Racist Doctrine in Come Follow Me Lesson Manual Already Distributed

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

You missed my point.

But here is something interesting:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagoreporter.com/breaking-myths-about-black-fatherhood-this-fathers-day/%3famp

If you think I missed your point, feel free to clarify. 
 

But I wonder now what your point is in posting that link. Do you really believe and agree that father absence in a home is not harmful to a family, that fathers are pretty much dispensable (a notion, by the way, that pretty much turns Church doctrine on its head)? 
 

Ir did you merely post it because it is “interesting”?

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you think I missed your point, feel free to clarify. 
 

But I wonder now what your point is in posting that link. Do you really believe and agree that father absence in a home is not harmful to a family, that fathers are pretty much dispensable (a notion, by the way, that pretty much turns Church doctrine on its head)? 
 

Ir did you merely post it because it is “interesting”?

“Dispensable”?  I’m not sure what you read but the article points to the CDC’s research showing that “black fathers are the most involved of all primary recorded race and ethnic groups.”

 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

I, for one, don't believe that black people are inherently more prone to crime.  That simply does not ring true to me.  So what is the explanation here?  Does racism really not play a role in these statistics?  If it is true that black people truly do commit more crime (and these numbers are not skewed due to police looking for trouble in one population more than another, or racist false convictions), is that a black person problem or a systemic problem stemming from racism?

On a related note, you all really should watch this movie.  Fantastic!

 

 

Loved that movie, saw it twice. Have you seen America's Got Talent this year? This man endured many years in prison while innocent of the charges.

https://www.oxygen.com/crime-news/archie-williams-wrongfully-convicted-man-wows-on-agt-premiere

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

“Dispensable”?  I’m not sure what you read but the article points to the CDC’s research showing that “black fathers are the most involved of all primary recorded race and ethnic groups.”

 

And yet, there is this census figure:

“With the increasing number of premarital births and a continuing high divorce rate, the proportion of children living with just one parent rose from 9.1% in 1960 to 20.7% in 2012. Currently, 55.1% of all black children, 31.1% of all Hispanic children, and 20.7% of all white children are living in single-parent homes.
“Source: U.S. Census Bureau. “Living Arrangements of Children Under 18 Years Old: 1960 to Present”. U.S.  Census Bureau July 1, 2012.“

Cited on this web page:

http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/

(Emphasis mine)

And there is this in the publication Afro, the Black Media Authority:

“In its annual “America’s Families and Living Arrangements” data collection, the [Census] Bureau examined marriage and family, the living arrangements of older adults and other household characteristics.

“It found that a majority of the 73.7 million American children under age 18 live in families with two parents (69 percent)—a decrease from 88 percent in 1960. Of those 50.7 million children living in families with two parents, 47.7 million live with two married parents and 3 million live with two unmarried parents.

“Broken down by race, however, the statistics show stark differences.  The percentage of White children under 18 who live with both parents almost doubles that of Black children, according to the data. While 74.3 percent of all White children below the age of 18 live with both parents, only 38.7 percent of African-American minors can say the same.

“Instead, more than one-third of all Black children in the United States under the age of 18 live with unmarried mothers—compared to 6.5 percent of White children. The figures reflect a general trend: During the 1960-2016 period, the percentage of children living with only their mother nearly tripled from 8 to 23 percent and the percentage of children living with only their father increased from 1 to 4 percent. 

“Social scientists have long espoused the benefits for children who live in two-parent homes, including economic, educational, health and other advantages.“

https://www.afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/

There can be no adequate replacement for an intact family with the father’s physical presence in the home. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And yet, there is this census figure:

“With the increasing number of premarital births and a continuing high divorce rate, the proportion of children living with just one parent rose from 9.1% in 1960 to 20.7% in 2012. Currently, 55.1% of all black children, 31.1% of all Hispanic children, and 20.7% of all white children are living in single-parent homes.
“Source: U.S. Census Bureau. “Living Arrangements of Children Under 18 Years Old: 1960 to Present”. U.S.  Census Bureau July 1, 2012.“

Cited on this web page:

http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/

(Emphasis mine)

And there is this in the publication Afro, the Black Media Authority:

“In its annual “America’s Families and Living Arrangements” data collection, the [Census] Bureau examined marriage and family, the living arrangements of older adults and other household characteristics.

“It found that a majority of the 73.7 million American children under age 18 live in families with two parents (69 percent)—a decrease from 88 percent in 1960. Of those 50.7 million children living in families with two parents, 47.7 million live with two married parents and 3 million live with two unmarried parents.

“Broken down by race, however, the statistics show stark differences.  The percentage of White children under 18 who live with both parents almost doubles that of Black children, according to the data. While 74.3 percent of all White children below the age of 18 live with both parents, only 38.7 percent of African-American minors can say the same.

“Instead, more than one-third of all Black children in the United States under the age of 18 live with unmarried mothers—compared to 6.5 percent of White children. The figures reflect a general trend: During the 1960-2016 period, the percentage of children living with only their mother nearly tripled from 8 to 23 percent and the percentage of children living with only their father increased from 1 to 4 percent. 

“Social scientists have long espoused the benefits for children who live in two-parent homes, including economic, educational, health and other advantages.“

https://www.afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/

There can be no adequate replacement for an intact family with the father’s physical presence in the home. 

If you would actually read my article, we can stop wasting our time with material that has already been addressed. 

[Meadowchik]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you would actually read my article, we can stop wasting our time with material that has already been addressed. 

Thank you for the article, I found it very important. I really appreciated the point about being the most involved. It is possible to have a physically intact family unit that is still very detached, specifically where children suffer from the lack of involvement of one or both parents. 

[Dan McClellan]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There can be no adequate replacement for an intact family with the father’s physical presence in the home. 

To what factor(s), precisely, are you suggesting this issue among Black families is owed?

[Dan McClellan]

On 6/5/2020 at 2:37 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

It wouldn’t be that black men as a segment of the population are more apt to commit violent crime, would it? 

Two things:

1) Even when controlling for these factors, a Black suspect who is unarmed is as likely to be shot at by police as a white suspect who is armed. There are other issues that betray a marked disparity, too. White drivers are 2 times more likely to be in possession of contraband than Black drivers, but Black drivers are 2–5 times more likely to be stopped for a vehicles search. It would be explicit racial profiling for a police officer to say they disproportionately stop Black drivers because they are "more apt to commit violent crime."

2) What underlying factors contribute to the disparity of that aptness? 

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

Two things:

1) Even when controlling for these factors, a Black suspect who is unarmed is as likely to be shot at by police as a white suspect who is armed. There are other issues that betray a marked disparity, too. White drivers are 2 times more likely to be in possession of contraband than Black drivers, but Black drivers are 2–5 times more likely to be stopped for a vehicles search. It would be explicit racial profiling for a police officer to say they disproportionately stop Black drivers because they are "more apt to commit violent crime."

2) What underlying factors contribute to the disparity of that aptness? 

If these are accurate, are police just racist - black, white, Asian, officers are all racists? Why?  Serving their communities did everyone wake up one day and just determine we are going to hate black folks today. Or, is it something else?

I have always learned in a conflict that it takes two; there is never just one story. What are the contributing factors of both sides in this conflict?

Why is the news so slanted?  George Floyd had serious heart disease, was on drugs and no one talks about it. An officer could have used the identical knee on the neck and done no damage to a healthy individual. Why is this hidden from the public? Who benefits when this type of information is hidden?

[Dan McClellan]

19 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If these are accurate, are police just racist - black, white, Asian, officers are all racists? Why?  Serving their communities did everyone wake up one day and just determine we are going to hate black folks today. Or, is it something else?

Because our country was literally built on the backs of Black slaves, the rationalization of whose enslavement is baked into the American experience. We are conditioned by the entirety of the American social, political, educational, and economic system to think of Black folks as more criminal and as less capable than others. Most of that operates on the intuitive side of our reasoning, and many of us have developed reflective decoupling techniques that help us override those intuitions, but implicit bias has been so repeatedly demonstrated by the data as to be entirely beyond dispute. We all experience it to one degree or another, no matter how convinced we are that we're above it. Now, implicit bias isn't the only reason, but it's a significant one. Here's one study from 2015 that demonstrated that Black folks were 2.8 times MORE likely to be killed by police than white folks despite being more than 50% LESS likely to be armed when killed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

This other study from 2019 puts the odds of a Black person being killed by police at 2.5 times more likely than a white person:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

We could identify dozens and dozens of such studies. 

Quote

I have always learned in a conflict that it takes two; there is never just one story. What are the contributing factors of both sides in this conflict?

That's a great question, but unfortunately, it only seems to get asked when we're looking for reasons to have Black folks shoulder the blame. Too frequently, what happens is that someone points out that Black folks are more likely to commit violent crime (as someone has done already in this thread). The question of what factors contribute to that condition doesn't get asked, because the rhetorical goal isn't understanding, it's defending an ideology. I explain above that we all experience implicit bias, and our culture does a great job of aiming a lot of that bias at Black folks. 

Quote

Why is the news so slanted?  George Floyd had serious heart disease, was on drugs and no one talks about it. An officer could have used the identical knee on the neck and done no damage to a healthy individual. Why is this hidden from the public? Who benefits when this type of information is hidden?

The autopsy does not list the drugs as contributing at all to his death. It sounds like you're trying to make excuses for why it should be ok for these officers to have used a non-approved method of restraint for almost 10 minutes while they ignored Floyd's cries for help and even for his already-deceased mother. Why did they lie on their report about his having resisted arrest? Why did they place him under arrest in the first place for a situation that usually does not involve law enforcement at all? Have you given in to some implicit bias?

[CA Steve]

48 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

We are conditioned by the entirety of the American social, political, educational, and economic system to think of Black folks as more criminal and as less capable than others. Most of that operates on the intuitive side of our reasoning, and many of us have developed reflective decoupling techniques that help us override those intuitions, but implicit bias has been so repeatedly demonstrated by the data as to be entirely beyond dispute. We all experience it to one degree or another, no matter how convinced we are that we're above it.

I saw this within myself recently. A good friend messaged me with a link to Facebook article about his immediate neighborhood. The article claimed that 100 black men had been brought in to a house in his upscale neighborhood and stashed there in a B&B for the next day's planned protest, ready to riot and loot the neighborhood,  It also claimed they were being paid $200.00 each as part of the deal. The police had raided the house and evicted the people as the story went.  Several parts of the story did not ring true to me , why rent a house, why pay them when they are there to loot, and a hundred seemed like an inordinate amount of people to try and hide in a house for 24 hours or so.

The story turned out not to be true. A group of people had legally rented a B&B, were having a party and the police stopped by to check on the group and house. No arrests were made nor was anyone evicted. The group stayed there for another 24 hours.

 

I realize much later on a part of the story that didn't raise my suspicions was that these were all "black men". Had the story been just "men" or even "white men" I believe I would have doubted it even more. But I was more willing to think it was possible since the description was "black men" there to do bad things.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Dan McClellan said:

Because our country was literally built on the backs of Black slaves, the rationalization of whose enslavement is baked into the American experience. We are conditioned by the entirety of the American social, political, educational, and economic system to think of Black folks as more criminal and as less capable than others. Most of that operates on the intuitive side of our reasoning, and many of us have developed reflective decoupling techniques that help us override those intuitions, but implicit bias has been so repeatedly demonstrated by the data as to be entirely beyond dispute. We all experience it to one degree or another, no matter how convinced we are that we're above it. Now, implicit bias isn't the only reason, but it's a significant one. Here's one study from 2015 that demonstrated that Black folks were 2.8 times MORE likely to be killed by police than white folks despite being more than 50% LESS likely to be armed when killed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

This other study from 2019 puts the odds of a Black person being killed by police at 2.5 times more likely than a white person:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

We could identify dozens and dozens of such studies. 

That's a great question, but unfortunately, it only seems to get asked when we're looking for reasons to have Black folks shoulder the blame. Too frequently, what happens is that someone points out that Black folks are more likely to commit violent crime (as someone has done already in this thread). The question of what factors contribute to that condition doesn't get asked, because the rhetorical goal isn't understanding, it's defending an ideology. I explain above that we all experience implicit bias, and our culture does a great job of aiming a lot of that bias at Black folks. 

The autopsy does not list the drugs as contributing at all to his death. It sounds like you're trying to make excuses for why it should be ok for these officers to have used a non-approved method of restraint for almost 10 minutes while they ignored Floyd's cries for help and even for his already-deceased mother. Why did they lie on their report about his having resisted arrest? Why did they place him under arrest in the first place for a situation that usually does not involve law enforcement at all? Have you given in to some implicit bias?

California was built on the backs of Chinese. Just an FYI.

Do you have any solutions? 

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

Because our country was literally built on the backs of Black slaves, the rationalization of whose enslavement is baked into the American experience. We are conditioned by the entirety of the American social, political, educational, and economic system to think of Black folks as more criminal and as less capable than others. Most of that operates on the intuitive side of our reasoning, and many of us have developed reflective decoupling techniques that help us override those intuitions, but implicit bias has been so repeatedly demonstrated by the data as to be entirely beyond dispute. We all experience it to one degree or another, no matter how convinced we are that we're above it. Now, implicit bias isn't the only reason, but it's a significant one. Here's one study from 2015 that demonstrated that Black folks were 2.8 times MORE likely to be killed by police than white folks despite being more than 50% LESS likely to be armed when killed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

This other study from 2019 puts the odds of a Black person being killed by police at 2.5 times more likely than a white person:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

We could identify dozens and dozens of such studies. 

That's a great question, but unfortunately, it only seems to get asked when we're looking for reasons to have Black folks shoulder the blame. Too frequently, what happens is that someone points out that Black folks are more likely to commit violent crime (as someone has done already in this thread). The question of what factors contribute to that condition doesn't get asked, because the rhetorical goal isn't understanding, it's defending an ideology. I explain above that we all experience implicit bias, and our culture does a great job of aiming a lot of that bias at Black folks. 

The autopsy does not list the drugs as contributing at all to his death. It sounds like you're trying to make excuses for why it should be ok for these officers to have used a non-approved method of restraint for almost 10 minutes while they ignored Floyd's cries for help and even for his already-deceased mother. Why did they lie on their report about his having resisted arrest? Why did they place him under arrest in the first place for a situation that usually does not involve law enforcement at all? Have you given in to some implicit bias?

Thank you for this. Objective and fact-driven. Thank you.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

California was built on the backs of Chinese. Just an FYI.

Do you have any solutions? 

California was built on the backs of multiple races sadly, some free, others not. 
 

https://www.californiasun.co/stories/californias-black-slaves-and-the-myth-of-free-soil/

California ratified 14th amendment in 1959

https://www.onevoter.org/2015/06/29/14th-amendment/
 

15th amendment 1962

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Ratification
 

Don’t remember getting taught that in my high school History class (San Fran suburb, higher income with busing and many ‘enlightened’ teachers and administrators)

Edited June 7, 2020 by Calm

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I have always learned in a conflict that it takes two; there is never just one story. What are the contributing factors of both sides in this conflict?

There is a long history.  It ain’t pretty.  It starts with racism. Does anyone really think 400 years of systemic racism can be eradicated in just a few decades?  It is like bindweed who’s roots run terribly deep and no matter how much you try to yank it out, it manages to pop up and infest your garden over and over again.  Conversely, does anyone really think the negative impact of that racism can be erased from the psyche of a people that has been so long hated and viewed as cursed (still to this day) in a matter of a few decades? Might that play into some of these stats?

Edited June 7, 2020 by pogi

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

California was built on the backs of Chinese. Just an FYI.

Another FYI (not saying you do this here since I don’t know why you posted this, but the treatment of Asians in discussions about racism is highly problematic in general):

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/12/countering-stereotypes

 

Quote

The so-called “model minority” stereotype, one of the most pervasive and harmful assumptions about Asian Americans, holds that Asian Americans are a uniformly high-achieving racial minority that has assimilated well into American society through hard work, obedience to social mores and academic achievement. The term was first used in the 1960s by academics and journalists—and later by politicians—to create a divide among racial minorities and to downplay the role of racism in the inequities of American society, says Richard Lee, PhD, a professor of psychology at the University of Minnesota who studies race and ethnicity.

“In the midst of advocacy against racism, this was a very convenient tool,” Lee says. “Elevating Asian Americans as a model minority essentially absolved white systems from taking real accountability for the inequities they’ve created.”

 

[rodheadlee]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

California was built on the backs of multiple races sadly, some free, others not. 
 

https://www.californiasun.co/stories/californias-black-slaves-and-the-myth-of-free-soil/

California ratified 14th amendment in 1959

https://www.onevoter.org/2015/06/29/14th-amendment/
 

15th amendment 1962

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Ratification
 

Don’t remember getting taught that in my high school History class (San Fran suburb, higher income with busing and many ‘enlightened’ teachers and administrators)

When I lived in the Delta area we were taught by the locals that the Delta was built by the Chinese by hand.

[rodheadlee]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Another FYI (not saying you do this here since I don’t know why you posted this, but the treatment of Asians in discussions about racism is highly problematic in general):

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/12/countering-stereotypes

 

 

I posted it to dispute the fact that America was built on the backs of the blacks alone.

The Irish, the Italians, and the Jews were all discriminated against. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by rodheadlee

[Calm]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

When I lived in the Delta area we were taught by the locals that the Delta was built by the Chinese by hand.

In my schooling, Asian experience was discussed heavily up to WWII Japanese internment camps.  Then they more or less disappeared from the story.  There were very few Asians in my high school now Ithink about it...never questioned it then even though we had field trips to Chinatown.  Teaching about current racism was focused on black and Hispanics, some Jewish. 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I posted it to dispute the fact that America was built on the backs of the blacks alone.

Anyone claimed that?  Pointing out one group doesn’t exclude others, however blacks were probably the longest and most consistent unfree labor force.  I am thinking likely largest as well. 

 Plus they didn’t come here by choice which makes a huge difference  imo.  Coming as immigrants or even refugees versus captive slaves and living as such...that makes a huge difference in creating community culture.  I don’t see how one can be compared to the other in terms of claiming they were very similar except in simplistic ways.  I haven’t studied early Asian immigrants though.  From what I have seen they have their own set of issues. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Calm

[Dan McClellan]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

California was built on the backs of Chinese. Just an FYI.

Do you have any solutions? 

Yeah, and there's a ton of racism involved in how we treat Asian folks, too. They have the additional problem of the model minority myth, too, so the expectations regarding Asians is much different. Can't forget Hispanics, either, though, when talking about California. This is many years after the founding of our country, though. 

Lots of people have offered lots of solutions. President Obama's recent online town hall featured a list of eight principles that research suggests could reduce police violence by 72%:

https://8cantwait.org/

For real systemic change, though, we've gotta correct for discriminatory housing practices, we need to fix the school-to-prison pipeline, we need to adequately fund schools based on something other than property taxes, we need prison reform, we need books, television, movies, and the media to give power over to POC to tell their own stories instead of using them to punctuate white-centered stories with stereotypes. A good place to start learning what we can to do combat systemic racism is here:

https://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Antiracist-Ibram-Kendi/dp/0525509283

[Dan McClellan]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I saw this within myself recently.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's not an easy thing for many people to realize, and we've got a lot of cognitive forces pushing back against us (see the article below, for instance). Learning to recognize this in ourselves is a big first step, though. We start to realize just how pervasive it is, and hopefully that leads us to try to make a change. I've seen more people come to this realization in the last two weeks than in any two-week span of my entire adult life, which is a very good thing. 

https://wesfiles.wesleyan.edu/courses/PSYC-309-clwilkins/week14/Unzueta2008.pdf

Edited June 7, 2020 by Dan McClellan

[BlueDreams]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:55 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I could give reasons, but I’d probably get dinged for being political. 
 

But you might consider my recommendation of the thoughts of Candace Owens. 

I know the thread has moved a little past this, and I don’t want to get political. I don’t think what i have to say with candace is that, though. 
 

Telling anyone to listen to Candace Owens to get a black perspective, is like asking someone go listen to kate kelly or john dehlin to get a good perspective of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. You’ll get a perspective, yes. But you won’t get an accurate understanding of what the community and people within it generally think, experience, or believe. Their voices only click with those who already basically agree with them and almost no one else.

 

If one wants a good synopsis or understanding of black experiences in the US, that is not the place i’d start. 
 

with luv, 

BD
 

[CA Steve]

38 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

Yeah, and there's a ton of racism involved in how we treat Asian folks, too. They have the additional problem of the model minority myth, too, so the expectations regarding Asians is much different. Can't forget Hispanics, either, though, when talking about California. This is many years after the founding of our country, though.

I think we too often forget another important minority who has suffered more than any other in the America's. America may have been built on the back of black slave labor but it was built on the land and graves of native Americans.

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

think we too often forget another important minority who has suffered more than any other in the America's.

I think we run into problems when we try to quantify suffering and then set up comparisons. First it is impossible to know the context. Second different people rate suffering in  different ways. And last and most important, it can become na contest that ends Hup being dismissive of those that are seen to gave suffered less.

I think it can feel dismissive of people’s pain if we start to point to others’ suffering without carefully addressing the pain of the ones who are asking to be considered first in any conversation, whether with individuals or groups.  I am not saying it has to be solved, but we should be careful to ensure they feel recognized before expanding the conversation (and I am often guilty of this which is why it occurs to me now).

My hope is that examining and starting to work on healing the suffering of some, what heels one group will help many. For example, I can’t think of any groups who wouldn’t benefit from implementing effective reforms for police initiated violence. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Calm