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My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal


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35 minutes ago, bearhoof said:

That one has to stay as my great-grandmother penned the lyrics 🙂

 

oh that's awesome!!!!!!! I looked her up, I knew the name, but didn't realize she was YW General President

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On 1/27/2020 at 3:46 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s fairly well known that a new hymn book is in the works. It’s a given that not every hymn in our current hymnal can be carried over into the next one; some will have to be excluded to make room for new compositions and other additions.  I submit herewith my nomination for one such elimination. It is 

Because I Have Been Given Much,” No. 219. 
 

Here are my reasons. 

1. It is difficult for me to sing as arranged.
 

Almost all of the hymns in our book are not keyed in a comfortable vocal range for me to sing the lead or melody part. But since nearly all are arranged in four-part vocal harmony, it’s a simple matter for me to follow the bass line. Since I like to harmonize anyway, it’s a satisfying experience for me to sing our hymns. 
 

Except for 219. It is printed in an arrangement with only a vocal lead part, no harmony. And as I indicated, it is in an uncomfortable key for my range. Some days, if the meeting is early in the day and my vocal cords haven’t quite awakened yet, and that hymn is chosen for congregational singing, I opt not to sing at all because it is too daunting for me to reach those notes. 
 

2. Onerous copyright restrictions. 
 

Almost every one of our hymns may be freely copied for incidental Church or home use. Not so with No. 219. 
 

In the printed hymn book, it carries this notice: 

“All rights reserved. International copyright secured. Used by permission. Making copies without written permission of the copyright owner is prohibited.”

The hymn is only provided in the printed version of the hymn book. It is not available in the digital versions meant for the Church website or its mobile app. I think it fairly obvious this is due to the draconian copyright provisions. 
 

That might also be the reason that only a melody line is provided. Perhaps in order to secure permission to publish the hymn, the Church had to agree not to alter the written arrangement  

 

My point is, why should we put up with this? We have ample selections in our hymnody; we don’t have to choose one with such austere copyright restrictions. It has a nice message in the text, but so do our other hymns and, no doubt, so will the new ones selected for inclusion in the new book. It is not indispensable. 
 

And I don’t find the melody outstanding. 
 

So I’m for voting No. 219 off the island.

 

I love “Because I Have Been Given Much”, before my injury when my grandchildren were sleepy and no one could quiet them, I would hold them and rock them back and forth singing this song to them, and two of my own children. They would even ask me to sing it to them, while telling me they were not sleepy. However, I am not sure if they went to sleep because of my singing, or just to avoid me continuing to sing, probably the latter. 
 

Now my vote for an additional song would be, “Amazing Grace”, by John Newton. (I believe that is the spelling) It has a wonderful message,  and an ever greater story. The man who wrote it was the captain of many slave ships from Africa to the Colonies. On one of these voyages he was feeling overcome under the weight of these sins, that he listened to one of the “freed slaves” (well free to work as a sailor) who introduced him to the Bible and Christianity. As a result, John Newton, left the slave trade, sold what he had to build a Church, and become a pastor. The song, “Amazing Grace”, was first a sermon written by him, that latter became a song. He did everything for the Church, even the mopping of the floors, no matter how mundane task, seeking to atone for his sins. He also worked very closely with two of his members, James Penn and William Wilberforce, who were members of British Parliament, for years to finally outlaw the slave trade.    It is a wonderful hymn, with a beautiful doctrinal thread that runs throughout it. 

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14 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I love “Because I Have Been Given Much”, before my injury when my grandchildren were sleepy and no one could quiet them, I would hold them and rock them back and forth singing this song to them, and two of my own children. They would even ask me to sing it to them, while telling me they were not sleepy. However, I am not sure if they went to sleep because of my singing, or just to avoid me continuing to sing, probably the latter. 
 

Now my vote for an additional song would be, “Amazing Grace”, by John Newton. (I believe that is the spelling) It has a wonderful message,  and an ever greater story. The man who wrote it was the captain of many slave ships from Africa to the Colonies. On one of these voyages he was feeling overcome under the weight of these sins, that he listened to one of the “freed slaves” (well free to work as a sailor) who introduced him to the Bible and Christianity. As a result, John Newton, left the slave trade, sold what he had to build a Church, and become a pastor. The song, “Amazing Grace”, was first a sermon written by him, that latter became a song. He did everything for the Church, even the mopping of the floors, no matter how mundane task, seeking to atone for his sins. He also worked very closely with two of his members, James Penn and William Wilberforce, who were members of British Parliament, for years to finally outlaw the slave trade.    It is a wonderful hymn, with a beautiful doctrinal thread that runs throughout it. 

SWEET Papa! I love this story of your singing that awesome song to your children and grandchildren! And I agree, "Amazing Grace" is a good one too. And had no idea of the songwriter's history, so poignant! Thanks so much!

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:09 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

But it has no vocal harmony, only a lead (soprano) line. The direction on the sheet music is to sing it in unison. 

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:51 PM, Rain said:

I've never noticed to sing it in unison, but unless I was in choir I wouldn't worry about it. You can sing harmony without it being written. 

I discovered years ago I wasn't singing the alto part in "Come, Come Ye Saints" years ago.  Too many years in Festival of the American West where the alto was different. It didn't sound bad so I continued. Now days, I've naturally done little bits of both.

When you said the above, I just figured the harmony parts weren't there at all and that's why I thought I would probably naturally sing a harmony.

Today though, I looked at the music. There is another harmony part and sometimes two written.  There would be no need to figure out a harmony part on your own. While it may say to sing in unison, the harmony parts are certainly there for people who want them - at least for the women.  

Looking at it then it shows me why you may not like it and I do, because, while there are notes in the baseline they don't really work with singing since the first note is often held while the other notes go on through the measure.

But I love the harmonyies in the treble line especially the last line of each verse.

 

Edited by Rain
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10 hours ago, Rain said:

 

 

When you said the above, I just figured the harmony parts weren't there at all and that's why I thought I would probably naturally sing a harmony.

Today though, I looked at the music. There is another harmony part and sometimes two written.  There would be no need to figure out a harmony part on your own. While it may say to sing in unison, the harmony parts are certainly there for people who want them - at least for the women.  

Looking at it then it shows me why you may like it and I do, because, while there are notes in the baseline they don't really work with singing sing the first note is often held while the other notes go on through the measure.

But I love the harmony's in the treble line especially the last line of each verse.

 

I never said there wasn’t harmony there, but the arrangement is not meant for SATB singing, hence the direction that it be sung in “unison.”

And while women could easily improvise an alto part by reading the instrumental notes that are there, I’m not convinced it would be necessary. Except for a single occurrence of a D flat, the melody line never gets beyond C above middle C, easily within the range of a typical alto voice. Women can easily sing the melody in unison, just as the sheet music directs. 

But as you correctly acknowledged, a bass or tenor part cannot easily be improvised from the bass clef line. And as I’ve already pointed out, the melody is not in a comfortable key for a bass or baritone voice like mine. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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I was raised primarily as a Baptist. One that came to mind this morning is “Low in the Grave He Lay,” called “Christ Arose” in many hymnals. It is typically referred to as "Up from the Grave He Arose." It was composed in 1874 by Robert Lowry. It is kind of an usual song in that the verses are short dirges, but the refrain is peppy and memorable. Lowry wrote the tune for the refrain of an Annie Hawks song I like, "I need thee every hour" which is already in our hymnal. I would like us to add the former too. I miss it.

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On 1/27/2020 at 5:46 PM, sheilauk said:

I believe that is why it was included.  Pretty sure there would be no reason for you to sing it in a church service in the USA.  Actually, i dont know why there would be a reason to sing it or the other patriotic hymns in the hymn book in a church service at all.  As for never singing it, I hope that you would at least stand in respect of the UK if you were at an event where it was appropriately played.   It IS our National Anthem.  The Queen is okay,  but yes, she is a symbol, without power,  but she does have influence.

It has been standard for many years among our congregations in the United States to sing the National Anthem and other patriotic hymns at our worship services around the season of Independence Day (July 4). We rarely do it at other times of the year. 
 

Are you saying y’all in England never sing “God Save the Queen” at church? That surprises me, frankly, but I can understand cultural differences. 
 

P.S. With this weekend’s Brexit event, I’m surmising there might be a greater impetus for you to sing your national anthem for a while at church and in other settings. But maybe not. 

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What is the comparable holiday in England for the American Independence Day and Canadian Confederation Day. The only thing that occurs to me is Guy Fawkes Day, but doesn’t really fit.  Is there a Magna Carta holiday?

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:15 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I like the hymns that are in unison because I can mess with the harmonies when I play them on the organ. Can’t do that when the congregation is singing four part harmony. My son Abogadissimo thinks that’s how the highly ornamented music of the Baroque period got started....Church organists got bored with playing the same tunes and harmonies over and over, so they started adding little things here and there, and then it mushroomed. Sounds likely to me. I get that urge all the time.

I read one time (not certain about the veracity of this account) that when our current, 1985, hymnal was a-preparing, one person on the committee favored the elimination of vocal harmony in our hymn singing and having it mandated that all hymns be sung in unison. I won’t mention any names, but I understand this person was one of our prominent organists. He, like you, probably wanted freedom to improvise on the accompaniments. 
 

What a disastrous move that would have been, a case of the tail wagging the dog! I shall ever be grateful that proposal didn’t get anywhere. For one thing, we have a rich tradition of vocal harmony in the Church that would have been immeasurably damaged thereby. For another thing, judging by the fact that the melody lines of most of our hymns are arranged in keys that are virtually unsingable for me, his proposal to have all hymns sung in unison would have rendered them inaccessible for me with my bass/baritone range. 

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:53 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I love “Because I Have Been Given Much”, before my injury when my grandchildren were sleepy and no one could quiet them, I would hold them and rock them back and forth singing this song to them, and two of my own children. They would even ask me to sing it to them, while telling me they were not sleepy. However, I am not sure if they went to sleep because of my singing, or just to avoid me continuing to sing, probably the latter. 
 

Now my vote for an additional song would be, “Amazing Grace”, by John Newton. (I believe that is the spelling) It has a wonderful message,  and an ever greater story. The man who wrote it was the captain of many slave ships from Africa to the Colonies. On one of these voyages he was feeling overcome under the weight of these sins, that he listened to one of the “freed slaves” (well free to work as a sailor) who introduced him to the Bible and Christianity. As a result, John Newton, left the slave trade, sold what he had to build a Church, and become a pastor. The song, “Amazing Grace”, was first a sermon written by him, that latter became a song. He did everything for the Church, even the mopping of the floors, no matter how mundane task, seeking to atone for his sins. He also worked very closely with two of his members, James Penn and William Wilberforce, who were members of British Parliament, for years to finally outlaw the slave trade.    It is a wonderful hymn, with a beautiful doctrinal thread that runs throughout it. 

I prognosticate that “Amazing Grace” will be included in the next hymn book, judging by how it has grown in popularity among our people. 

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15 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is the comparable holiday in England for the American Independence Day and Canadian Confederation Day. The only thing that occurs to me is Guy Fawkes Day, but doesn’t really fit.  Is there a Magna Carta holiday?

Maybe that’s the difference — no counterpart to Independence Day. 
 

Maybe they could start next year by commemorating the anniversary of Brexit 😆

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23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I read one time (not certain about the veracity of this account) that when our current, 1985, hymnal was a-preparing, one person on the committee favored the elimination of vocal harmony in our hymn singing and having it mandated that all hymns be sung in unison. I won’t mention any names, but I understand this person was one of our prominent organists. He, like you, probably wanted freedom to improvise on the accompaniments. 
 

What a disastrous move that would have been, a case of the tail wagging the dog! I shall ever be grateful that proposal didn’t get anywhere. For one thing, we have a rich tradition of vocal harmony in the Church that would have been immeasurably damaged thereby. For another thing, judging by the fact that the melody lines of most of our hymns are arranged in keys that are virtually unsingable for me, his proposal to have all hymns sung in unison would have rendered them inaccessible for me with my bass/baritone range. 

I would never advocate for eliminating all four-part harmony hymns. I think it is a great tradition that should be maintained. I simply enjoy having the freedom to embellish the accompaniment on the rare occasion that we sing melody-only hymns.You seem to be reading more into my posts about hymns than was intended.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I would never advocate for eliminating all four-part harmony hymns. I think it is a great tradition that should be maintained. I simply enjoy having the freedom to embellish the accompaniment on the very rare occasion that we sing melody-only hymns.You seem to be reading more into my posts about hymns than was intended.

I didn’t mean to imply that you were advocating anything. It’s just that your post prompted me to recall that incident. 
 

And for the record, I am in awe of musicians like you who have the talent to improvise on the fly, whatever musical genre it might be in. 

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A bit of embarrassment on my part today in sacrament meeting.....

Our sacrament hymn was #191, “Behold the Great Redeemer Die.” I had the hymn book opened on the organ music rack. As the bishop announced the hymn, I glanced at the title on the page but not the number. I fixated on his words “....the Great Redeemer die(d)...” Not realizing two hymns on adjacent pages had nearly identical titles, I played the intro to hymn #192, “He Died! The Great Redeemer Died.”

I was bewildered that the congregation was singing so softly. I could barely hear them. A few soldiered on with the text of #191 but the music of #192. It was actually working quite well for me on the organ until I heard the words “he died a sacrifice for sin,” which threw everything off kilter because it is repeated. At that point I looked at the wall rack with the hymn numbers and realized,  “Ohanapecosh! I’m playing the wrong hymn!” 

Oh well. Carry on, carry on, carry on. So after we struggled to the end of the verse, I stopped and played the intro to #191. The chorister was somewhat flummoxed as I said loudly, “Wrong hymn.”

Except for the repeat of that one phrase we could have pulled it off...singing the text of one hymn to a different melody that has the same meter. Sister Gui patted my knee sympathetically when I went to sit by her. We understand that old age is not for sissies. Pretty much destroyed the spirit of the meeting.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A bit of embarrassment on my part today in sacrament meeting.....

Our sacrament hymn was #191, “Behold the Great Redeemer Die.” I had the hymn book opened on the organ music rack. As the bishop announced the hymn, I glanced at the title on the page but not the number. I fixated on his words “....the Great Redeemer die(d)...” Not realizing two hymns on adjacent pages had nearly identical titles, I played the intro to hymn #192, “He Died! The Great Redeemer Died.”

I was bewildered that the congregation was singing so softly. I could barely hear them. A few soldiered on with the text of #191 but the music of #192. It was actually working quite well for me on the organ until I heard the words “he died a sacrifice for sin,” which threw everything off kilter because it is repeated. At that point I looked at the wall rack with the hymn numbers and realized,  “Ohanapecosh! I’m playing the wrong hymn!” 

Oh well. Carry on, carry on, carry on. So after we struggled to the end of the verse, I stopped and played the intro to #191. The chorister was somewhat flummoxed as I said loudly, “Wrong hymn.”

Except for the repeat of that one phrase we could have pulled it off...singing the text of one hymn to a different melody that has the same meter. Sister Gui patted my knee sympathetically when I went to sit by her. We understand that old age is not for sissies. Pretty much destroyed the spirit of the meeting.

In leading the singing in sacrament meeting I’ve had more than one occasion when my mind has wandered during the chorus and I’ve forgotten which verse we’re on. Several seconds of panic set in as I try to decide whether to end the singing at the end of the chorus or continue on to the next verse if there be one. I’ve tended to solve the problem by pausing subtly at the end of the chorus and taking a cue from the organist as to whether or not to continue. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

A bit of embarrassment on my part today in sacrament meeting.....

Our sacrament hymn was #191, “Behold the Great Redeemer Die.” I had the hymn book opened on the organ music rack. As the bishop announced the hymn, I glanced at the title on the page but not the number. I fixated on his words “....the Great Redeemer die(d)...” Not realizing two hymns on adjacent pages had nearly identical titles, I played the intro to hymn #192, “He Died! The Great Redeemer Died.”

I was bewildered that the congregation was singing so softly. I could barely hear them. A few soldiered on with the text of #191 but the music of #192. It was actually working quite well for me on the organ until I heard the words “he died a sacrifice for sin,” which threw everything off kilter because it is repeated. At that point I looked at the wall rack with the hymn numbers and realized,  “Ohanapecosh! I’m playing the wrong hymn!” 

Oh well. Carry on, carry on, carry on. So after we struggled to the end of the verse, I stopped and played the intro to #191. The chorister was somewhat flummoxed as I said loudly, “Wrong hymn.”

Except for the repeat of that one phrase we could have pulled it off...singing the text of one hymn to a different melody that has the same meter. Sister Gui patted my knee sympathetically when I went to sit by her. We understand that old age is not for sissies. Pretty much destroyed the spirit of the meeting.

Conditions were ripe for such an incident in our meeting today. Another pair of hymns with similar titles are adjacent to each other: “I Know That My Redeemer Lives” and “My Redeemer Lives.” Our organist played the right one, though. It helps that in our ward the organists choose the hymns we sing. 
 

Just out of curiosity, is there anything the music director could or should have done to save the day?

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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Conditions were ripe for such an incident in our meeting today. Another pair of hymns with similar titles are adjacent to each other: “I Know That My Redeemer Lives” and “My Redeemer Lives.” Our organist played the right one, though. It helps that in our ward the organists choose the hymns we sing. 
 

Just out of curiosity, is there anything the music director could or should have done to save the day?

The only thing I can think of would be to stop me during the intro. And some grit.

In our ward the hymns are chosen by the music committee chairman with input from and approval of the bishopric. She gives the director and me the list at the beginning of the month. 

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6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In leading the singing in sacrament meeting I’ve had more than one occasion when my mind has wandered during the chorus and I’ve forgotten which verse we’re on. Several seconds of panic set in as I try to decide whether to end the singing at the end of the chorus or continue on to the next verse if there be one. I’ve tended to solve the problem by pausing subtly and taking a cue from the organist as to whether or not to continue. 

Oh yeah! 😀 Our director sat down after the third verse of a four-verse hymn once. We all do crazy things now and then.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The only thing I can think of would be to stop me during the intro. And some grit.

In our ward the hymns are chosen by the music committee chairman with input from and approval of the bishopric. She gives the director and me the list at the beginning of the month. 

I know that’s how it’s supposed to work. Our practice originated a number of years ago when we had a couple of organists who were inexperienced and the thinking was to let them select the hymns they were more confident in playing. 

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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A bit of embarrassment on my part today in sacrament meeting.....

Our sacrament hymn was #191, “Behold the Great Redeemer Die.” I had the hymn book opened on the organ music rack. As the bishop announced the hymn, I glanced at the title on the page but not the number. I fixated on his words “....the Great Redeemer die(d)...” Not realizing two hymns on adjacent pages had nearly identical titles, I played the intro to hymn #192, “He Died! The Great Redeemer Died.”

I was bewildered that the congregation was singing so softly. I could barely hear them. A few soldiered on with the text of #191 but the music of #192. It was actually working quite well for me on the organ until I heard the words “he died a sacrifice for sin,” which threw everything off kilter because it is repeated. At that point I looked at the wall rack with the hymn numbers and realized,  “Ohanapecosh! I’m playing the wrong hymn!” 

Oh well. Carry on, carry on, carry on. So after we struggled to the end of the verse, I stopped and played the intro to #191. The chorister was somewhat flummoxed as I said loudly, “Wrong hymn.”

Except for the repeat of that one phrase we could have pulled it off...singing the text of one hymn to a different melody that has the same meter. Sister Gui patted my knee sympathetically when I went to sit by her. We understand that old age is not for sissies. Pretty much destroyed the spirit of the meeting.

I'll bet it didn't ruin the spirit, just woke some up, haha! 

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17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'll bet it didn't ruin the spirit, just woke some up, haha! 

It was a little early in the meeting to wake up the sleepers, but it did get people's attention!! 

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16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It has been standard for many years among our congregations in the United States to sing the National Anthem and other patriotic hymns at our worship services around the season of Independence Day (July 4). We rarely do it at other times of the year. 
 

Are you saying y’all in England never sing “God Save the Queen” at church? That surprises me, frankly, but I can understand cultural differences. 
 

P.S. With this weekend’s Brexit event, I’m surmising there might be a greater impetus for you to sing your national anthem for a while at church and in other settings. But maybe not. 

Nope, never sung God save the queen at a service of The church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints.  I think it may have been sung at a Remembrance day service at the church of England.   No, Brexit won't create a demand to sing the anthem at church.  Or many other places.   Really,  the anthem is not widely sung.  I don't think it's all that popular, land of hope and glory is more often sung, and there are regular calls to make it an official national anthem with the dirge that is God save the queen left for if she is present. 

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16 hours ago, Calm said:

What is the comparable holiday in England for the American Independence Day and Canadian Confederation Day. The only thing that occurs to me is Guy Fawkes Day, but doesn’t really fit.  Is there a Magna Carta holiday?

Guy fawkes day isn't really comparable,  it's not a holiday and it's not about independence, but about the survival of the king!   It's just an excuse for a party and fireworks.   It's more usually referred to as bonfire night as well now!  Remembrance Sunday (similar to Memorial day, it's when the dead of wars are remembered)  is probably the most patriotic day and is when the national anthem will be sung at services.  England doesn't really have a comparable holiday.  Wales and Scotland have St Davids Day and Burns night (though neither are holiday days! )  Magna Carta day sounds a great idea though!  Our official holidays are new years day, may day (1st may), spring holiday (end of may), August holiday (end if August), good Friday,  easter Sunday,  Christmas day and St Stephens day - 26 December,  known as boxing day in the UK.

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16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe they could start next year by commemorating the anniversary of Brexit 😆

Unlikely.   It's a very divisive issue still and will be for years.

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1 minute ago, sheilauk said:

Unlikely.   It's a very divisive issue still and will be for years.

I thought so. My suggestion was scarcely serious. 

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