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Nursing Home Immunity, for the Legal Scholars Out There.


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I would really appreciate some feedback from the learned legal people out there, this is very disturbing as i've worked in places like these.  Part of the reason I went into nursing was to take care of mom so she would never have to see the inside of one of these, this makes me sick, this is wrong on so many levels. 

https://coloradosun.com/2020/05/04/colorado-us-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-lawsuits/

https://time.com/5835228/nursing-homes-legal-immunity-coronavirus/

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There is a so-called nursing home in my ward in Provo, and they have had no problems.  Why?  Because they locked down early and maintain discipline.  The people in charge realize the stakes are high.  Indeed, Utah generally has a very small COVID-19 footprint.  Everyone is cooperating.  Maybe it is a Mormon thing.

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2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is a so-called nursing home in my ward in Provo, and they have had no problems.  Why?  Because they locked down early and maintain discipline.  The people in charge realize the stakes are high.  Indeed, Utah generally has a very small COVID-19 footprint.  Everyone is cooperating.  Maybe it is a Mormon thing.

That's fantastic, hope they keep it up.  If it is a Mormon thing even better, please keep setting a good example for everyone else.  This is disgusting, people are dying and now those driven by greed want to wash themselves of any responsibility whatsoever and pass the buck onto the nurses, CNA's and doctors even more.  If those lobbyists do win this one in the end it will wreck what lousy medical the USA has in places.  Those without kids will simply move around like they did during the last recession/depression, this time to dodge the liability imposed on them in addition to stagnating wages and costs of malpractice insurance. 

I'm not one to go on moral tangents, just not my thing but this is an exception.  Sooner or later we all become sick, grow old and die, people treat their families like garbage and think somehow it will never happen to them.  Thing is, facilities nowadays have more and more millenial drug addicts, you just don't hear about them.  I've seen my share, it's an eye opener.  Same deal with that, people think so long as their kid doesn't end up with an addiction issue it's not their problem till it does happen.  Even if they're well off it's a nightmare, it tears families apart.  You can be a selfish bachelor up to a point then you need a society to function.  People forget, once you anger people enough and destroy what society you have it takes a very, very long time to rebuild as well as reversing the anger that those who've been harmed feel towards everyone else.

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

I would really appreciate some feedback from the learned legal people out there, this is very disturbing as i've worked in places like these.  Part of the reason I went into nursing was to take care of mom so she would never have to see the inside of one of these, this makes me sick, this is wrong on so many levels. 

https://coloradosun.com/2020/05/04/colorado-us-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-lawsuits/

https://time.com/5835228/nursing-homes-legal-immunity-coronavirus/

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This was an unprecedented crisis and nursing homes should not be liable for events beyond their control, such as shortages of protective equipment and testing, shifting directives from authorities, and sicknesses that have decimated staffs.

This does make sense, but I think it is ridiculous to remove all possibility of criminal prosecution in the cases where it is the administration of the nursing home's fault, such as refusal to hire enough staff and properly train them.  The assisted living place my mom is at is hiring more staff and constantly training right now in order to prepare for when the virus will hit, as they anticipate it eventually will just as they have to quarantine a few times a year when the flu bug hits.  They are also sending out constant reminders to family and friends to be safe, no hugs to begin with and when that didn't work, visiting only through windows, and strict delivery rules.

Civil lawsuits are more iffy.  I can see a company being bankrupt having to deal with frivolous lawsuits and all those residents having to find new places to live, something that will dramatically affect the health of many residents.  Or driving prices of care out of the prices range of many residents.  I would like to see some protections in place, but if there is solid evidence of intentional neglect or harm, caregivers should not be insulated from negative consequences.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Calm said:

This does make sense, but I think it is ridiculous to remove all possibility of criminal prosecution in the cases where it is the administration of the nursing home's fault, such as refusal to hire enough staff and properly train them.  The assisted living place my mom is at is hiring more staff and constantly training right now in order to prepare for when the virus will hit, as they anticipate it eventually will just as they have to quarantine a few times a year when the flu bug hits.  They are also sending out constant reminders to family and friends to be safe, no hugs to begin with and when that didn't work, visiting only through windows, and strict delivery rules.

Civil lawsuits are more iffy.  I can see a company being bankrupt having to deal with frivolous lawsuits and all those residents having to find new places to live, something that will dramatically affect the health of many residents.  Or driving prices of care out of the prices range of many residents.  I would like to see some protections in place, but if there is solid evidence of intentional neglect or harm, caregivers should not be insulated from negative consequences.

That's what I'm getting at, the possibility of all liability being removed.  Happy to hear your mom is at a good place, a lot of them are quite bad.  When it's mines time I'll be getting in home care for when I can't be around.  Also yeah, there are a ton of bad nurses, cna's out there, throw the book at em.  What worries me is how a lot of places do try to pass the buck nowadays, i've seen it.  Pro tip, if your moms facility ever has agency people there?  Make friends with them.  They don't work there, they have no loyalty nor any reason to hide anything bad that happens there.  One facility here that lied to the state about having covid-19 positive residents and staff?  It was a cna working for an agency that snitched on em to a local news network anonymously. 

 

Edited by poptart
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, poptart said:

tip, if your moms facility ever has agency people there?

Mom is getting physical therapy right now.  I always ask doctors if they know of it and watch body language to see.  Most are very positive about it.  Only negative thing I heard was cost.  It has won many awards, from what I hear it is on the high end and lots of wealthy residents, so I suspect they get lots of oversight from fussy families and residents.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Mom is getting physical therapy right now.  I always ask doctors if they know of it and watch body language to see.  Most are very positive about it.  Only negative thing I heard was cost.  It has won many awards, from what I hear it is on the high end and lots of wealthy residents, so I suspect they get lots of oversight from fussy families and residents.

Ah, one of those places, ok then good choice.  You do your mom good by having her there, then again i'd expect that from the people here I talk to, unlike a lot of people i've met here stateside you guys put your money where your mouth is family wise.  Also yeah that's another good way to ensure care, fussy wealthy families and residents.  It's the medicare/medicaid places you have to watch out for.  Even some of the private pay places are bad, they take advantage of families that don't check on their relatives. 

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I would have preferred her with me, but she likes her independence and doesn't like our dog.

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On 5/17/2020 at 2:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe it is a Mormon thing.

Or it's a spread out thing.

New York, for example, has an estimated population of 19,453,561 and a land area of 54,555 square miles (356.6 people per square mile).

Utah has an estimated population of 3,205,958 and a land area of 84,899 square miles (37.8 people per square mile).

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36 minutes ago, Thinking said:

it's a spread out thing.

I am definitely not seeing everyone cooperating here, there is a significant "right to associate" etc. theme among some as well.  There are many who are though.  We may have also been benefited by what counties were hit hardest first being ones more willing to go under lockdown for political reasons (Park City area and Salt Lake).

The areas where I am seeing less cooperation haven't really been hit much yet and many are ticked offrestrictions that they see as appropriate for early hit counties were imposed on counties where they are very spread out naturally and lock down could have been put off in their view for another month easily.

My mom's home even though in a low infection area has banned nonessential doctor appts. which surprised me, but I am happy about and they insist on having residents take their bus to any appointment minimizing risk of them taking off for errands or being in an unsanitized vehicle.  When I get someone I know on the phone and they aren't busy, I am going to ask them how they address the more mobile residents that can drive themselves and might choose to walk out easily enough by taking their trackers off, putting them on their beds as if sleeping and heading out the back door.

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

I am definitely not seeing everyone cooperating, there is a significant "right to associate" etc. theme among some as well.  There are many who are though.  We may have also been benefited by what counties were hit hardest first being ones more willing to go under lockdown for political reasons (Park City area and Salt Lake).

That's what i'm seeing as well.  It's irritating, the trails close by here end up being closed early because so many people show up and not only don't wear masks, they disobey social distancing.  the parents are the worst about it, they let their children run everywhere and have this attitude of entitlement about them.  I know a lot of you are parents so I do try to keep my opinions to myself but i'd have thought something like this would have shaken off some of the entitlement American parents have when it comes to expecting society to do everything for them, guess I was wrong.  Biggest shocker for me is how in the wealthy part of town you see packs of little kids with no masks at all, the wealthy part of town.  Guess natural selection applies even to the privileged.   

Considering how a lot of hospitals are laying off personnel and cutting hours, lets see what happens when there's a spike and people end up in woefully understaffed hospitals.  Entitlement is expensive....

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Posted (edited)

My grandkids are sitting on opposite sides of the street to play dolls with their friends.  Lots of online gaming with each other as well.  I feel sorry for the only child for once.

I live in a mix of wealthy and lower income families.  Not seeing the wealthy being less cautious in my neighbourhood, but that might be due to the high percentage of college professors and medical professionals in the area.

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Calm said:

My grandkids are sitting on opposite sides of the street to play dolls with their friends.  Lots of online gaming with each other as well.  I feel sorry for the only child for once.

I live in a mix of wealthy and lower income families.  Not seeing the wealthy being less cautious in my neighbourhood, but that might be due to the high percentage of college professors and medical professionals in the area.

Same here.  Here's some food for thought, how healthy are the well off kids?  That's the thing, they do have access to better medical, food, etc.   The poorer kids I see?  Whelp, depends on how smart they and the parents are.  Some get it, a lot don't.  Real shocker for me is how so many parents don't even cook for their kids, it's all fast food/pre-made meals.  I don't know if it's cultural or what, from my own experience the caucasian relatives I have here are far, far removed lifestyle wise from the now deceased relatives I used to hear about growing up.  Obese, the mother/parents don't cook and yep, ranting on social media all day about how American society needs to do this and this and this because they're too busy.  One excuse after another yet no action on their part.  Oh and yeah, have to keep them pesky muslims and non Anglo peoples out of the USA.  The exception to that?  The Latter Day Saint relatives (whom they're not all that fond of either, cept me I love em.)

Moms side?  Yeah no problem there they're doing quite well.  Cousins kids are healthy, smart, and athletic, very much like a lot of my fathers family was in the 80s and 90s.  Also, medical out there and in a lot of CA is superb, so is UT from what i've heard.  Something that worries lots of people I know out in these small towns in the midwest, once the dust settles and people see these small communities that have little to no covid-19 deaths and small well equipped hospitals?  People may swarm those areas and ruin them not to mention possibly bring covid-19/whatever else they have with them. 

Edited by poptart
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10 minutes ago, poptart said:

Same here.  Here's some food for thought, how healthy are the well off kids?  That's the thing, they do have access to better medical, food, etc.   The poorer kids I see?  Whelp, depends on how smart they and the parents are.  Some get it, a lot don't.  Real shocker for me is how so many parents don't even cook for their kids, it's all fast food/pre-made meals.  I don't know if it's cultural or what, from my own experience the caucasian relatives I have here are far, far removed lifestyle wise from the now deceased relatives I used to hear about growing up.  Obese, the mother/parents don't cook and yep, ranting on social media all day about how American society needs to do this and this and this because they're too busy.  One excuse after another yet no action on their part.  Oh and yeah, have to keep them pesky muslims and non Anglo peoples out of the USA.  The exception to that?  The Latter Day Saint relatives (whom they're not all that fond of either, cept me I love em.)

Moms side?  Yeah no problem there they're doing quite well.  Cousins kids are healthy, smart, and athletic, very much like a lot of my fathers family was in the 80s and 90s.  Also, medical out there and in a lot of CA is superb, so is UT from what i've heard.  Something that worries lots of people I know out in these small towns in the midwest, once the dust settles and people see these small communities that have little to no covid-19 deaths and small well equipped hospitals?  People may swarm those areas and ruin them not to mention possibly bring covid-19/whatever else they have with them. 

To my bold in your comment. I wonder if children from the more well off aren't as immune as the poorer kids. Not saying poor are not clean, I just wonder if the poorer let their children get more dirty and play more or are not in a pristine and clean home, that has a housekeeper etc. I see how their immune systems could be built up even better than the rich kid that has likely been expected to look and be clean all the time. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

To my bold in your comment. I wonder if children from the more well off aren't as immune as the poorer kids. Not saying poor are not clean, I just wonder if the poorer let their children get more dirty and play more or are not in a pristine and clean home, that has a housekeeper etc. I see how their immune systems could be built up even better than the rich kid that has likely been expected to look and be clean all the time. 

 

Hmmm, good question.  I do think it depends on the kids.  I went from lower middle class to at times homeless because of my fathers alcoholism but I had a good mom.  Thing is, like the rest of her family she believed in healthy living and being active, I learned how to cook from her.  Lot of the poorer kids I'm used to seeing?  The Hispanic and SE. Asian kids usually do fine.  They're active, parents cook (Emphasis on the parents, not parent.....) and have childhoods that really remind me of mine, dirt poor, lots of fights but geez they're healthy.  I think a lot of it is cultural too, I have friends from E.Europe, the kids play a ton of sports, are healthy and very smart, one just got accepted into military school and has a bright future ahead of him. 

I really can't speak for kids here, my own life is so far removed from what they go through, even as a kid it was that way.  IRL I'll tell people what they want to hear to avoid trouble, more I hear about parental liability/mandatory reporter laws less I trust people here.  Nasty as this will sound, it's how I feel, families here sure bring a lot more liabilities than benefits anymore.  They're just so sheltered and entitled.

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3 hours ago, Thinking said:

Or it's a spread out thing.

New York, for example, has an estimated population of 19,453,561 and a land area of 54,555 square miles (356.6 people per square mile).

Utah has an estimated population of 3,205,958 and a land area of 84,899 square miles (37.8 people per square mile).

NYC is very compact, vertical rather than horizontal.  If you look at California, you have urban sprawl.  Yet California has a very high per capita rate of COVID-19.  Here in Utah, we don't.  Why would that be?

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7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

NYC is very compact, vertical rather than horizontal.  If you look at California, you have urban sprawl.  Yet California has a very high per capita rate of COVID-19.  Here in Utah, we don't.  Why would that be?

Oh that rate may soon be going up...a concert with Collin Raye scheduled in my nearby park on the 30th by a mayor from Kaysville that is going against Governor's orders and now church is on for active LDS in Utah. 

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27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

NYC is very compact, vertical rather than horizontal.  If you look at California, you have urban sprawl.  Yet California has a very high per capita rate of COVID-19.  Here in Utah, we don't.  Why would that be?

 

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh that rate may soon be going up...a concert with Collin Raye scheduled in my nearby park on the 30th by a mayor from Kaysville that is going against Governor's orders and now church is on for active LDS in Utah. 

Guess time will tell.

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12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

NYC is very compact, vertical rather than horizontal.  If you look at California, you have urban sprawl.  Yet California has a very high per capita rate of COVID-19.  Here in Utah, we don't.  Why would that be?

While California is not as vertical as New York, it is still more dense than Utah. The population is 39,512,223 in 163,696 square miles (241.4 people per square mile).

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This is not at all meant to be political. I found the information very interesting about what steps Florida took to protect seniors in nursing homes. Other states made different choices. I hope every state learns from the outcomes. I don't think there should be blanket immunity for nursing homes because they are an at risk population already and liability protections would put them more at risk for harm. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/coronavirus-crisis-ron-desantis-florida-covid-19-strategy/

From the section titled First Protect the Nursing Homes

"Florida, DeSantis notes, “required all staff and any worker that entered to be screened for COVID illness, temperature checks. Anybody that’s symptomatic would just simply not be allowed to go in.” And it required staff to wear PPE. “We put our money where our mouth is,” he continues. “We recognized that a lot of these facilities were just not prepared to deal with something like this. So we ended up sending a total of 10 million masks just to our long-term-care facilities, a million gloves, half a million face shields.”

Florida fortified the hospitals with PPE, too, but DeSantis realized that it wouldn’t do the hospitals any good if infection in the nursing homes ran out of control : “If I can send PPE to the nursing homes, and they can prevent an outbreak there, that’s going to do more to lower the burden on hospitals than me just sending them another 500,000 N95 masks.”  ...

"Mary Mayhew had daily calls with the hospitals, with people involved in discharge planning on the line. “Every day on these calls,” she says, “I would hear the same comments and questions around, we need to get these individuals returned back to the nursing home. We drew a hard line early on. I said repeatedly to the hospital, to the CEOs, to the discharge planners, to the chief medical officers, ‘I understand that for 20 years it’s been ingrained, especially through Medicare reimbursement policy, to get individuals in and out. That is not our focus today. I’m not going to send anyone back to a nursing home who has the slightest risk of being positive.’”

“What we said constantly is let’s not have two cases become 20 or five become 50,” she continues. “If you don’t manage this individual as you return them back, you will have far more being transferred back to the hospital.” Early on, when tests had a slow turnaround, there was a lot of pressure to give way, but Mayhew was unmovable on the question.

At the other end of the equation at the nursing homes, the state made it clear, according to Mayhew, “if you are unable to adhere to these infection-control standards, if you are unable to safely isolate and dedicate staff to an isolation wing or unit, you need to transfer that individual to a hospital.”

As the health officials put it, succinctly, “We wanted people out, not in.”

 

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