Is Latter-day Saint Theology Responsible for Lgbt+ Suicides?

[bearhoof]

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/is-latter-day-saint-theology-responsible-for-lgbt-suicides/

 

This article suggests, contrary to popular belief, that it might not.

Edited May 11, 2020 by bearhoof
Clarity

[Hamba Tuhan]

A quote that supports an important point a number of us on this forum have previously raised:

Quote

... those pushing a narrative of mass suicidality among LGBT+ youth are themselves risking suicide contagion in order to win rhetorical points (this point, meant for the population in general, has actually been made by Rick Savin-Williams, the father of gay youth health research). Belief in LGBT+ Mormon suicide pandemic in the absence of good social science evidence may actually contribute to the troubling phenomenon of heightened suicidality among the LGBT+ population by normalizing suicide rather than resiliency, hope, and life.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

From the article:

“Ideologues too often swoop in where careful scholars fear to tread, and, in contrast to researchers that are sure to qualify or hedge their conclusions until we have the clear confirmation, others take the barest threads of circumstantial evidence to push a grand narrative.”

A good reason why everyone, on either side of the argument, needs to take the allegations of causation with the proverbial grain of salt. 

[Calm]

The two paragraphs following the above are worthy of quoting too:

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Is the Church and its practices and theology responsible, or is it the belief in the narrative itself? If you keep pushing the idea that all gay Latter-day Saints are depressed and suicidal, then those who are most vulnerable to that narrative may start to believe you. If you are contributing to the narrative that the only orthodox Latter-day Saint LGBT+ is a dead one, then you may in fact be hurting Latter-day Saint LGBT+ youth. 

The parents who will not speak to their child because the child is gay are just as sad and hurtful as the gay child who will not speak to her parents because they believe that exaltation involves the eternal union of a male and female pair. Scorched earth theological-cultural warfare is not going to help matters. More than ever, we need a deep understanding of well-regarded social science and empirical research, coupled with a respectful, nuanced appreciation of where people stand, and mutual respect and willingness to help loved ones who may be on different sides of these complex questions.

 

[sunstoned]

This is the same publication that jumped to the defense of the church when the 100 Billion dollar investment fund was made public.  They seem to be very pro LDS.

Quote

 

 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This is the same publication that jumped to the defense of the church when the 100 Billion dollar investment fund was made public.  They seem to be very pro LDS.

 

As they make clear:

https://publicsquaremag.org/about/

I believe they have a range of stances among their editors, though I don't know any well (know parents more in some cases).

Edited May 11, 2020 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A quote that supports an important point a number of us on this forum have previously raised:

Yes, there is a tendency for suicides to trend among youth.

[Robert F. Smith]

"Is Latter-day Saint Theology Responsible for Lgbt+ Suicides?"

That is how  @bearhoof put it.  However, how many Latter-day Saints actually know anything about LDS theology?  In my experience, most of them know very little.  So, the question should really be, Is ignorance of LDS theology leading to unnecessary LGBT+ suicides?  We have discussed LDS theology many times on this board, and I have seldom seen anything like an adequate understanding of LDS theology.  Perhaps we should be addressing Mormon culture, which may be far more relevant to suicidal tendencies.  Does Mormon culture cause or prevent suicide?  If so, how?

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

Threads about suicide make me want to commit suicide.

[smac97]

It may be apropos to re-post a 2016 Opinion Piece published by the Salt Lake Tribune which touches on this subject, and which was responsive to the horrible falsehoods about suicide causality peddled by Mama Dragons member Wendy Montgomery (from this thread) :

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Op-ed: Misuse of Utah suicide data makes it harder to address
By Mikle South
First Published Feb 06 2016 03:00PM    •    Last Updated Feb 07 2016 07:44 pm

Reported suicides among LGBTQ youth in Utah have received increased attention over the past few weeks. Because every suicide is a heartbreaking tragedy, increased understanding regarding contributing factors is needed in order to prevent future deaths. Unfortunately, some recent commentaries have misconstrued available facts.

Some may not realize that Utah belongs to the so-called "suicide belt" along the Intermountain Corridor. Suicide rates throughout this region are considerably higher than anywhere else in the country save Alaska, where rates are more than double the national average. Within this geographical context, Utah is not unique with regards to suicide.

Thus far, identifying the cause of this regional phenomenon remains elusive. Other regions with high rates of religiosity and availability of guns do not show similar patterns of suicide. Some research has suggested that lowered oxygen availability at higher altitudes affects brain chemistry in ways that increase vulnerability for depression and suicide, but this is not likely the only factor, and this and other possible causes are still being explored.

Surveys have shown that LGBTQ adolescents nationwide have a heightened suicide risk. Recent anonymous reports suggest that LGBTQ youth in predominantly LDS cultures have an increased risk beyond that. These reports contradict data from the Utah Department of Health, calling into question their validity, but the reality of the suffering of these youth still needs to be addressed.

The "silent stories" series published by an unofficial, off-campus group of students at Brigham Young University provides detailed information about individual cases of discrimination, depression, and suicidality experienced throughout their lives. While shame and guilt are associated with talking about these topics, such willingness to share these stories publicly can help make the topic a more urgent concern in the community.

An important question is how to use data collected from individual case reports to develop to a broader understanding of and solution to the problem. Experts recommend adding a place for information regarding sexuality concerns to suicide reports in the National Violent Death Reporting System administered by the Centers for Disease Control. I encourage Utah to embrace such recommendations.

...

Suicide is a major health concern for all youth in Utah, and may be a particular concern for LGBTQ youth. Recent misuse of suicide data in Utah for political purposes makes discussions about this topic more difficult. Such conversations should rely on verified information and address the hard questions about emotional and cultural experiences related to depression and suicide.

IIRC, Wendy Montgomery has yet to retract or apologize for the falsehoods she spread about us, which were subsequently re-published dozens of times.

Very much to its credit, the Trib addressed Montgomery's "statistics" here:

Quote

From the policy's onset through the end of 2015, Montgomery, a leader of the Mama Dragons support group for the families of gay Latter-day Saints, says she had counted 26 suicides of young LGBT Mormons in Utah — 23 males, one female and two transgender individuals — between ages 14 and 20.

She tallied another six in other states — though none of the reported deaths could be specifically tied to the policy.

Montgomery's statistics were shared at a recent meeting in Los Angeles of Affirmation, a support group for gay Mormons.

"The number of suicides reported to Wendy Montgomery is shocking," says John Gustav-Wrathall, Affirmation's newly installed president. "I've never seen anything like it in the history of my involvement with the organization."

Trouble is, the number far exceeds the suicide figures collected by the Utah Department of Health.

Preliminary figures for November and December show 10 suicides in the Beehive State for people ages 14 to 20, with two more cases "undetermined."

"We monitor the numbers [of youth suicides] very closely. We review them every month," says Teresa Brechlin, who works in the department's violence- and injury-prevention program. "If we had seen such a huge spike, we would have been investigating it."

Had there been any mention of the LDS Church's policy on gays, her department "would have noted that," Brechlin adds. "We have not seen that at all."

Data deficit • The number of Utah's youth suicides likely is higher than the Health Department notes, says former Utah Pride Center Executive Director Marian Edmonds-Allen, "but no one has good data."

When violent deaths occur, investigators could do a quick survey of witnesses or family members to find out about the deceased's sexual orientation, mental health or religious community.

"Is a traffic death or overdose an accident or suicide?" Edmonds-Allen asks. "There's such shame and stigma around suicide and depression in our community."

Words matter • Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen, an LDS therapist in Provo, knows of no LGBT suicides that have happened as a result of the church's policy, but she has seen its effect on many gay Mormons, especially those striving to remain in the faith.

Hansen has observed "increased suicidal thoughts, depression and anxiety."

"In my experience with specific cases, I have noticed that the more an LGBTQ person was interested in remaining close to the church or connected with it," she says, "the greater has been the negative emotional process resulting from the policy change."

Hansen says she has seen several cases in which active Mormon clients "felt they had hit a wall they could not negotiate and gave up trying to participate altogether ... [and others] who are struggling with greater depression and less hope."

Gay Latter-days Saints who had "already removed themselves from the church, either formally or informally, prior to the policy announcement," she says, seemed to experience "less mental distress, generally, as a result of the policy."

Multiple catalysts • Linking any suicide to a particular cause is difficult.

"Suicide is a tragic and incredibly complicated phenomenon," says Brad Kramer, who just finished teaching a unit on suicide in his Utah Valley University ethics class. "It is clear that suicide incidence can be strongly influenced by how we talk about, describe and report on suicides."

Still, blaming LGBTQ suicides on any single cause, "including widely influential anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and policies," he says, "is probably not helpful."

Such simplistic thinking not only trivializes "the complexity of suicide and feels like weaponizing tragedies in a culture war," Kramer says, "but it's possible that publicly portraying people who die by suicide as martyrs in a righteous fight and escalating that conflict in the process will contribute to, rather than curtail, Mormon LGBTQ suicides."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 11, 2020 by smac97

[JamesBYoung]

If  the average LDS know very little about LDS theology, then it follows that LDS LGBTQ+ know less.

Culture makes a person, so a culture can unmake a person.

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

If  the average LDS know very little about LDS theology, then it follows that LDS LGBTQ+ know less.

I'm curious about this.  

Here's a thought experiment: If I were to gather 100 active and observant Latter-day Saints into a room, and pass out to each of them copies of the Gospel Principles manual, and if I were to ask them to spend the next week reading it and come back for a discussion about the contents of that book, about which portions of the manual do you think most of those 100 would "know very little"?

38 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Culture makes a person, so a culture can unmake a person.

I quite agree that culture is influential.  Hugely influential, in fact.  More influential than it should be.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JamesBYoung]

smac97, if people read the manual and thought about it, they would know more than they did before.

And it might lead some to even more inquiry.

[bearhoof]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"Is Latter-day Saint Theology Responsible for Lgbt+ Suicides?"

That is how  @bearhoof put it.  However, how many Latter-day Saints actually know anything about LDS theology.  In my experience, most of them know very little.  So, the question should really be, Is ignorance of LDS theology leading to unnecessary LGBT+ suicides?  We have discussed LDS theology many times on this board, and I have seldom seen anything like an adequate understanding of LDS theology.  Perhaps we should be addressing Mormon culture, which may be far more relevant to suicidal tendencies.  Does Mormon culture cause or prevent suicide?  If so, how?

 

Those are not my words, just a copy/paste from the article headline.

[Tacenda]

If the gay person is a total orthodox LDS it may cause it and even a non gay that finds out things about the LDS church to make them disbelieve even cause suicidal thoughts, I know many including myself. So yes, to the OP's question, it can!

[california boy]

Not seeing anything newsworthy about the article.  It is just an opinion piece. Anyone could find numerous other opinion pieces that argue the opposite side of this issue.  If one wants to actually see if there is a relationship, then studies must be done.  This isn't a war of opinions that will solve the issue, it is science.  

I don't really think arguing about Church theology and suicide rates among LGBT youth is that productive myself.  The Church is not going to change its doctrine. Blaming the Church for doctrine that it believes comes from God is not going to change the suicide rate.  Mostly articles like this make members feel better about themselves and Church doctrine because they can point to opinions like these that free the Church from any responsibility.  

This is an article that uses actual studies to address this issue.  I found it way more informative because it sites actual studies that have been done on the issue of LGBT suicide.  There is a lot in the article, and the studies are linked in the footnotes.

 

From the article:

Quote

It is essential to acknowledge that suicidality is multifaceted, and being gay, lesbian, or transgender is not necessarily in all cases risk fac- tors for suicide attempts. In fact, as we will discuss later in this article, LGBTQ people who have supportive families and communities are not at increased risk of poor mental health outcomes. Risk factors for suicide among LGBTQ teens are actually similar to risk factors for suicide among all teens and include hopelessness, major depression symptoms, impulsivity, past suicide attempts, conduct disorder (i.e. destructive, aggressive, deceitful behaviors, and violation of rules), victimization, perceived family support (support from peers does not have the same impact), and the recent suicide or attempted suicide of a family member or close friend. Some of these risk factors, such as family rejection or victimization, might disproportionately impact LGBTQ teens, which would explain their overall higher rate of suicide attempts.3

 

What is known is that 

Quote

LGBTQ teens are twice as likely to attempt suicide as straight adolescents, according to the Centers for Disease Control

 

 

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Family rejection leads to an eight-fold risk of suicide attempts among LGBTQ teens. The Family Acceptance Project (FAP) has done some excellent research showing that there is an exponential risk of suicide for LGBTQ teens who come from families that show “rejecting behaviors” such as not addressing issues of bullying and exclusion or endorsing attitudes that exclude members of the LGBTQ community.

 

Quote

Parents’ rejecting behaviors are often reinforced by local Church leaders and Mormon culture. It is important to note that the risk of suicide remains higher for rejected youth well into adulthood. They also have exponentially higher rates of drug/alcohol use, depression, and HIV infection than youth raised in homes that do not show these reject- ing behaviors. The FAP research is in line with other empirical studies that show that many of these risk factors for suicide attempts can be decreased by “family-based interventions that increase support [which] reduce hopelessness and depression symptoms.”5

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Mark Hatzenbuehler of Columbia University polled 30,000 Oregon teens and found that those living in supportive communities were 25 percent less likely to attempt suicide compared to teens in more hostile communities

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Mental health outcomes and mortality rates for LGBTQ are the same as non-LGBTQ people in communities that are friendly to LGBTQ issues. In a 2013 study, Hatzenbuehler, et al. found that in communities that are highly prejudiced against sexual minorities, the life expectancy of sexual minorities is twelve years shorter when compared to low-prejudice communities.

Quote

Meanwhile, there is actual evidence that homosexuals are not at any increased risk of mental illness when they are in a less homophobic community. A study published in Psychosomatic Medicine by researchers at the University of Montreal (lead author Robert-Paul Juster) shows that “as a group, gay and bisexual men who are out of the closet were less likely to be depressed than heterosexual men and had less physi- ological problems than heterosexual men.”

There are over 15 scientific studies on this issue sited in this article.  If you want to know the actual science on LGBT suicide, I think this article is a good place to start.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This is the same publication that jumped to the defense of the church when the 100 Billion dollar investment fund was made public.  They seem to be very pro LDS.

 

You say that as though it’s a bad thing. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"Is Latter-day Saint Theology Responsible for Lgbt+ Suicides?"

That is how  @bearhoof put it.  However, how many Latter-day Saints actually know anything about LDS theology.  In my experience, most of them know very little.  So, the question should really be, Is ignorance of LDS theology leading to unnecessary LGBT+ suicides?  We have discussed LDS theology many times on this board, and I have seldom seen anything like an adequate understanding of LDS theology.  Perhaps we should be addressing Mormon culture, which may be far more relevant to suicidal tendencies.  Does Mormon culture cause or prevent suicide?  If so, how?

 

Hmm. 
 

If my fellow attendees in my Sunday School class and elders quorum meetings are any indication, the average active Latter-day Saint knows a good deal about the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ. 

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You say that as though it’s a bad thing. 

No, but a biased one, yes.

[Islander]

16 hours ago, bearhoof said:

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/is-latter-day-saint-theology-responsible-for-lgbt-suicides/

 

This article suggests, contrary to popular belief, that it might not.

There is substantial research on the subject of suicide to conclude that having an abnormal sexual desire or inclination that is in contradiction with one's family (or own) religious belief is NOT the ,primary reason why some commit suicide. After all, there are thousands of people that commit suicide for reasons that can not be traced to religious existential tension.  There are other factors that influence such decisions, most of then, philosophically intrinsic to the person i.e. how/what the person thinks or process his/her relationships with those around him/her in view of the existential tension. 

A man or a woman, for example, may struggle for a lifetime with sexual drives and desires that are in juxtaposition with his/her religious beliefs and traditions. How the person chooses to handle such makes all the difference. And such choice is always dependent on the quality of the relationships he/she has established, what thoughts and beliefs/expectations the person has built around his/her life and forward/future/eternal outlook in life. 

The media age is characterized by opinion over noteworthy reporting, ideology over science and politics above facts. To make matters worse, the public (at large) has very poor critical thinking skills to discern these issues successfully and little interest in actually researching the facts. The article is a good start.

[california boy]

10 minutes ago, Islander said:

There is substantial research on the subject of suicide to conclude that having an abnormal sexual desire or inclination that is in contradiction with one's family (or own) religious belief is NOT the ,primary reason why some commit suicide. After all, there are thousands of people that commit suicide for reasons that can not be traced to religious existential tension.  There are other factors that influence such decisions, most of then, philosophically intrinsic to the person i.e. how/what the person thinks or process his/her relationships with those around him/her in view of the existential tension. 

A man or a woman, for example, may struggle for a lifetime with sexual drives and desires that are in juxtaposition with his/her religious beliefs and traditions. How the person chooses to handle such makes all the difference. And such choice is always dependent on the quality of the relationships he/she has established, what thoughts and beliefs/expectations the person has built around his/her life and forward/future/eternal outlook in life. 

The media age is characterized by opinion over noteworthy reporting, ideology over science and politics above facts. To make matters worse, the public (at large) has very poor critical thinking skills to discern these issues successfully and little interest in actually researching the facts. The article is a good start.

It is interesting that you praise an article that is totally an opinion piece over the one that I posted which is heavily noted with studies and scientific research.  Aren't you perpetuating media that is characterized by opinion over science?

You also say

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There is substantial research on the subject of suicide to conclude that having an abnormal sexual desire or inclination that is in contradiction with one's family (or own) religious belief is NOT the ,primary reason why some commit suicide

Yet you provide no research at all to support this opinion.  It would be hard to not believe that conflict between one's family religious beliefs were not a major cause of suicide in cases like this.

Memorial held for gay Mormon who committed suicide in Los Altos

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by california boy

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, Islander said:

There is substantial research on the subject of suicide to conclude that having an abnormal sexual desire or inclination that is in contradiction with one's family (or own) religious belief is NOT the ,primary reason why some commit suicide. After all, there are thousands of people that commit suicide for reasons that can not be traced to religious existential tension.  There are other factors that influence such decisions, most of then, philosophically intrinsic to the person i.e. how/what the person thinks or process his/her relationships with those around him/her in view of the existential tension. 

A man or a woman, for example, may struggle for a lifetime with sexual drives and desires that are in juxtaposition with his/her religious beliefs and traditions. How the person chooses to handle such makes all the difference. And such choice is always dependent on the quality of the relationships he/she has established, what thoughts and beliefs/expectations the person has built around his/her life and forward/future/eternal outlook in life. 

The media age is characterized by opinion over noteworthy reporting, ideology over science and politics above facts. To make matters worse, the public (at large) has very poor critical thinking skills to discern these issues successfully and little interest in actually researching the facts. The article is a good start.

This premise belongs in another realm. The gay person is gay from birth, IMO. They didn't choose to desire the same sex, it just is.

I say this often, but will say it again...imagine someone telling you that you must love the same sex, assuming you are heterosexual. How would that feel? Imagine that you try and try to love the same sex but you can't, you're attracted to only those of the opposite sex. Okay, now see the problem? Even heterosexuals are deviants, or people that have multiple affairs etc. So this can happen in both heterosexuals and gays.

So a gay person that is acting out irresponsibly may feel suicidal for those reasons alone, such as a heterosexual feel suicidal over doing those things. The problem being is when a gay person is told they won't live with their families, simply for living out their decent desires just as the heterosexual does. But the heterosexual is given the green light to pursue their God given inclination in the LDS religion, but not the gay person? They are told they are choosing evil basically.

I will say it again, imagine you're told to love the same sex and that is what God wants, how would that feel? And say you totally believe in the church too, now how do you feel? If it were me I'd have to leave the church to feel normal, or if I stayed, it'd drive me to I don't know where, but not a good place. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hmm. 
 

If my fellow attendees in my Sunday School class and elders quorum meetings are any indication, the average active Latter-day Saint knows a good deal about the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Doctrine perhaps.  But not theology.  Even well-informed members of this board seldom show any understanding of LDS theology.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, bearhoof said:

Those are not my words, just a copy/paste from the article headline.

Yet that is the issue put forward, whether you are merely repeating it or not.  And the questions I asked remain relevant.

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This premise belongs in another realm. The gay person is gay from birth, IMO. They didn't choose to desire the same sex, it just is.

I say this often, but will say it again...imagine someone telling you that you must love the same sex, assuming you are heterosexual. How would that feel? Imagine that you try and try to love the same sex but you can't, you're attracted to only those of the opposite sex. Okay, now see the problem? Even heterosexuals are deviants, or people that have multiple affairs etc. So this can happen in both heterosexuals and gays.

So a gay person that is acting out irresponsibly may feel suicidal for those reasons alone, such as a heterosexual feel suicidal over doing those things. The problem being is when a gay person is told they won't live with their families, simply for living out their decent desires just as the heterosexual does. But the heterosexual is given the green light to pursue their God given inclination in the LDS religion, but not the gay person? They are told they are choosing evil basically.

I will say it again, imagine you're told to love the same sex and that is what God wants, how would that feel? And say you totally believe in the church too, now how do you feel? If it were me I'd have to leave the church to feel normal, or if I stayed, it'd drive me to I don't know where, but not a good place. 

Sexual behavior is always learned behavior, in the first place. Second, Human beings can and do have sexual interests, inclinations, drives and desires that may be outside of norm and social expectations. As sanctioned beings, we are called to make value judgement on those desires all the time. We don't have to give way to such desires and most people don't. But to allege that sexual orientation drives people to suicide simply because of religious tension is just not accurate. 

Most working theories about suicide revolve around Alloy and Abramson’s hopelessness theory of suicide (HT) and Joiner’s interpersonal psychological theory of suicide (IPTS). Most of the studies conducted, worldwide, point to suicide as a multifaceted event rooted in psychological markers that apply to a myriad of circumstances. Like I mention in a prior post, out of the thousands of people that commit suicide every years worldwide, a very small fraction has anything to do sexual orientation. To link suicide to religious tension is just an ideological statement and not a statement of fact.