Found My Own Seer Stone.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, snowflake said:

The seer stones are one of the best relics and tangible evidences for the whole Joseph Smith story.....I find them fascinating and when I first started researching Joseph Smith and the origins of the LDS church I had one of those......wait.....is this for real?....... moments. They are magical, mystical, full of awe, powerful, sacred and reminded me of Indiana Jones!

Or the Levitical High Priest with the shining stones in his breastplate.

[Ahab]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:03 PM, JAHS said:

I never get any bars on it though.  😉

Three serious questions:
1. What was it about the original stone that Joseph Smith found that made him think it was a seer stone?
2. Was there anything special about it or was it 100% revelation and the stone was only a tool? Would any stone work?
3. How many bars would President Nelson get on that original stone we have now?

Interesting.  Mine looks more like this:

 

 

1. What was it about the original stone that Joseph Smith found that made him think it was a seer stone?

I suppose he was able to see something with it.  Something that helped him to see something as God sees it.  Makes sense, doesn't it?  A stone that helps someone to see something as God sees it = a seer stone.

2. Was there anything special about it or was it 100% revelation and the stone was only a tool? Would any stone work?

I don't understand what you mean by these questions.  The thing about the stone was that it helped Joseph to see something.  I've heard stories that his stone was "light" in appearance, rather than a "dark" stone, but the main thing about it was that it helped Joseph to see something as God sees it

3. How many bars would President Nelson get on that original stone we have now?

I would suppose it depends on where he is or what he is trying to see with it.  I don't think God is ready to reveal everything yet so some things are not able to be seen right now even if one has the best seer stone on the market.

 

[JAHS]

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Interesting.  Mine looks more like this:

 

 

1. What was it about the original stone that Joseph Smith found that made him think it was a seer stone?

I suppose he was able to see something with it.  Something that helped him to see something as God sees it.  Makes sense, doesn't it?  A stone that helps someone to see something as God sees it = a seer stone.

2. Was there anything special about it or was it 100% revelation and the stone was only a tool? Would any stone work?

I don't understand what you mean by these questions.  The thing about the stone was that it helped Joseph to see something.  I've heard stories that his stone was "light" in appearance, rather than a "dark" stone, but the main thing about it was that it helped Joseph to see something as God sees it

3. How many bars would President Nelson get on that original stone we have now?

I would suppose it depends on where he is or what he is trying to see with it.  I don't think God is ready to reveal everything yet so some things are not able to be seen right now even if one has the best seer stone on the market.

 

Well you definitely get a better signal with that one.
 

[Tacenda]

Here's presumably how Joseph started using a stone. https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_How_did_Joseph_Smith_use_his_seer_stones_as_a_youth%3F

[longview]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

On 4/29/2020 at 8:07 AM, snowflake said:

The seer stones are one of the best relics and tangible evidences for the whole Joseph Smith story.....I find them fascinating and when I first started researching Joseph Smith and the origins of the LDS church I had one of those......wait.....is this for real?....... moments. They are magical, mystical, full of awe, powerful, sacred and reminded me of Indiana Jones!

Or the Levitical High Priest with the shining stones in his breastplate.

The seer stones would have been a mere curiosity.  Not much more exciting than a divining rod (or Y shaped twig).  Not sufficient for establishing a new church.  The Book of Mormon is a major "relic" of the Restoration.  It is a powerful source of controversy, the content of which cannot be explained away.

The stones on the breastplate did not merely shine but probably blinked out a series of letters for revealing words and sentences.  There were twelve stones, one for each of the tribes.  Each stone represented a Hebrew letter.  See Exodus 38 and 39.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, longview said:

The seer stones would have been a mere curiosity.  Not much more exciting than a divining rod (or Y shaped twig).  Not sufficient for establishing a new church.  The Book of Mormon is a major "relic" of the Restoration.  It is a powerful source of controversy, the content of which cannot be explained away.

The stones on the breastplate did not merely shine but probably blinked out a series of letters for revealing words and sentences.  There were twelve stones, one for each of the tribes.  Each stone represented a Hebrew letter.  See Exodus 38 and 39.

Interesting idea to imagine.  Shining stones from the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim, essentially eyeglasses, which were attached to the breastplate, used by the wearer to interpret the shining stones as God helped the wearer to see what God was communicating.

I wonder if the wearer touched or hit different stones on the breastplate to facilitate receiving messages from God.  Imagine how that would have looked.  The wearer not just standing still while looking through the eyeglasses over his eyes and while wearing the breastplate, but actively moving and touching the different stones and probably looking at different places as the stones lit up or illuminated a message for him to read.  I would like to see that sometime.  I imagine the breastplate was shiny and the stones were colorful and it would be quite a sight to behold if the stones actually lit up in various sequences to communicate a message.  The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters with no vowels, so the glasses were probably used to fill in the details.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:56 PM, Tacenda said:

Surely Joseph was on to him.

Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't but don't call him Shirley.

Edit: Awwwww......did not read to the end. Beaten.  

Edited April 30, 2020 by The Nehor

[JAHS]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

On 4/29/2020 at 9:12 AM, The Nehor said:

The idea that the stone was transformed into something else is probably incorrect. Any miracle in the translation probably did not involve the stone's properties changing.

I agree, but there may be physical properties that we are not aware of that God could make use of to have the stone release light. 

Seer stones may just start out to be regular stones that are used as seer stones,  or even the stones the Brother of Jared used to light the ships after God touched them.
The Liahona, on the other hand,  was specifically made by God Himself to direct the Nephites. Is this evidence that other certain objects (like stones) may not just be normal objects after all, but may have inherent supernatural powers whose source is from God?

[Tacenda]

Okay don't laugh but why did the use of seerstones end with Joseph Smith? Typical question I guess.

[Tacenda]

Okay don't laugh but why did the use of seerstones end with Joseph Smith? Typical question I guess.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay don't laugh but why did the use of seerstones end with Joseph Smith?

What makes you think that? One of my responses to you from only 10 months ago:

Quote

Regarding Joseph's seer stones, I've shared on this forum before Kenneth Godfrey's experience in the First Presidency vault with Pres Harold B. Lee. When he asked Pres Lee what was in a paper shopping bag, Pres Lee said it was a seer stone; this was so that he could carry it to and from home easier. Bro Godfrey said he didn't know which possibility amused him more: 1) that Pres Lee transported a seer stone in a shopping bag or 2) that Pres Lee was willing to have him on in that way and without any indication of making a joke.

 

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

What makes you think that? One of my responses to you from only 10 months ago:

 

I don't remember this story, interesting!

[Bernard Gui]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:07 PM, Ahab said:

Interesting idea to imagine.  Shining stones from the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim, essentially eyeglasses, which were attached to the breastplate, used by the wearer to interpret the shining stones as God helped the wearer to see what God was communicating.

I wonder if the wearer touched or hit different stones on the breastplate to facilitate receiving messages from God.  Imagine how that would have looked.  The wearer not just standing still while looking through the eyeglasses over his eyes and while wearing the breastplate, but actively moving and touching the different stones and probably looking at different places as the stones lit up or illuminated a message for him to read.  I would like to see that sometime.  I imagine the breastplate was shiny and the stones were colorful and it would be quite a sight to behold if the stones actually lit up in various sequences to communicate a message.  The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters with no vowels, so the glasses were probably used to fill in the details.

Two interesting articles if you want some more information:

https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/434/JBQ_434_bakonurim.pdf

http://templeinstitute.org/priestly-garments-3/

[Tacenda]

I listened to RadioFreemormon's latest podcast while going for a walk. He is a magician I guess, and said that Joseph Smith is using a stone to throw people off, and in actuality it's the top hat being white and translucent that is the trick. He seems to think that Joseph had someway put a paper in the hat to read, maybe a secret flap or something. And when they'd take a break from translating he'd change out the paper or something. Has FairMormon discussed this? Or has any apologist attempted to discredit something like that happening?

[OGHoosier]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I listened to RadioFreemormon's latest podcast while going for a walk. He is a magician I guess, and said that Joseph Smith is using a stone to throw people off, and in actuality it's the top hat being white and translucent that is the trick. He seems to think that Joseph had someway put a paper in the hat to read, maybe a secret flap or something. And when they'd take a break from translating he'd change out the paper or something. Has FairMormon discussed this? Or has any apologist attempted to discredit something like that happening?

Do we know the hat was white at all?

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Do we know the hat was white at all?

There are a few stories of him owning a white hat. Martin Harris told a story that Joseph could find lost objects with the second, white stone:

I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone." I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look to one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.[Joel Tiffany, Tiffany's Monthly (June 1859): 164;cited in Van Wagoner and Walker, 55.]

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, JAHS said:

There are a few stories of him owning a white hat. Martin Harris told a story that Joseph could find lost objects with the second, white stone:

I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone." I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look to one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.[Joel Tiffany, Tiffany's Monthly (June 1859): 164;cited in Van Wagoner and Walker, 55.]

Ahhh. The “old white hat” trick. This would seem to contradict the “translucent” description of the hat in Tacenda’s RFM report. In that one, he fooled everyone by seeing through the hat, but in the other, he fooled them by not seeing through the hat. Maybe there was a hole in the hat thorough which he could locate pins. The secret flap would also be a great place to hide a rabbit. On the other hand, if Martin’s story is true, then Joseph really must have had some sort of super powers. I wonder how he could find a pin on the floor but not Captain Kidds’ treasure in the ground. The mass of the metal must not have been a factor. Maybe he was yanking Martin’s chain...he saw where the pin fell and was just having a little fun. I wonder how accurate these kinds of tales are. How reliable are almost 40 year old memories recounted about Joseph in Tiffany’s Monthly? 

BTW, I own two white hats.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ahhh. The “old white hat” trick. This would seem to contradict the “translucent” description of the hat in Tacenda’s RFM report. In that one, he fooled everyone by seeing through the hat, but in the other, he fooled them by not seeing through the hat. Maybe there was a hole in the hat thorough which he could locate pins. The secret flap would also be a great place to hide a rabbit. On the other hand, if Martin’s story is true, then Joseph really must have had some sort of super powers. I wonder how he could find a pin on the floor but not Captain Kidds’ treasure in the ground. The mass of the metal must not have been a factor. Maybe he was yanking Martin’s chain...he saw where the pin fell and was just having a little fun. I wonder how accurate these kinds of tales are. How reliable are almost 40 year old memories recounted about Joseph in Tiffany’s Monthly? 

And so what are you really trying to say here?

[The Nehor]

On 4/30/2020 at 7:25 PM, Tacenda said:

Okay don't laugh but why did the use of seerstones end with Joseph Smith? Typical question I guess.

Same reason the Liahona stopped working. The time for its use had passed. Like the Liahona we keep it around as a memento of the past. Maybe some day some prophet will use one again. Who knows?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And so what are you really trying to say here?

I'm really trying to say, "What is the value of repeating such silly unverifiable hearsay?" How reliable is Joel Tiffany's Monthly? Is it used as an authoritative source for other scholarly endeavors? Care to explain how this is helpful?

Moreover, if Joseph did put a paper in the hat to read, it must have been a very tall hat that allowed a lot of light in, unless he had some sort of really super-duper up-close eyesight. If the letters were big enough to read so close, he would constantly be switching out papers. Someone would have noticed, I suspect. I really like the disclaimer ".....or something."

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm really trying to say, "What is the value of repeating such silly unverifiable hearsay?" How reliable is Joel Tiffany's Monthly? Is it used as an authoritative source for other scholarly endeavors? Care to explain how this is helpful?

Moreover, if Joseph did put a paper in the hat to read, it must have been a very tall hat that allowed a lot of light in, unless he had some sort of really super-duper up-close eyesight. If the letters were big enough to read so close, he would constantly be switching out papers. Someone would have noticed, I suspect. I really like the disclaimer ".....or something."

 

I understand your not wanting to believe Joseph did this. But what if he really didn't need any of it, and just wanted to use one. It didn't appear he needed it for the D&C or the BoA, or I could be wrong. 

[OGHoosier]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I understand your not wanting to believe Joseph did this. But what if he really didn't need any of it, and just wanted to use one. It didn't appear he needed it for the D&C or the BoA, or I could be wrong. 

Wilford Woodruff referred to the Book of Abraham translation work as being executed through the Urim and Thummim, which is cognate with seer stones:

Quote

The Lord is blessing Joseph with power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God; to translate through the Urim and Thummim ancient records and hieroglyphics old as Abraham or Adam which caused our hearts to burn within us while we behold their glorious truths opened unto us." -Wilford Woodruff, journal entry February 19, 1842

Orson Pratt referred to the BoA translation as follows in the Journal of Discourses:

Quote

 

"The Prophet translated the part of these writings which, as I have said is contained in the Pearl of Great Price, and known as the Book of Abraham. Thus you see one of the first gifts bestowed by the Lord for the benefit of His people, was that of revelation-the gift to translate, by the aid of the Urim and Thummim, the gift of bringing to light old and ancient records." - Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 20:65

I had gotten it into my head at some point that Warren Parrish had mentioned a seer stone being involved in the 1835 translation period of the BoA, for which he was a scribe and firsthand witness. I cannot, however, find the source at the moment, so take that with a grain of salt. I don't think there's any other firsthand corroboration of the presence of seer stones during the BoA translation. The Woodruff and Pratt references are both secondhand sources as well, so caveat lector. There's also the possibility that Urim and Thummim were referential to spiritual gifts and not material objects. Since both the seer stones and the Nephite interpreters were referred to by JS and his associates as Urim and Thummim, I think it might be appropriate to consider Urim and Thummim as more of a spiritual gift/designator than object title. 

Joseph Smith also used the Urim and Thummim to receive some earlier D&C revelations, such as Sections 3, 6, and 7, which were received during the Book of Mormon translation process. David Whitmer relates that after the translation of the Book of Mormon was completed, Joseph said that he had no further need of his brown seer stone and gave it to Oliver Cowdery. I think he retained the white one however, along with any others. 

Topic change...

Regarding the white hat theory, I find it intriguing but ultimately unlikely. Hats back then were typically made of stiffened felt or calico, on which a silk plush or other fabric was layered, with several layers of resin applied to make it all hold together. It was a relatively stiff and thick construction so I find it difficult to believe it would be translucent enough for reading purposes even if the outer layer was white. Furthermore, it's unlikely that Joseph could fit enough text on one sheet to permit hours of dictation, since turning pages in the hat would be impossible without attracting attention. We know from both Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris's swapped-stone account that Joseph and the scribes would sometimes, perhaps even often, spend their breaks together, thus minimizing the opportunity for Joseph to swap out pages. Furthermore, if you take that account seriously, you'll know that Martin swapped the stone from its place, likely the hat, and therefore did not find any paper there. 

The Witnesses pretty persistently refer to the purpose of the hat as providing darkness in which "the spiritual light would shine", in David Whitmer's words. Witness statements are pretty consistent that the purpose was to provide darkness, which would seem to preclude the possibility of the interior of the hat being lit. 

Ultimately, I think the logistics of that trick remove it from consideration. There is no evidence that Joseph had any documents with him to read from, least of all documents which could be easily manipulated inside the hat without drawing attention. Given the close proximity of the scribes and whatever onlookers might be present, it's unviable. Furthermore, I tend to question the idea that Joseph Smith had a manuscript he was reading from thanks to the simple question: how'd he afford the paper? He was hardly rich and was dependent upon Martin Harris for not only food but the paper for the beginning Book of Mormon translation. He wasn't even living in his own house for most of the period of the Book of Mormon translation, and with Mary Whitmer bustling about doing the laundry and the housework for them all I doubt he'd be able to keep much hidden. The hidden manuscript theory thus fails, in my view, on questions of sheer practicality. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand your not wanting to believe Joseph did this. But what if he really didn't need any of it, and just wanted to use one. It didn't appear he needed it for the D&C or the BoA, or I could be wrong. 

I don’t want to believe it? It’s preposterous on its face...a translucent white hat through which he could see tiny writings just inches from his face and constantly switching out hundreds of new sheets without anyone seeing them, but then not to be able to see through the hat to find a pin in some hay is not reliable information.

What do you think about the two articles I provided detailing how the Urim and Thummim functioned with the stones on the High Priest’s breastplate? I accept the scriptural accounts of the stones touched by God to provide light for the Jaredite boats, the use of the “Interpreters” by Book of Mormon seers, and other common objects used in miraculous ways. These instances and Joseph’s translation processes appear to be consistent with the descriptions in the articles. I am not surprised by the ways God often works with his children. Of course, it is a matter of faith.
 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[2BizE]

19 th century folk magic and occult/superstition. Many people were very superstitious and believed in magic and the occult.  It was no wonder they believed a man could place a rock in a hat and find buried treasure, even buried gold plates.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, 2BizE said:

19 th century folk magic and occult/superstition. Many people were very superstitious and believed in magic and the occult.  It was no wonder they believed a man could place a rock in a hat and find buried treasure, even buried gold plates.

Repeated personal experience has taught me that God is real and speaks to those who humbly seek Him -- and in ways that are externally verifiable, i.e, there really are plates in the hill. People who haven't experienced what I have will almost inevitably find me superstitious. There is nothing I can do to fix that.

Joseph himself acknowledged this reality: 'I don't blame anyone for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself'.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan