Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Jared Halverson - Lds Living Video


Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for sharing, these are great thoughts.  I appreciate your vulnerability, and admitting your struggles on this in your life.  That you were able to acknowledge how hard these principles are to really practice in regular every day life, is an important acknowledgement.  It shows that you're trying.  I have to admit that I fall short of these ideals frequently as well.  It really is hard to be intentional and to seek to understand with our family members, or coworkers or people on this message board.  I am guilty of this as much as anyone else.  

But I think that recognizing when we fall short is really a step in the right direction.  What I'm reminded by with your comment is this idea that I've heard expressed before and I think it has merit.  We can't make other people seek to understand, that is something we can only do ourselves, but the very act of doing, the very act of slowing things down, of truly listening to someone and reflecting their thoughts back to them to see if we understood correctly.  These kinds of individual and seemingly insignificant acts, can actually change the tone and tenor of the conversations we have.  And these changes have an effect.  However small it may seem, we have an effect on those around us.  I'd like to think that these small effects can change the world if they are magnified through the small efforts of many people over the course of history.  

You keep trying over there, and I'll keep trying over here.  Thanks again

Yes, this was what was in that chapter. When you truly listen it allows people you listen to, to have trust that you understand.  Trust that they won't trash you or their feelings. At that point you can share what is the heart of the matter and because both understand each other, both can build together rather than tear apart.

Edited by Rain
Link to comment
4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for sharing, these are great thoughts.  I appreciate your vulnerability, and admitting your struggles on this in your life.  That you were able to acknowledge how hard these principles are to really practice in regular every day life, is an important acknowledgement.  It shows that you're trying.  I have to admit that I fall short of these ideals frequently as well.  It really is hard to be intentional and to seek to understand with our family members, or coworkers or people on this message board.  I am guilty of this as much as anyone else.  

But I think that recognizing when we fall short is really a step in the right direction.  What I'm reminded by with your comment is this idea that I've heard expressed before and I think it has merit.  We can't make other people seek to understand, that is something we can only do ourselves, but the very act of doing, the very act of slowing things down, of truly listening to someone and reflecting their thoughts back to them to see if we understood correctly. 

I have to come back to this.

This is what really caught me.  I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer.  Then I realized as I was reading that I was what Covey calls "probing".

I had thought that asking questions like that would help me understand better.  After reading I found that wasn't the case. I was asking to answer better. It's VERY different, but I couldn't see that. I sincerely wanted to help you, but giving someone candy when they need water doesn't do much no matter how sincere I am.

As I was listening to my husband all these questions were buzzing through my mind and I had to ask myself (and pray) silently why I was wanting to ask.  

We talked for about an hour and guess what? I found that not one of the questions forming in my head would help me understand better. They all went to answering.

So then I was stuck with the reflecting back.  I thought, "this is going to come out so fake" and I thought my husband would get irritated by me reflecting it.  

But you know what?  When you really care about a person, when you really want to understand them then it doesn't come out that way!

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

These kinds of individual and seemingly insignificant acts, can actually change the tone and tenor of the conversations we have.  And these changes have an effect.  However small it may seem, we have an effect on those around us.  I'd like to think that these small effects can change the world if they are magnified through the small efforts of many people over the course of history.  

You keep trying over there, and I'll keep trying over here.  Thanks again

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Rain said:

I have to come back to this.

This is what really caught me.  I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer.  Then I realized as I was reading that I was what Covey calls "probing".

I had thought that asking questions like that would help me understand better.  After reading I found that wasn't the case. I was asking to answer better. It's VERY different, but I couldn't see that. I sincerely wanted to help you, but giving someone candy when they need water doesn't do much no matter how sincere I am.

As I was listening to my husband all these questions were buzzing through my mind and I had to ask myself (and pray) silently why I was wanting to ask.  

We talked for about an hour and guess what? I found that not one of the questions forming in my head would help me understand better. They all went to answering.

So then I was stuck with the reflecting back.  I thought, "this is going to come out so fake" and I thought my husband would get irritated by me reflecting it.  

But you know what?  When you really care about a person, when you really want to understand them then it doesn't come out that way!

 

Great comments, I'm so glad you shared.  You sound like someone who really tries to pay attention to what is going through your mind.  This has been a challenge for me throughout my life, but one that I've learned a great deal about since finding a mindfulness practice a few years ago.  My thoughts aren't me, that was an amazing insight.  I'm still astounded at the profundity of it.  It helps give me space to process better, but its still something I have to work at every day.  

One thing I find unfortunate about my line of work is that in the business world, having a quick answer with a confident tone of voice gives many people the perception that you are a smart and confident leader.  I hope our culture can change and quit valuing these traits.  I'm sure a quick, confident and decisive answer has its utility, perhaps in a military setting or in times of crisis.  However, there is great value in taking time to understand and listening and acting slowly, with an open handed approach to the situation, rather than a closed fist.  

I love your thoughts, thanks again for the exchange.  All the best to you!  

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Rain said:

When you really care about a person, when you really want to understand them then it doesn't come out that way!

It does if you both have had psych training and had to do it over and over in class, lol.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Great comments, I'm so glad you shared.  You sound like someone who really tries to pay attention to what is going through your mind.  This has been a challenge for me throughout my life, but one that I've learned a great deal about since finding a mindfulness practice a few years ago.  My thoughts aren't me, that was an amazing insight. 

I am loving what I am discovering from mindfulness.  I wish I had discovered it much earlier. I recently listened to the book "The Power of Stillness" which is about  mindfulness from a church perspective and I really liked it. 

It was interesting because I had heard people put down meditation and mindfullness, but as I started looking into it I found it was something different than I expected. Then reading The Power of Stillness showed me how so many of our gospel practices go right with mindfullness, but somehow we don't really internalize how to practice it well.  I love how being mindful for just a few minutes before prayer help me to much better connect with Heavenly Father during prayer.

Would you explain more of what you mean by "My thoughts aren't me" please?

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm still astounded at the profundity of it.  It helps give me space to process better, but its still something I have to work at every day.  

One thing I find unfortunate about my line of work is that in the business world, having a quick answer with a confident tone of voice gives many people the perception that you are a smart and confident leader.  I hope our culture can change and quit valuing these traits.  I'm sure a quick, confident and decisive answer has its utility, perhaps in a military setting or in times of crisis.  However, there is great value in taking time to understand and listening and acting slowly, with an open handed approach to the situation, rather than a closed fist.  

So true! This would really change things up with medicine as well.

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I love your thoughts, thanks again for the exchange.  All the best to you!  

To you as well.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/30/2020 at 11:34 AM, hope_for_things said:

Of course people can come away with different ways of looking at things.  The problems I have are around his confident tone, and his expression that not only does he have answers that make sense for him personally, but that he's saying he can answer these questions for others.  That his witness about how God answers prayers can apply to everyone else.  Did you listen to the video?  He laments a family member who left the church without talking to him, because he spends his time every day answering questions for doubting students.  This is the kind of attitude that I'm very cautious about.  Whether in the religious or secular realm, warning signs are raised for me personally whenever I hear people proclaim this kind of certainty about their abilities.  

 

I agree with your perspective. And further more, we are also dealing here with the doctrine of sovereign election. Not everyone will be brought to the knowledge of the truth, regardless of how much evidence is placed before their eyes. It would be arrogant to believe that we can overrule that principle. 

By the same means, some people will sit in church for a lifetime and will not see the kingdom of God. Why? Because they did not really become a true child of God. They may have "done" the prescribed "things" (the outward performances) but did not really bear fruit. The pure love of Christ was not in them which is the hallmark of the true followers of Christ (Mor. 7:48). Thus they are like the branches that although attached to the true vine, they brought forth no fruit. They are taken away to be burned. 

We are looking for the wheat among the tares. Therefore, some are wheat (those that seek and receive revelation) and some are tares. 

Link to comment
44 minutes ago, Islander said:

I agree with your perspective. And further more, we are also dealing here with the doctrine of sovereign election. Not everyone will be brought to the knowledge of the truth, regardless of how much evidence is placed before their eyes. It would be arrogant to believe that we can overrule that principle. 

By the same means, some people will sit in church for a lifetime and will not see the kingdom of God. Why? Because they did not really become a true child of God. They may have "done" the prescribed "things" (the outward performances) but did not really bear fruit. The pure love of Christ was not in them which is the hallmark of the true followers of Christ (Mor. 7:48). Thus they are like the branches that although attached to the true vine, they brought forth no fruit. They are taken away to be burned. 

We are looking for the wheat among the tares. Therefore, some are wheat (those that seek and receive revelation) and some are tares. 

Burned? That goes against our religion's belief about not being burned I thought, or is that only if temple work is done for them? So no different than the some of the Evangelical's belief...

Where in the scriptures in the BoM does it say they will burned? Nevermind found it: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/6?lang=eng

Edited by Tacenda
Link to comment
19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Burned? That goes against our religion's belief about not being burned I thought, or is that only if temple work is done for them? So no different than the some of the Evangelical's belief...

Where in the scriptures in the BoM does it say they will burned? Nevermind found it: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/6?lang=eng

Unless you are claiming that the Savior "misspoke" in Jon 15, that is exactly what He said. And, as you just found, in Jacob 5 the allegory is quite clear. 

Link to comment
23 minutes ago, Islander said:

Unless you are claiming that the Savior "misspoke" in Jon 15, that is exactly what He said. And, as you just found, in Jacob 5 the allegory is quite clear. 

Yes, chapter 5 in Jacob is but I don't think chapter 6 in Jacob is. This has always been a stumper for me. We are no different than the extreme Calvinist really. 

8 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the aprophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and bdeny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the cgift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a dmock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?

9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with ashame and bawful cguilt before the bar of God?

10 And according to the power of ajustice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that blake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is cendless dtorment.

 

Edited by Tacenda
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

10 And according to the power of ajustice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that blake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is cendless dtorment.

 

I think it is not a matter of doctrine but rather of "traditions". Thru the years, I have heard things in Sacrament or the groups/quorums that are totally outside the scriptures realm, stated as if they were dogma. And, no clarification is offered by the priesthood or leadership. Those statements are left to stand unchallenged. Pretty soon those statements are repeated by others at the local level. You will never hear those things from a general authority but at the local level those errors remain. 

In the other hand, people forget that hell is a real place and eternal death a real predicament. But again, I can't remember the last time that the subject was addressed in Sacrament. It gives people the impression that such predicaments are not really a fact and a destination for most of humanity. 

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Islander said:

I agree with your perspective. And further more, we are also dealing here with the doctrine of sovereign election. Not everyone will be brought to the knowledge of the truth, regardless of how much evidence is placed before their eyes. It would be arrogant to believe that we can overrule that principle. 

By the same means, some people will sit in church for a lifetime and will not see the kingdom of God. Why? Because they did not really become a true child of God. They may have "done" the prescribed "things" (the outward performances) but did not really bear fruit. The pure love of Christ was not in them which is the hallmark of the true followers of Christ (Mor. 7:48). Thus they are like the branches that although attached to the true vine, they brought forth no fruit. They are taken away to be burned. 

We are looking for the wheat among the tares. Therefore, some are wheat (those that seek and receive revelation) and some are tares. 

Thanks, but I’m not sure I follow all your points or agree with them.  I think we both agree that there is danger in yourself up as  a person with the answers to questions though.  

Link to comment

I just listened to a great podcast with Jared Halverson being interviewed by Papa Ostler.  This gave me a much better understanding of where Jared is coming from, and I would actually love to have a conversation with him sometime.  I didn’t find myself agreeing with some of his perspectives, but he overall comes across much more charitable and less sure of himself here.  Still way too confident for my tastes.  I may post some more thoughts on points he makes in this podcast later.

https://m.soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-259-brother-jared-halverson-u-of-u-institute-teacher-helping-those-with-questions

Edited by hope_for_things
Link to comment
3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just listened to a great podcast with Jared Halverson being interviewed by Papa Ostler.  This gave me a much better understanding of where Jared is coming from, and I would actually love to have a conversation with him sometime.  I didn’t find myself agreeing with some of his perspectives, but he overall comes across much more charitable and less sure of himself here.  Still way too confident for my tastes.  I may post some more thoughts on points he makes in this podcast later.

https://m.soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-259-brother-jared-halverson-u-of-u-institute-teacher-helping-those-with-questions

Thank you so much for posting this.  I really enjoyed listening to it.  I love his approach and way of getting to the core of the issues.  His analogy to the story about the cracks in the Salt Lake City Temple foundation was a good one.  I wish I could have attended a few of the events that he talked about, I wouldn't let him take me off the invitation list :).   I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.  Thanks again for sharing, because this topic is important to me.  

Link to comment

When I saw that this video was from LDS Living, I immediately became skeptical as I do not trust LDS Living and their articles.  Secondly, my skepticism increased when he talked about his "qualifications" and that he answered Gospel questions in his profession.  I do not trust academics.  I have caught them changing scripture to make their point.  Specifically, Robert Millet did this and I wrote about it on another LDS forum.  I can't remember the title of his book, but in trying to make his point, he changed scripture - a scripture I know quite well.  This is what he did to change the scripture. 

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide...have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
(Doctrine and Covenants 45:56–57)

Note the added ellipsis (...) in verse 57.  That doesn't belong there and I knew it.  Here is how it is supposed to read.

For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
(Doctrine and Covenants 45:57)

This scripture has three separate clauses separated by commas and each clause is a requirement to "abide the day."  By removing the comma along with the conjunction, "and," he made clauses 2 and 3 into one clause, which changes the meaning of the scripture.  One person on the forum told me she emailed Millet my critique of his book and he responded to her, essentially calling me a pharisee.  So, I am not a fan of academics.  I believe Jared's confidence comes through extensive experience.  I do agree that we all can get answers to our sincere questions.  Note I wrote, "sincere."  I have found that with all too many questions by some people that their questions are less for answers than to poison the minds of those with genuine, sincere questions.  There is another so-called LDS forum on the internet that the majority of the posters use it as a platform to bash the Brethren.  I post on it to defend the Church and cause them as much heartburn as I possibly can. 

I truly believe that we can receive answers to all of our sincere questions.  The key is are they sincere?  Are the questions genuine and an honest quest for the truth?  If they aren't, you won't get an answer.  I also think that too many people want the answers given to them without much effort to find them for themselves.  My son is that way.  He always takes the easy route, which, inevitably, turns out to be the difficult route.  I find that my answers come only after a great deal of searching, asking, seeking, and knocking.

 

 

 

Link to comment
On 4/2/2020 at 12:11 AM, InCognitus said:

Several people here have made some good comments about this.  I find that "Mormonism" does address all the challenging questions, but not always in the way we expect them to be addressed, and I will try to explain what I mean below.

Your post above reminds me of the book of Job, a book that poses some similar questions about suffering and all kinds of other complicated issues.  There's an awesome overview of the book of Job on YouTube by Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz (found here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9LB47o4Q9M).  I keep referring back to this video because I really like his presentation.  And I'll quote or paraphrase some of the things he says below.  

I'm sure you are familiar with Job's story.  When things go downhill for Job, three of his close friends show up and try to comfort him and try to answer Job's hard questions about why horrible things are happening to him. And the whole middle part of the book becomes a philosophical debate, with Job's three friends basically defending the conventional view of morality, which is:  If you behave in accordance with God's will, you will have a good life, and if you don't obey God you will have a bad life.  Job's friends insist that Job must have done some horrible thing to warrant the horrible situation that he found himself in.  But Job insists that he has led a good life and that his friends are wrong.  So Job and his friends go through three rounds of debate, and each time the debate builds upon what was said previously.  And then one other friend shows up at the end with intellectual arguments that are equally unsatisfactory to Job.

Toward the end of the book Job is totally frustrated and unsatisfied with his friend's arguments, and says he want's God to answer his question about why these horrible things are happening to him.  God shows up on the scene, and God knows Job's questions.  But he never answers Job's questions directly.  Instead God shows him a National Geographic Special (as Rabbi Breitowitz puts it) on the wonders of nature.  God shows Job how all of creation is interrelated in complicated and complex ways.  And knowing that there is complexity in how things work together sometimes helps us see our own questions a little differently.  We are not the center of the universe, and the things we do and what happens to us are connected to a complex plan of life.

But Job still has a question, which is: If I'm righteous why are these things happening?  The friends offered an answer:  You must not be righteous.  But Job rejects that.  And when God shows up in the end, he says Job is right (he is righteous), but that makes Job's question much stronger.  Why are these things happening?  

I really like what Rabbi Breitowitz says about this, so I will try to quote him directly here (from about 37:22 in the video):

But I think this is the kind of confidence that is expressed by Jared Halverson in the video that you posted in the OP.  When he confidently says that there is help for our questions, I never got the idea that he was saying that all questions have answers.  But I DO know that going to God for answers can lead to peace of mind and comfort in knowing that God is with us.  And I'm pretty sure that's what he had in mind too.

Thank you for teaching me this, I hope it helped hope for things. I know this story but you brought some insight and inspiration  I had never thought of. 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, alter idem said:

Thank you for teaching me this, I hope it helped hope for things. I know this story but you brought some insight and inspiration  I had never thought of. 

It was all Rabbi Breitowitz there, not me :)   And I know what you mean because I felt the same way, not just from the Rabbi's commentary, but from what I got out of the book (Job).

I don't think the book of Job gets enough attention.  Not only is it one of the greatest literary works of all time, but its message is timeless, and extremely relevant for today, here and now.  

Link to comment
On 3/30/2020 at 9:18 AM, hope_for_things said:

I saw this video pop up on social media and I wasn't familiar with Jared Halverson before.  I wanted to know if anyone here had some additional information about him, has he written any books or published essays?  I couldn't find much through my internet searches.  The background that he mentions in the video sounds somewhat interesting, the fact that he enrolled in a divinity school shows that he likely has received some good education around religion.  

I am skeptical of his approach in this video however.  The confidence that he exudes rubs me wrong.  I think the advice to give people a space to share questions without labeling them negatively, is sound advice.  However, he comes across way too confident that people will receive answers to their questions, and the way he talks about how he wanted to understand what all the challenging questions were and whether the restored gospel satisfactorily answers those questions and that he came away even more convinced that Mormonism really does answer all the challenging questions out there, makes me think that he never really understood those challenging questions in the first place.  

My personal experience is that the more you dig into the really challenging existential questions in life, the more you understand that there are no easy answers for those questions.  That there isn't some faith promoting simple reconciliation for the suffering in this world.  That is my experience, so hence why I'm skeptical of what Jared is sharing here.  But I would like to learn more, because on the other hand I do think that taking away the stigma around asking challenging questions is a good thing in and of itself.  Wanted to get your thoughts and comments.  Thanks

 

 

Thanks for posting that video hft. I enjoyed it. I identify with much of what Jared is trying to accomplish here, because in my experience the Church is very closed to any "truth" which is not in its accepted paradigm of correlated materials, and if I bring up subject matter in this realm, it typically gets quickly shut down. So I think I understand your skepticism to this approach. However, to me what you perceive as Jared's "confidence" is really his enthusiasm in searching for the truth. To me Jared is really  someone who is honestly curious - intellectually curious. Does he believe he has answers. Yes, I think obviously, because he feels he has explored many of these issues himself, and wants to impart his own personal journey, experience, and answers. What's wrong with that? I admire that. In my experience that is not common within the Church. I have criticized the way the Church used to teach because it presented everything said by various Church leaders as "the truth," and everything else as verboten. Class was then merely a memorization presentation, with answers like a fill in the blank test or maybe a multiple choice test with only one correct answer. There was no room for discussion or expanding upon the correlated materials, which is where my mind tends to live. 

The new class time is used in a much better manner. It is more engaging and interesting. So kudos to the Church there. However, it is short on scriptural details. I don't believe you have to have a perfect knowledge of existential matters such as why do we suffer to accept Christ. At a certain point one is simply expected to accept Christ on faith. Otherwise, one ends up like Paul's description of early investigators: 2 Timothy 3:7-8

"7 Ever alearning, and never able to come to the bknowledge of the ctruth."

As for your question about suffering. I believe the answer is found in the atonement. The early saints/Christians felt it an honor to suffer for Him, because He had suffered for us. There is something about trials that is necessary for stretching the soul. It is part of our learning process or testing on the earth. Christ indicated the world would bring His followers suffering, and His followers felt it an honor to endure these things on His behalf. Those that will follow HIm can expect to endure some  suffering or trials as a part of learning to rely upon Him. That is the best I can answer you. You seem to see suffering as being pointless or contrary to a loving God - I believe that it is because He loves us that He tries us in order to teach us to become more like Him. That is our whole point for coming to this earth. God bless hft. 

Link to comment
On 4/17/2020 at 1:41 PM, Islander said:

I think it is not a matter of doctrine but rather of "traditions". Thru the years, I have heard things in Sacrament or the groups/quorums that are totally outside the scriptures realm, stated as if they were dogma. And, no clarification is offered by the priesthood or leadership. Those statements are left to stand unchallenged. Pretty soon those statements are repeated by others at the local level. You will never hear those things from a general authority but at the local level those errors remain. 

In the other hand, people forget that hell is a real place and eternal death a real predicament. But again, I can't remember the last time that the subject was addressed in Sacrament. It gives people the impression that such predicaments are not really a fact and a destination for most of humanity. 

If by eternal death, you mean most of humanity will never escape hell, that is not Church doctrine. Because clearly most of those in the Telestial kingdom are saved from Hell. They were unaccepting of Yeshua, and were wicked, yet they were resurrected from hell in the last resurrection, and somehow (through accepting Christ at the last judgment) were saved anyway according to D & C.  If by eternal death you mean only the scope of their punishment in Hell ie spirit prison, then pardon my interruption.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...