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My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal


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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Anything with a dirge-like pace can go.

Hmmmm.

I thought that would be all of them.

Maybe it's our chorister after all

;)

Glad I never subscribed to the chorister infallibility argument.  

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

I believe that is why it was included.  Pretty sure there would be no reason for you to sing it in a church service in the USA.  Actually, i dont know why there would be a reason to sing it or the other patriotic hymns in the hymn book in a church service at all.  As for never singing it, I hope that you would at least stand in respect of the UK if you were at an event where it was appropriately played.   It IS our National Anthem.  The Queen is okay,  but yes, she is a symbol, without power,  but she does have influence.

I suppose she needs saving the same as the rest of us. If she is humble enough to acknowledge that, that is a credit to her. I would have no problem standing for it, but England is not my country. Do you sing America's national anthem? I am thankful for England's stalwartness in the last century. Without her the world may have been overrun with Nazism. She also changed her ways, and let numerous subjects gain autonomy. There is much to her credit.

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1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

I vote that Praise to the Man be removed.

It is clearly prophet worship. 

Neener neener. Glad you brought it up, now I don't have to get all the nasty comments I usually get when I have the guts to bring it up.  Best wishes, you horrible apostate.  ;). :)

 Hey look everybody it wasn't me that brought it up.!

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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There are a couple of songs that I can imagine being sung in a pub with people with arms on shoulders waving their tankards of ale. For example, Scatter the Sunshine.

Not sure I ever recall singing Ye Simple Souls Who Stray. The first half of verse two is quite uplifting (the message, of course, is that with Christ we can not be what is described):

Madness and misery
Ye count our life beneath,
And nothing great or good can see
Or glorious in our death.

 

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1 hour ago, sheilauk said:

You don't know that God Save the King is the UK's national anthem?   Currently we sing Queen instead of King.  On the basis of your same argument for removing in our lovely deseret, they should remove God save the king/queen and also 337, 338, 339 & 340.

So only two national anthems can get in the hymn book? 

Aren't we now supposedly a worldwide Church?

Then I vote for the Polish national anthem. "Poland Is Not Yet Lost."

Seriously.

Them' s some stubborn folks who don't care who is in charge this week.

Napoleon, Nazis, Ruskies, Prussia, who else you got? ;)

It's a flat plain between Germany and Russia, and a great place to try out the new tanks, or other War toys.

"Whatcha doin this weekend"?

"Oh I don't know.

Let's conquer Poland."

Good luck. No one can conquer Poland regardless of who's in charge. :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

341 God Save the King - really? I don't want no earthly king - esp Obama... or Trump...for that matter.

This is kept in so we do not need a separate hymnbook for the UK or the commonwealth. I have sung it once outside of my mission (in England) and that was when we had a lesson on the kingship of God. I kind of wanted it changed then to God Save the Queen so I did not have to change the pronouns each time but there will almost certainly be a king again within the next decade.

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10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So only two national anthems can get in the hymn book? 

Aren't we now supposedly a worldwide Church?

Yes, and I am okay with putting in Australian, South African, New Zealand, and other nation's national hymns into the English hymnbook. I would recommend putting the Polish anthem in the Polish hymnbook.

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9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So only two national anthems can get in the hymn book? 

Aren't we now supposedly a worldwide Church?

Then I vote for the Polish national anthem. "Poland Is Not Yet Lost."

Seriously.

Them' s some stubborn folks who don't care who is in charge this week.

Napoleon, Nazis, Ruskies, Prussia, who else you got? ;)

It's a flat plain between Germany and Russia, and a great place to try out the new tanks, or other War toys.

"Whatcha doin this weekend"?

"Oh I don't know.

Let's conquer Poland."

Good luck. No one can conquer Poland regardless of who's in charge. :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost

 

I don't understand this post.  There are currently only 2 national anthems in the book, decided by the previous committee.   My vote is to have no national anthems in at all because it is a world wide church and we should all have the same and there is no need for the anthems. 

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1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

I vote that Praise to the Man be removed.

It is clearly prophet worship.  We should be singing praises to Christ, not Joseph Smith.

I also don’t care much for Because I Have been given much.  It is hard to sing and I get tired and just Quit.    Same with I believe in Christ.  

Those three are ones I vote to Kick out of the hymnal.

No, it isn't.

So by the standard that all must be about Christ I guess we have to chuck "O My Father" too? It also mentions a divine mother too which sounds a little blasphemous. :vader:

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32 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Do you sing America's national anthem? 

Not in church but yes, I know the anthem and have joined in when in the US.  I would do the same in any country I was visiting, out of respect as their guest. 

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49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Neener neener. Glad you brought it up, now I don't have to get all the nasty comments I usually get when I have the guts to bring it up.  Best wishes, you horrible apostate.  ;). :)

 Hey look everybody it wasn't me that brought it up.!

 

Ha ha, happy to call it out, and I’m not even an apostate, just non-orthodox.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I thougbht I remember them saying that they aren't going to be having patriotic hymns in the hymnal any longer with the new change, which is fine with me.

Not that I doubt you, but do you have a source for that? If you don’t, it’s OK. Don’t spend time searching for it on my account. I’m just curious. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s fairly well known that a new hymn book is in the works. It’s a given that not every hymn in our current hymnal can be carried over into the next one; some will have to be excluded to make room for new compositions and other additions.  I submit herewith my nomination for one such elimination. It is 

Because I Have Been Given Much,” No. 219. 
 

Here are my reasons. 

1. It is difficult for me to sing as arranged.
 

Almost all of the hymns in our book are not keyed in a comfortable vocal range for me to sing the lead or melody part. But since nearly all are arranged in four-part vocal harmony, it’s a simple matter for me to follow the bass line. Since I like to harmonize anyway, it’s a satisfying experience for me to sing our hymns. 
 

Except for 219. It is printed in an arrangement with only a vocal lead part, no harmony. And as I indicated, it is in an uncomfortable key for my range. Some days, if the meeting is early in the day and my vocal cords haven’t quite awakened yet, and that hymn is chosen for congregational singing, I opt not to sing at all because it is too daunting for me to reach those notes. 
 

2. Onerous copyright restrictions. 
 

Almost every one of our hymns may be freely copied for incidental Church or home use. Not so with No. 219. 
 

In the printed hymn book, it carries this notice: 

“All rights reserved. International copyright secured. Used by permission. Making copies without written permission of the copyright owner is prohibited.”

The hymn is only provided in the printed version of the hymn book. It is not available in the digital versions meant for the Church website or its mobile app. I think it fairly obvious this is due to the draconian copyright provisions. 
 

That might also be the reason that only a melody line is provided. Perhaps in order to secure permission to publish the hymn, the Church had to agree not to alter the written arrangement  

 

My point is, why should we put up with this? We have ample selections in our hymnody; we don’t have to choose one with such austere copyright restrictions. It has a nice message in the text, but so do our other hymns and, no doubt, so will the new ones selected for inclusion in the new book. It is not indispensable. 
 

And I don’t find the melody outstanding. 
 

So I’m for voting No. 219 off the island.

 

I LOVE “Because I Have Been Given Much”, I used to sing and rock my grandchildren to sleep with it, still do my youngest granddaughter. I hope they add some songs, like “Amazing Grace”. 

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23 hours ago, Ahab said:

Nope, sorry, we're keeping this one.  One of my and my wife's favorites, played for our wedding, or wedding reception.  If you can't hit the high notes you can switch to a lower octave and then back up again when you want or just sing "oooh" and "ahhh" as appropriate in harmony.

Doesn’t work for me to drop the melody an octave. It puts it way too far in the cellar, and it sounds terrible. I won’t do it.  I would rather try to improvise a bass line, but that’s not easy. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think there would be a brawl if Hymn 219 was removed.  So many people love that song (though it's never been a favorite of mine).

You’re probably right, but some people will be put out no matter which ones are omitted. Honestly, for the reasons I’ve given, I don’t think I’d miss 219. 

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Do you sing America's national anthem? I

Canadians were expected to sing two weeks of American national anthems opening, closing, and rest songs every July in my Canadian ward as our chorister felt it appropriate while we sang O Canada once. Even when the Canadian national holiday, July 1, was the Sunday before the 4th, it was still celebrating the US twice, Canada once. Lots of members had American ties, but I know one Canadian who would walk out each time. But no convincing the chorister. I am so glad they will be gone. 

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38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not that I doubt you, but do you have a source for that? If you don’t, it’s OK. Don’t spend time searching for it on my account. I’m just curious. 

They will have the patriotic songs (assuming these are part of what is meant by local interest) available in the digital archive iirc, so they can tailor it to the country. I will see if I can find a source. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-announces-plans-for-new-hymnbook-and-childrens-songbook?lang=eng

“As an extension to the new printed hymnbook and songbook, additional sacred music will be made available online, including music of local interest in each language,” said Elder LeGrand R. Curtis Jr., a General Authority Seventy and an adviser to the revision project. “The new hymnbook and songbook, as well as music from the current hymnbook and songbook, will also be available online.”“

Edited by Calm
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https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/new-music/frequently-asked-questions?lang=eng
Because the new core collections will be the same in every language, national anthems will not be included in the printed hymnbooks. However, sacred music of local interest may be made available to members by language through digital channels as appropriate and doctrinally correct.”

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6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s fairly well known that a new hymn book is in the works. It’s a given that not every hymn in our current hymnal can be carried over into the next one; some will have to be excluded to make room for new compositions and other additions.  I submit herewith my nomination for one such elimination. It is 

Because I Have Been Given Much,” No. 219. 
 

Here are my reasons. 

1. It is difficult for me to sing as arranged.
 

Almost all of the hymns in our book are not keyed in a comfortable vocal range for me to sing the lead or melody part. But since nearly all are arranged in four-part vocal harmony, it’s a simple matter for me to follow the bass line. Since I like to harmonize anyway, it’s a satisfying experience for me to sing our hymns. 
 

Except for 219. It is printed in an arrangement with only a vocal lead part, no harmony. And as I indicated, it is in an uncomfortable key for my range. Some days, if the meeting is early in the day and my vocal cords haven’t quite awakened yet, and that hymn is chosen for congregational singing, I opt not to sing at all because it is too daunting for me to reach those notes. 
 

2. Onerous copyright restrictions. 
 

Almost every one of our hymns may be freely copied for incidental Church or home use. Not so with No. 219. 
 

In the printed hymn book, it carries this notice: 

“All rights reserved. International copyright secured. Used by permission. Making copies without written permission of the copyright owner is prohibited.”

The hymn is only provided in the printed version of the hymn book. It is not available in the digital versions meant for the Church website or its mobile app. I think it fairly obvious this is due to the draconian copyright provisions. 
 

That might also be the reason that only a melody line is provided. Perhaps in order to secure permission to publish the hymn, the Church had to agree not to alter the written arrangement  

 

My point is, why should we put up with this? We have ample selections in our hymnody; we don’t have to choose one with such austere copyright restrictions. It has a nice message in the text, but so do our other hymns and, no doubt, so will the new ones selected for inclusion in the new book. It is not indispensable. 
 

And I don’t find the melody outstanding. 
 

So I’m for voting No. 219 off the island.

 

I'll give you the copyright part, but I'll keep it for the arrangements. More and more I can't sing soprano the whole way through. I recognized I was an alto long ago.  Still I like to go back and forth.  This is one of the few where I can sing both easily. I like it. 

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3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I vote that Praise to the Man be removed.

It is clearly prophet worship.  We should be singing praises to Christ, not Joseph Smith. ...

I know you probably won't deem my query worthy of a reply, but do you know the back story behind its composition?

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2 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Praising doesn't equal worship though it is part of worship.   I think that it is important to remember and give thanks for the man who gave so much for Christ's church.

I don't think hymns should be removed because someone thinks they are dull or slow or boring or difficult for them to sing.  I am a low alto,  many of the melodies are too high for me,  I just sing them an octave lower.  No biggie!  For every person who thinks that a hymn is awful, there is one who loves it.  There are a number of hymns with copyright protection including one of my favourites, how great though art.  It doesnt seem a good reason to stop singing it to me.  Hymns should be removed if they are not sung in most congregations or they don't reflect doctrine.

A few points in response: 

I agree wholeheartedly with you on “Praise to the Man.” If that one us ever left out, I will be very, very unhappy. 
 

Singing the lead line an octave lower works well for women. It puts them in the tenor range, which sounds fine. It doesn’t work well for men. We end up sounding like fog horns, and we really stick out in a congregation thereby.
 

I had forgotten that “How Great Thou Art” and “If You Could Hie to Kolob” are both copyright restricted. I like both and wouldn’t want to see them omitted. I guess I can put up with the more restrictive copyright for them but not for 219. A matter of personal taste, I guess. 
 

Finally, a hymn not being sung often is not necessarily a good reason all by itself for omission, say I. We are such sticks-in-the-mud that we sing the same 40 or 50 hymns over and over again and resist learning anything new.  Some of the ones we seldom sing are among the prettiest in the hymn book. When the new book comes out, there will be a number of new selections in it. Are we going to resist singing those because we don’t know them? I’ve mentioned before that “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” was in the previous (1948) hymn book but was left out of the current (1985) revision. Why? Because we never sang it! Then, Mack Wiberg got hold of it and arranged it for his BYU choirs and later, the Tabernacle Choir. It thereafter became very, very popular in the Church. People wondered why anyone could have been so stupid to not include it. I know why, because I lived through and observed the sequence of events. 

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13 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

I'll give you the copyright part, but I'll keep it for the arrangements. More and more I can't sing soprano the whole way through. I recognized I was an alto long ago.  Still I like to go back and forth.  This is one of the few where I can sing both easily. I like it. 

But it has no vocal harmony, only a lead (soprano) line. The direction on the sheet music is to sing it in unison. 

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

They will have the patriotic songs (assuming these are part of what is meant by local interest) available in the digital archive iirc, so they can tailor it to the country. I will see if I can find a source. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-announces-plans-for-new-hymnbook-and-childrens-songbook?lang=eng

“As an extension to the new printed hymnbook and songbook, additional sacred music will be made available online, including music of local interest in each language,” said Elder LeGrand R. Curtis Jr., a General Authority Seventy and an adviser to the revision project. “The new hymnbook and songbook, as well as music from the current hymnbook and songbook, will also be available online.”“

I like that. 
 

I’m one who favors patriotic hymns and anthems sung in church. We believe in being good citizens. It’s in one of our Articles of Faith, which makes it scriptural (part of the Pearl of Great Price). And a government that safeguards our civil liberties, especially moral agency and freedom of religion, deserves our support. 
 

P.S. Apparently, even if some of our favorites are left out of the new printed revision they will still be accessible on line. So maybe we can breathe a little easier. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s fairly well known that a new hymn book is in the works. It’s a given that not every hymn in our current hymnal can be carried over into the next one; some will have to be excluded to make room for new compositions and other additions.  I submit herewith my nomination for one such elimination. It is 

Because I Have Been Given Much,” No. 219. 
 

That is my wife's favorite hymn and one of my top ten, so NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I vote that Praise to the Man be removed.

It is clearly prophet worship.  We should be singing praises to Christ, not Joseph Smith.

 

While I personally like the song I agree with you and would be ok if it were gone. Whats wrong with I Believe in Christ? that should stay if any song does.

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