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The Miracles Had Temporary Effects


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21 minutes ago, theplains said:

1 of the 10 was healed.  But did he fall away and receive his leprosy again and did Mary Magdalene
fall away and receive demon-possession again?

All ten were healed.  Only one returned to give thanks.

Are you ignoring what I said?  As well as all the other posts in this thread?  Please reread my post for what the falling away may have meant.  Perhaps the addition of John 6 will help,

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, theplains said:

Did the demons ever re-enter Mary Magdalene after Jesus cast them out?

Only Luke 8 and the long ending of Mark (16:9) mention the Madeline as having been a victim of demonic possession, but it is not certain that this tradition is any more true than the later false claim that she was a prostitute. In any case, we know of no reason to suspect that she was reinfected.  As you are no doubt aware, scholars call into serious question the authenticity of the long ending of Mark.

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  • 2 months later...

I hope the OP doesn't mind my using this thread, I think it is relevant enough to belong on this thread. My son who is on his way to becoming the ultimate anti-Mormon told me about this story he'd heard RadioFreeMormon share on a podcast that I wasn't aware of. I was a little perplexed that Elder Gay would share or do what he did in the story. It seemed like if I didn't know better he was going to say, "gotcha" at the end of telling the story. Do any of you remember this talk, and did this seem a little crazy? 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2020/05/12gay?lang=eng

I close with this personal experience and testimony from my life. Years ago, as a college sophomore, I was studying for final exams in an apartment by myself. It was a warm day, and as I was reviewing my papers, a gnat started buzzing in front of my face. The persistence of the gnat began to really annoy me. Finally, I had enough. I raised my hands and slapped them together and killed the gnat. I cannot explain to this day what happened next: I looked down at the dead gnat in the palm of my hand and felt great compassion. I said to myself, “That gnat did not need to die. It is only dead because of my frustration and impatience.” I then knelt and prayed to God to forgive me and let that gnat live again. As I finished that prayer, the gnat flew from my hand.

I have asked myself for years, why did God do this for me? Many answers have come, but none more important than this: He wanted me to understand at my very core that He has all power to lift me or anyone else, even the least. He wanted me to know He has complete compassion for our weaknesses and that He numbers the very hairs on our heads. Now, if He would restore a gnat, He will never forsake you—no matter where you stand.

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On 4/29/2020 at 2:57 PM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf

48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? 
(This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the 
greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed 
by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the 
Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary.  The blessing of spiritual
healing was—and is—everlasting.)

What physical healings by the Savior were temporary?  Did the healed blind, lame, and
demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again?  I'm
excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die
due to the natural course of life.

Tony

This kind of reminds me of the movie The Robe and what the cripple lady said that was "healed" by Jesus but still couldn't walk.
"He could have healed my body, and it would
have been natural for me to laugh and sing.
And then i came to understand that
he had done something even better for me.
He'd chosen me for his work.
He'd left me as i am so that all others like me
might know that misfortune needn't deprive
them of happiness within his kingdom."

He healed her spiritually, something far more important and long lasting than physical healing.

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21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hope the OP doesn't mind my using this thread, I think it is relevant enough to belong on this thread. My son who is on his way to becoming the ultimate anti-Mormon told me about this story he'd heard RadioFreeMormon share on a podcast that I wasn't aware of. I was a little perplexed that Elder Gay would share or do what he did in the story. It seemed like if I didn't know better he was going to say, "gotcha" at the end of telling the story. Do any of you remember this talk, and did this seem a little crazy? 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2020/05/12gay?lang=eng

I close with this personal experience and testimony from my life. Years ago, as a college sophomore, I was studying for final exams in an apartment by myself. It was a warm day, and as I was reviewing my papers, a gnat started buzzing in front of my face. The persistence of the gnat began to really annoy me. Finally, I had enough. I raised my hands and slapped them together and killed the gnat. I cannot explain to this day what happened next: I looked down at the dead gnat in the palm of my hand and felt great compassion. I said to myself, “That gnat did not need to die. It is only dead because of my frustration and impatience.” I then knelt and prayed to God to forgive me and let that gnat live again. As I finished that prayer, the gnat flew from my hand.

I have asked myself for years, why did God do this for me? Many answers have come, but none more important than this: He wanted me to understand at my very core that He has all power to lift me or anyone else, even the least. He wanted me to know He has complete compassion for our weaknesses and that He numbers the very hairs on our heads. Now, if He would restore a gnat, He will never forsake you—no matter where you stand.

Quoting myself, for need to get a response from anyone on the board about this talk. 

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Quoting myself, for need to get a response from anyone on the board about this talk. 

It didn't seem particularly crazy to me. I thought it was a good talk. What individual persons may consider to be crazy has little bearing on the intentions of the great Thou, especially when His action is directed as a specific lesson for a specific recipient. 

After all, if not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice, why not a gnat? I see nothing wrong with Elder Gay feeling bad about killing a gnat, and God using it to communicate with him. 

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If it is the issue of the gnat being resurrected, perhaps for the purpose of teaching Elder Gay, the gnat was only stunned but was so long enough to give the impression of death for God’s opportunity to teach. 
 

It is impossible to know for sure, just as it is impossible to know if God is really inspiring people to find car keys and what seem trivial to others while not acting on healing those sick or preventing significant harm at times even when asked for healing and protection.
 

Of course we won’t know until death how often God does intercede on our behalf, either in major or minor ways.  We probably should keep a healthy level of skepticism to avoid thinking we are invulnerable to error while also being grateful that the world provides for us in many good ways whether directly or indirectly by God’s hands (did the spirit actually help me find my keys or did God just give me a decent memory that can direct me to find them?)

Edited by Calm
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7 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

It didn't seem particularly crazy to me. I thought it was a good talk. What individual persons may consider to be crazy has little bearing on the intentions of the great Thou, especially when His action is directed as a specific lesson for a specific recipient. 

After all, if not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice, why not a gnat? I see nothing wrong with Elder Gay feeling bad about killing a gnat, and God using it to communicate with him. 

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

If it is the issue of the gnat being resurrected, perhaps for the purpose of teaching Elder Gay, the gnat was only stunned but was so long enough to give the impression of death for God’s opportunity to teach. 
 

It is impossible to know for sure, just as it is impossible to know if God is really inspiring people to find car keys and what seem trivial to others while not acting on healing those sick or preventing significant harm at times even when asked for healing and protection.
 

Of course we won’t know until death how often God does intercede on our behalf, either in major or minor ways.  We probably should keep a healthy level of skepticism to avoid thinking we are invulnerable to error while also being grateful that the world provides for us in many good ways whether directly or indirectly by God’s hands (did the spirit actually help me find my keys or did God just give me a decent memory that can direct me to find them?)

Thanks to the both of you for weighing in. I guess I don't understand how a gnat would be something to feel bad killing, don't we kill flies all the time? Or I wonder if he's vegetarian as well, because if not, then I'm definitely stumped and wonder if he should have even shared this story, because IMO, it took away from the talk. I believe the gnat was stunned as well, Calm. 

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A gnat is annoying, but harmless.  I read it as him having an unusual level of compassion at that moment.  That even the smallest of creatures had value in God's eyes and therefore should have value in ours.  And if God values a gnat enough to bring it back to life or protect it from being smashed, how much more will God value mankind, his children?

Edited by Calm
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48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Thanks to the both of you for weighing in. I guess I don't understand how a gnat would be something to feel bad killing, don't we kill flies all the time? Or I wonder if he's vegetarian as well, because if not, then I'm definitely stumped and wonder if he should have even shared this story, because IMO, it took away from the talk. I believe the gnat was stunned as well, Calm. 

I had an experience where some bats flew into my house one warm summer night, and believe me that's a pretty unpleasant experience. I remember having some of those feelings of compassion. All they were doing was exploring in search of food. Well one got out okay but the other one was still lost and stuck in the house. I actually said a prayer asking that it could make it out safely. Well crazy thing, but the bat actually flew and landed right next to my chair and just sat there. We were able to lift a box under it and off he went. So to me his story of the gnat isn't implausible.

Of course I can foresee someone looking at those stories and asking why God doesn't answer bigger, more important prayers, and that I don't have an answer for.

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56 minutes ago, Calm said:

A gnat is annoying, but harmless.  I read it as him having an unusual level of compassion at that moment.  That even the smallest of creatures had value in God's eyes and therefore should have value in ours.  And if God values a gnat enough to bring it back to life or protect it from being smashed, how much more will God value mankind, his children?

I guess I better evaluate why I think the smallest species should be killed but older not. Thanks!

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19 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I had an experience where some bats flew into my house one warm summer night, and believe me that's a pretty unpleasant experience. I remember having some of those feelings of compassion. All they were doing was exploring in search of food. Well one got out okay but the other one was still lost and stuck in the house. I actually said a prayer asking that it could make it out safely. Well crazy thing, but the bat actually flew and landed right next to my chair and just sat there. We were able to lift a box under it and off he went. So to me his story of the gnat isn't implausible.

Of course I can foresee someone looking at those stories and asking why God doesn't answer bigger, more important prayers, and that I don't have an answer for.

Sweet story about the bat...although scary! 

Yesterday I met my sister and her husband for dinner, which is a rare occasion, anyway they told my husband and I how their day had been. I guess they have raccoons all over their neighborhood and they set up a trap etc. And then called animal control when one came into the cage and animal control said they no longer came and got them. So my brother-in-law got his gun and shot it, but it didn't die and my sister was like shoot it again so it won't suffer and he did. Apparently it was a gruesome thing to go through with blood everywhere. Now when I compare saving a gnat and this raccoon, I guess it's a toss up. The gnat wouldn't harm a flea, but the raccoon might, so maybe it's a good reason not to kill a gnat? But then the raccoon might have had babies nearby. :( So I'll rethink this whole thing. Thanks for your input!

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On 7/13/2020 at 12:52 PM, Tacenda said:

 Do any of you remember this talk, and did this seem a little crazy? 

I loved the story.  The concept of ahimsa is well demonstrated and fits nicely, I think, within our doctrines.  

 

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