/play music?  Many members don't like to decline such invitations or assignments.

Yes, and you can tell the leaders had this concern since because they asked the leaders to make sure that others didn't feel pressured to attend if this fit them.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Rain

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Dividing people into groups like "Hispanic" "Black" "Pacific Islanders", etc is the very definition of racism.  What is "Hispanic/latino" anyway?  Someone from Spain? someone from Brasil?  Native american who speaks Spanish?  Someone from the Dominican republic, Hispanic or African?

Its just an excuse to put people in a box to judge them, or classify them without getting to know them.  Once we have properly put them into a category we can then be concerned about them and help them out (as a category, not as individuals)

We're discussing a medical condition that has shown that different races have higher risk factors.

The Mayo Clinic lists being black as a risk factor for sickle cell anemia. Is the Mayo Clinic racist?

[Danzo]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

I'm not addressing any other part of your post but this one. You might want to go read accounts of what it is like to die of covid. Read what nurses and doctors have to say about their experiences trying to treat people. Read the stories of people whose family members have died. It is terrible. Dismissing it as "dying of a cough" shows you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to this disease.

Death by pneumonia. I have been around people who are dying or who have died of many different things, left sided heart failure is similar, but takes more time, on guy I was visiting took several weeks after being taken off of life support.  It is rarely pleasant. 

Dying is a risk we take for living.  Perhaps some people have a different point of view about living vs dying. 

What is worse, dying by pneumonia surrounded by loved ones after a long life or being found dead in your house after spending months or years alone?

By isolating people we may be prolonging life, but are they really living?

[Danzo]

14 minutes ago, provoman said:

I also disagree. The part about Latino Families living in multi-generations was on Utah news last night.

 

Just because the news is racist (and wrong) doesn't make it right.

Some "Latino (whatever that means)s live in multi generation families.  Some non "Latino's" do as well.

Many "Latino's" live by themselves. Some just live with the kids (like my "latino" family).

 

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Dividing people into groups like "Hispanic" "Black" "Pacific Islanders", etc is the very definition of racism.  What is "Hispanic/latino" anyway?  Someone from Spain? someone from Brasil?  Native american who speaks Spanish?  Someone from the Dominican republic, Hispanic or African?

Its just an excuse to put people in a box to judge them, or classify them without getting to know them.  Once we have properly put them into a category we can then be concerned about them and help them out (as a category, not as individuals)

So you are accusing the County, State, and Federal governments of being racist then?  We all divide ourselves and other people into those groups.  I am probably no more racist than you or the rest of the world in that regard.  It is critical to do so in public health to identify high-risk and outbreak populations.  There may be ethno-cultural or even genetically related reasons for outbreaks in different populations that have nothing to do with intelligence.  Having that data helps us direct our response in the most effective way.  Without it, we can't know where to throw water on hot spots.  It is considered best practice throughout the medical community and is approved by all medical ethical standards and is not considered "racist" in a derogatory way, as you are using the term towards me.

You accused me of judging their intelligence.  You should retract that.  If your only accusation is that I have correctly identified that we are not all the same and do actually have different ethnicities/race, and that some populations are at greater risk than others, than I am guilty as charged.  

Edited May 21, 2020 by pogi

[provoman]

20 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Just because the news is racist (and wrong) doesn't make it right.

Some "Latino (whatever that means)s live in multi generation families.  Some non "Latino's" do as well.

Many "Latino's" live by themselves. Some just live with the kids (like my "latino" family).

 

you can choose to find offense. There is nothing racist about the facts. And we are not addressing facts or circumstances that are designed to promote racial superiority. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by provoman

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Death by pneumonia. I have been around people who are dying or who have died of many different things, left sided heart failure is similar, but takes more time, on guy I was visiting took several weeks after being taken off of life support.  It is rarely pleasant. 

Dying is a risk we take for living.  Perhaps some people have a different point of view about living vs dying. 

What is worse, dying by pneumonia surrounded by loved ones after a long life or being found dead in your house after spending months or years alone?

By isolating people we may be prolonging life, but are they really living?

Isolation usually only lasts around 2 weeks while the person is symptomatic.  Minimum of 10 days, but they have to have 3 days without symptoms.  That doesn't sound too unreasonable or inhibitive of "really living" to me. 

If I am dying of pneumonia from Covid, no way in hell will I be surrounded by loved ones.  Who in their right mind would want to risk spreading the disease that is killing them to their loved ones for a short moment of comfort?

[provoman]

25 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Dividing people into groups like "Hispanic" "Black" "Pacific Islanders", etc is the very definition of racism.  What is "Hispanic/latino" anyway?  Someone from Spain? someone from Brasil?  Native american who speaks Spanish?  Someone from the Dominican republic, Hispanic or African?

Its just an excuse to put people in a box to judge them, or classify them without getting to know them.  Once we have properly put them into a category we can then be concerned about them and help them out (as a category, not as individuals)

 

 

 

Are we using new speak?

From Meriam-Webster

Definition of racism

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Just because the news is racist (and wrong) doesn't make it right.

Some "Latino (whatever that means)s live in multi generation families.  Some non "Latino's" do as well.

Many "Latino's" live by themselves. Some just live with the kids (like my "latino" family).

But none of this addresses the question of who is more likely to live in multigenerational homes, culturally speaking.  There is nothing wrong with identifying different cultural practices/preferences.  It is not derogatory to say that Hispanics are more likely to live in multigenerational homes.  I personally feel that is admirable and something I loved and respected about the Philippine culture - they too are more likely to live in multigenerational homes.    No one is saying, "they all live in multigenerational homes", of course we recognize diversity even within ethnic populations, but understanding cultural trends helps us better direct our response to protect vulnerable populations. 

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, Danzo said:

What is "Hispanic/latino" anyway

The data is based on self-identification.  We ask every positive Covid case how they identify with race and ethnicity.  We can then take that data along with geographic data, to identify hot-spot communities and populations to target our response.  I guess you would accuse these people of being racist for self-identifying that way.  

Edited May 21, 2020 by pogi