Jesus Christ

[Tanyan]

Johnny,

Show me in the Bible where it says God and Christ don't sound like men when they speak. If you do, I will deny the Mormon church and join you.

Paul O

Paul, its like "THE FORCE !" in Star Wars.

[Paul Osborne]

Paul you are absolutly right, but johnny will not read the refrences in my post above showing the Early Israelite/1ST Century belief system using scripture as there base. Grace to ya.

Yep. But Johnny's argument is flawed because men are symbolically called "sheep", yet we are still men! Hence, Christ is symbolically a Lamb but he is really a Man. So also is his Father.

Paul O

[Tanyan]

True Doctrine Paul !. They see but "see not" [Espesialy on the internet] and hear but hear not .

[Paul Osborne]

Johnny,

Show me in the Bible where it says God and Christ don't sound like men when they speak. If you do, I will deny the Mormon church and join you.

Paul O

Paul, its like "THE FORCE !" in Star Wars.

[Tanyan]

Paul, now jjohnny will accuse you of trying to Brainwash him with scripture, STOP IT !.

[Paul Osborne]

Paul, now jjohnny will accuse you of trying to Brainwash him with scripture, STOP IT !.

Well, what can I say?

It's the word of God.

Paul O

[MorningStar]

I was wondering about something. Is God the Father a man like Jesus is a man? I heard some people around here were knowledgable about that. I get confused easy.

MorningStar

[MorningStar]

Oh - and one more thing. Does "flesh" mean "gender"? I was thinking it was just some stuff in your body.

[Fiat Lux]

Oh - and one more thing.  Does "flesh" mean "gender"?  I was thinking it was just some stuff in your body.

I don't think flesh means gender. I think "biological sex", which is based in flesh, has something to do with human gender, in that people (who have a biological sex) have a gender that normally corresponds with their biological sex.

I do not think God is genderless. But, I don't think he is biologically man or woman. I think he transcends our biologically-/sex-based gender distinctions and is as much like me as he is like my husband, when it comes to gender.

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. " (Isaiah 49:15)

"As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem". (Isaiah 66:13)

"Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child". (Psalms 131:2)

[Paul Osborne]

I was wondering about something. Is God the Father a man like Jesus is a man? I heard some people around here were knowledgable about that. I get confused easy.

MorningStar

What does the Bible say?

Paul O

[MorningStar]

What does the Bible say?

 

Paul O

Uhhhhhhhhh ... It says He's a man!

[roman]

Ok Roman - as per your "challange":

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth alive

[wenglund]

I happen to believe the Bible to be sufficiently vague so as to allow for differing interpretations by reasonable and intelligent people. This includes those subjects dealing with the material nature of God.

I also believe that, within interfaith dialogue (such as exist here), each of those differing interpretations by reasonable and intelligent people should be given due respect.

At the very least, it does no good in such situations to make dogmatic pronouncements back and forth (as made evident by this and other threads). It is doubful that anyone will be convinced one way or another thereby, and the opportunity is lost for gaining greater insignt into how and why we each believe as we do--which, as I see it, should be THE object of such discussions, if not one of the primary objects.

With that having been said, I can see how Johnny can view God the Father as pure spirit (meaning the Father has no body to speak of) even in light of the scriptures that have been quoted which, to the minds of others, may suggest otherwise. I have no doubt that Johnny, and those of his faith, view those same scriptures as true, and have reasonable explanations that reconcile those scriptures with their stated theology. I can respect that.

I only hope that Johnny can say the same in return about the restored gospel of Christ, and its stated beliefs in relation to the Bible regarding the material nature of God.

Then, it is left to those yet wandering the marketplace of ideas to chose which of the various positions speaks more convincingly to their minds, hearts, and spirit.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[MorningStar]

In your rush to say something---anything against my point of view---you made a major blunder. As I read your post I came to the point where you said that flesh equals fallen mortal state.

So Christ never had a mortal body?

[roman]

I only hope that Johnny can say the same in return about the restored gospel of Christ, and its stated beliefs in relation to the Bible regarding the material nature of God.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Very very good and insitefull post and approach to the situation.

I would like to say something about this one line in your post. And I'm not speaking for Johnny---How can he be expected to have a good outlook on those who have attemped to demonize him. He asked taynan several times for scriptural evidence---- all he ever got was mocking and name-calling=====Paul O has trouble answering a direct question-----------Johnny's view is castagated as ludicrist--yet he stated and tried to work it out---lds who opposed him treated him like an iddiot--------

Most mormons here are not like that, but a few here, as far as I'm concerned---have lost all integtity and honesty---and I won't respond to them or acknowledge their views as ligitimate

Other than that excellant post and point of view.

[Beowulf]

Johnny asked for a reference to Moses seeing God's face...

How about Deuteronomy 31, where the writer lauding Moses' memory writes that he was a man who spoke to God "face-to-face".

My Oxford Bible (not LDS, and published around 1988) has a footnote here stating that ancient Israel plainly believed that God had a body, and could be spoken to as one man speaks to another. It was only in later Jewish thinking that God lost his anthropomorphic status.

Margaret Barker (also not LDS) has argued that the statements in Deuteronomy and Exodus that "no man has seen God" are insertions by just such Jewish theologians, tampering with the OT text.

In other words, Johnny, you have been misled by a bunch of Jewish rabbis, coupled with Hellenistic Platonists.

Sad...

It took Joseph Smith to set us straight again...

Beowulf

[Zakuska]

Tanyan

[Paul Osborne]

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Here we are promised that we sons of God will be like the male Christ in the resurrection. We will see him as a Man. That is a sure testimony that Jesus is male.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This is absolute testimony that Jesus is a divine Man. He always will be. That is the gospel.

Paul O

[LDS4EVER]

Tanyan

[emaughan]

To even suggest that Christ had a fallen nature is absolutly rediculous and reders anything else you ahd to say ---null and void.

So what did Christ have when He was in mortality? A perfect, glorified body? Having a mortal body was needed so that He could overcome all the infirmaties/weakness of the flesh - even death. Having a mortal body that is subject to the weakness of the flesh (i.e. he could be hurt, wounded, bleed, get tired, hungry, be tempted, and die), does not mean that He was sinfull in any way. What would be the great accomplishment of resisting temptation if Christ had a perfect body that did not suffer any of the weakness of the flesh? What would the cross mean if not for the fact that Christ had the ability to die thanks to having a mortal body?

In your knee jerk reaction you fail to realize that part of what made Christ so strong was His ability to TOTALY overcome the weakness of the flesh. Again - I never ment to say Christ was fallen or wicked, but in order to pass through the atonement He had to have a mere mortal body that was subject to all the temptations of the flesh. I thought all Christians believed that, just as I thought all Christians believed that Christ and His Father were/are Male. In this I admit now I was totally wrong about what I assumed (because it seems so painfully obvious).

Please next time engage brain before jumping in and saying something as ludicrist as you have----and no I won't read or respond to you for awhile till you can show some integrity

This coming from the person who ignores the plain and simple writings in the scriptures that point out - very clearly - that God is not a genderless creature. This from a person who failed to think for a moment what type of body Christ did have in mortality. Please - show us where it states that Christ had some unique "super" body that made Him so different? The scriptures plainly state that He was man, he got tired, he thirsted, those who looked upon Him would see Him as quite ordinary, He could feel pain and most important, He could die.

As for not reading further - hey its a free world (unless your a Calvinist ), but I think you failed to think a little bit deeper on that one. Did you forget to "engage your brain before jumping in"?

[Zakuska]

Eurika.... I had a brain dump!

Actually Christ went one place that none of us will ever have to go. And that is were Satan is. He decended below everything.

"My God My God why hast though forsaken me"

Because of what he did none of us will ever have to be completely alone.

[emaughan]

Most mormons here are not like that, but a few here, as far as I'm concerned---have lost all integtity and honesty---and I won't respond to them or acknowledge their views as ligitimate

How does one loose integrity and honesty when they are standing up for their beliefs? Unless one actually engages in lieing with the intent to decieve - I would not use either term. By placing such lables when they do not apply simply makes you look like a "poisoner of wells".

When you say I have no integrity because I believe that Christ had a mortal body subject to temptations of the flesh, how on Earth does that have anything to do with integrety??? How is that Roman? It is like me saying that because you have the idea that God is genderless that you have lost all integrity. You need to stop assuming that those that are in strong opposition to some of your beliefs are liars without integrity.

Stubborn

Pigheaded

Thick

Confussed

Misslead

Stupid

Clueless

See there are plenty of terms that can be used AND they would be far more applicable then "dishonest" or "lacks integrity".

[Tanyan]

Paul Osborne

[roman]

In your rush to say something---anything against my point of view---you made a major blunder. As I read your post I came to the point where you said that flesh equals fallen mortal state.

So Christ never had a mortal body?

The question is not did he have a mortal body--because he did of sourts-----but the statement by another was that Christ had a fallen or sin laden body.

One must remember that Christ's body held with in it the glory and pure nature of God. In anothe place Hebrews 10:5 says that a body was prepared for Jesus.

What I get is that Christ body was different in some ways that ours.---Our body cannot contain the glory or pure nature of God--as Christ did as he walked the earth-----hence the reason that we must be changed in our body