Racist Doctrine in Come Follow Me Lesson Manual Already Distributed

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yikes! That quote was pretty hardcore, especially given the time (1950s) and the references to the civil rights movement.

I remember helping him when I worked at the U of U medical center. I'd like to have given him a talking to, but had no idea of this talk.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

This is your only good quote as per Lamanites . Problem is Cain was not from the House of Israel as it did not yet exist.  

It doesn't sound like you really read my posts.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

Yeah I guess Peterson said that allright.

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

Yeah I guess Peterson said that allright.

 

Yes and don't forget Spencer W Kimball speaking of how wonderful it was that Lamanite children were getting whiter through the placement program of the church. According to him, they had been cursed by the sins of their forefathers.

[Meadowchik]

39 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for providing these quotes.  These kinds of racist ideas are so disgusting to my eyes that I have a hard time reading them.  I forced myself to read them today and I'm reminded how allegiance to authority can be so corrosive and evil.  You can even see in Peterson's quotes how he places authoritative statements from Brigham Young and scripture as unquestionable and that through this perspective he creates a paradigm that justifies slavery and segregation.  This is just evil, pure and simple and its coming from a modern prophet, seer and revelator.  

I will never pledge allegiance to the authority figures of this church or any other institution again.  I'm so glad for my faith journey that broke me out of my unquestioning faith in authority figures.  

There needs to be direct repudiation. 

The BOM perpetuates false notions that children are cursed for the sins of others, it has projected that narrative onto indigenous peoples, and legitimised Biblical narratives of racial curses. 

Yet there were more enlightened people in that time of Joseph Smith who proclaimed basic human rights and actively fought for them.

 

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

There needs to be direct repudiation. 

The BOM perpetuates false notions that children are cursed for the sins of others, it has projected that narrative onto indigenous peoples, and legitimised Biblical narratives of racial curses. 

Yet there were more enlightened people in that time of Joseph Smith who proclaimed basic human rights and actively fought for them.

 

Agreed, and a formal apology would be very nice as well.  Martin Luther King Jr. day would be nice timing for that kind of an apology.  🙂

[poptart]

As someone who's mom went to BYUH and saw this stuff waaaay back in the day, they don't seem to care.  Took me a while to figure out why.  Like the natives here, when what seemed like most folks were just exploiting the Hawaiians you guys and the Catholic Church actually tried to help.  You guys sent your first missionaries to the natives here then elsewhere natives lived.  I think Samoa has a like, 2/3rds LDS population and the Asian saints i've met were quite nice, my first GF was a saint from Japan, no complaints from me at all.

It was the religious people here who tended to give me the most grief and to this day make my stomach churn.  A good LDS friend of mine's family adopted 2 Navajo girls out of charity, meanwhile a good chunk of the caucasian relatives I have here, esp. the younger ones are quite racist and entitled.  You guys get a pass from me.

Also, to be fair, from what I remember of the BOM, the last part where the Lamanites uhhh, had some interesting dietary practices involving the Nephites?  That was pretty bad lol.

BTW, going through this thread, this is why I like you guys, far as I can tell people here stateside are becoming more divided and well, in some cases quite racist by the day.  It's sickening to watch.  At least you guys try to build bridges.

Edited January 20, 2020 by poptart

[Jeanne]

I am one of those that had a Pueblo Indian sister in my home...truthfully, my father and others in the ward who took the rest of her family...waited and even said that they whiter.  How in the world do I forget this???  It was there..it was real...and a prophet said so.

[Fair Dinkum]

9 hours ago, Alan said:

It's not racist doctrine. The scripture clearly states that the Lamanites were cursed with a dark skin.

Treating human beings differently based solely on the colour of their skin is racism.

[Fair Dinkum]

8 hours ago, provoman said:

Your lack of presenting data to support your conclusion is my measure.

 

So you believe that a large percentage of church membership do not believe that the dark skin supposedly imposed on the lamanites was a curse as spelled out in the Book of Mormon?  

By what measure do you base that assertion?

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So you believe that a large percentage of church membership do not believe that the dark skin supposedly imposed on the lamanites was a curse as spelled out in the Book of Mormon?  

By what measure do you base that assertion?

Thank you for responding. I appreciate that you took the time to respond. It does not appear to me that you have provided the basis by which you claim a "large percentage", I see no reason to pursue the issue further. 

[juliann]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336

 

It never fails. Is there anyone alive on a message board that has not seen these disgusting quotes? Does it ever occur to you that we might have POC here? Why in the world would you drag this trash around? To score a cheap point? To make sure they will never ever forget the abuse?  If white privilege ever applies it sure does here. You should be ashamed.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, juliann said:

It never fails. Is there anyone alive on a message board that has not seen these disgusting quotes? Does it ever occur to you that we might have POC here? Why in the world would you drag this trash around? To score a cheap point? To make sure they will never ever forget the abuse?  If white privilege ever applies it sure does here. You should be ashamed.

No, BY should be ashamed, and those that agreed to his nonsense all those years ago. White privilege? What are you talking about here? I went to see "Harriet" today in honor of MLK, so I'm a little wrapped up in the white privilege that went on in those days, and continues today. So my nerves are on edge about the stuff that happens. Also, Meadowchik didn't quote until she was asked for specific quotes. 

Why do we continue talking about the Holocaust? So it won't be forgotten nor repeated! When evil is present, put light on it.

I've seen this one a lot today. 

Martin Luther King Jr./Quotes

 

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

 

The time is always right to do what is right.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Tacenda

[Danzo]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, BY should be ashamed, and those that agreed to his nonsense all those years ago. White privilege? What are you talking about here? I went to see "Harriet" today in honor of MLK, so I'm a little wrapped up in the white privilege that went on in those days, and continues today. So my nerves are on edge about the stuff that happens. Also, Meadowchik didn't quote until she was asked for specific quotes. 

Why do we continue talking about the Holocaust? So it won't be forgotten nor repeated! When evil is present, put light on it.

I've seen this one a lot today. 

Martin Luther King Jr./Quotes

 

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

 

The time is always right to do what is right.

 

It is so easy to go around judging dead people. Makes one feel so self righteous and superior.  It is so much easier to tell someone has been dead over a hundred years to be ashamed of himself. Than to face one's own weakness.  

[Calm]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I view a lot of the perspectives here still using the US paradigm around race to understand and grapple with this topic, which limits the options as to how we can read it and viewing other perspectives of these passages as feeling inaccurate or impossible (or at least improbable). So they get dismissed before they’re really explored. And we’re left either grappling, defending, or cutting out the old views and perspectives. 
 

Repeating this because it appears to be ignored by most.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

It is so easy to go around judging dead people. Makes one feel so self righteous and superior.  It is so much easier to tell someone has been dead over a hundred years to be ashamed of himself. Than to face one's own weakness.  

True! I've got tons of weaknesses. I usually keep to this board only with my criticisms. And was going to try to be less vocal but it was a bad day to shut up I guess. Came on here at 1 am to delete after worrying over it and found that you'd already quoted me. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

It never fails. Is there anyone alive on a message board that has not seen these disgusting quotes? Does it ever occur to you that we might have POC here? Why in the world would you drag this trash around? To score a cheap point? To make sure they will never ever forget the abuse?  If white privilege ever applies it sure does here. You should be ashamed.

I made a general point and was asked for CFRs. I said to read BY and Peterson. Then I was asked for specific quotes, so I gave them.

The church needs to repudiate garbage like this directly and clearly. It is still floating on the surface like in the current manual and it is still around for those digging deeper. Also, those who dig deeper will see glaring examples of leaders saying one thing while doing another, like with polygamy, which can easily translate into dog whistles.

Pretending the muck is not there helps noone.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

It is so easy to go around judging dead people. Makes one feel so self righteous and superior.  It is so much easier to tell someone has been dead over a hundred years to be ashamed of himself. Than to face one's own weakness.  

Understanding history helps us understand ourselves. The church's history is our history.

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, BY should be ashamed, and those that agreed to his nonsense all those years ago. White privilege? What are you talking about here? I went to see "Harriet" today in honor of MLK, so I'm a little wrapped up in the white privilege that went on in those days, and continues today. So my nerves are on edge about the stuff that happens. Also, Meadowchik didn't quote until she was asked for specific quotes. 

Why do we continue talking about the Holocaust? So it won't be forgotten nor repeated! When evil is present, put light on it.

I've seen this one a lot today. 

Martin Luther King Jr./Quotes

 

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

 

The time is always right to do what is right.

 

Thanks, and I think the problem with nonrepudiation are teachings like those of BYU professor Randy Bott. He was teaching racist views when I was at BYU in the 90s and people complained. But he remained and continued those teachings. It was only after the 2012 Romney campaign for POTUS that his comments generated change, after which he retired and also removed his blog which was full of those similar teachings.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Understanding history helps us understand ourselves.

I am not seeing much attempt at understanding themselves by those putting up these quotes time and time again.  More often they are acting as if they understand others' hearts and intents and therefore have the right to judge others without any examination of what similar behaviours and views they might have against others.

There is a difference between using history to explore the human experience and to try to put ourselves with humility in others' situations and using history to stand on a pedestal, certain in our judgment, and condemn others for failing your standards.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

Dialogue for Mormon Thought has posted several articles, one from a BYU professor, several from students and former students of colour talking about the issue of race and the church: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/issues/fall-2019/?fbclid=IwAR1XA7h_E9OtpV4zFrS9q-8X5nmkjiOTm5z6qXsjx8J1PcFRDYGKYzxwWDc

Excerpt from "Listening for a Change", by Deborah Alexis:

"I am not a follower of Christ first, or black first, or woman first; these are all things that I am simultaneously. I cannot be in alliance with people who do not acknowledge all of me. My multiple identities are constantly informing each other. BYU is not yet my dream school, but I would like it to be. There are some promising changes, including some 
attempts to increase the admissions of students of color. Yet retention of students of color is just as vital. And I would say that the same goes for the larger Church. I want people of color who attend this school, and who join the Church, to feel empowered, valued, and supported. I do not want people of color to have to carry this load alone. It’s disappointing to watch people lose interest or roll their eyes when I mention these issues in class and during Church discussions. It starkly reminds me that I am alone when it comes to this. I am expected to ally myself with BYU and the Church, to demonstrate my unfailing commitment to them while there are few who believe they have any responsibility to mourn with me, to take on the burden of societal and religious racism I disproportionately carry as a woman of color."

Edited January 21, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not seeing much attempt at understanding themselves by those putting up these quotes time and time again.  More often they are acting as if they understand others' hearts and intents and therefore have the right to judge others without any examination of what similar behaviours and views they might have against others.

There is a difference between using history to explore the human experience and to try to put ourselves with humility in others' situations and using history to stand on a pedestal, certain in our judgment, and condemn others for failing your standards.

Well I cannot speak for others who have repeated them. Ignoring their existence is not the answer, though.

I think the church should recall the manuals and do better at total repudiation of past racist attitudes.

[hope_for_things]

More comments on this curriculum error yesterday from apostle Gary Stevenson at a Dr. Martin Luther King day speech for some kind of NAACP event.  They are quite strongly worded about denoucing any connection between a sign of a curse and skin color, which as mentioned earlier in the thread is pretty clearly taught in the BoM.  Also, he says in his comment quoted by the SLTrib that "they" are "asking members to disregard the paragraph in the printed manual".  Well, how are the going to do this?  Should we expect an announcement to be read over the pulpit about the manual?  Surely, they can't call statements quoted in the SLTrib as the mechanism for informing members on issues like this. 

Does anyone happen to know if the full text of Elder Stevenson's comments speech are available anywhere?  

Quote

The apostle acknowledged that the 2020 “Come, Follow Me” manual for use by everyone in the 16.3 million-member church for this year’s study of the Book of Mormon, “includes a paragraph with some outdated commentary on race.”

It was “mistakenly included in the printed version of the manual, which had been prepared for print nearly two years ago,” Stevenson said at the lunch. “When it was brought to the attention of church leaders late last year, they directed it be immediately removed in our annual online manual, which is used by the great majority of our members."

The church’s top officials also “have directed that any future printed manuals will reflect this change,” he said. “We are asking members to disregard the paragraph in the printed manual.”
Stevenson said he was “deeply saddened and hurt by this error, and for any pain that it may have caused our members or others.”

The church "condemn(s) all racism past and present in any form,” the apostle said, “and we disavow any theory that advances that black skin or dark skin is the sign of a curse.”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/01/21/lds-church-naacp-becoming/

Edited January 21, 2020 by hope_for_things

[hope_for_things]

Just found another article on the same speech.  

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/1/20/21069626/naacp-huntsman-foundation-rosie-rivera-elder-stevenson-common-ground

Quote

Elder Stevenson preceded his remarks by expressing regret that the church’s 2020 “Come, Follow Me” gospel study manual includes an old statement that dark skin in the Book of Mormon was the sign of a curse.

Elder Stevenson disavowed that statement.

“One of our recent church manuals includes a paragraph with some outdated commentary about race,” he said. “It was mistakenly included in the printed version of the manual, which had been prepared for print nearly two years ago. When it was brought to the attention of church leaders late last year, they directed that it be immediately removed in our annual online manual, which is used by the great majority of our members. We have also directed that any future printed manuals will reflect this change.

“We’re asking our members to disregard the paragraph in the printed manual,” he added. “Now I’m deeply saddened and hurt by this error and for any pain that it may have caused our members and for others. I would just like to reiterate our position as a church is clear. We do condemn all racism, past and present, in any form, and we disavow any theory advanced that black or dark skin is a sign of a curse. We are brothers and sisters, and I consider you friends. I love and appreciate you,” he said, drawing applause from those gathered.

Jerri Harwell, associate professor of English at Salt Lake Community College, said Elder Stevenson’s statement was timely, saying the manual was hurtful.

“This was very fortuitous timing,” she said. “I am so glad the Brethren addressed this through a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. I hope that message gets out to 16.5 million members. I hope they follow up with it.”

I find it encouraging to see strong statements like this, but lets be honest.  Its not just "theories" by leaders of the modern church that we have to grapple with, its scripture in the BoM.  If we're going to "disavow" these theories, we either need to edit the BoM text (this has its own possible negative ramifications), or we need to explain how the characters in the BoM must have been prejudiced and influenced by their culture and that skin color is not connected to any kind of disfavor or sign or curse or however you want to say it.  Essentially, don't throw God under the bus, its human error, not God.   

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well I cannot speak for others who have repeated them. Ignoring their existence is not the answer, though.

I think the church should recall the manuals and do better at total repudiation of past racist attitudes.

They absolutely should have recalled those manuals.

Ignoring and splashing the most humiliating comments you can come up so members of that group "won't forget them" is vile, however. Especially when it is a l w a y s the same quotes that should be considered common knowledge by now. What excuse is there for not giving a link rather than two pages of villifying a race that you don't belong to? What is next? Monthly pictures of the torture so descendants will never forget the Civil Rights brutality? Are you one of those who denounces everyone's sins in your sacrament meeting talk to make sure they can never forget? That's good for people, right? Remember how people used to opine about the evils of abortion while there were women sitting in the audience who had had one? 

Here is how I decide who is racist. There are alternatives to the BOM readings. The best being to treat it as what it claims to be, an ancient text. At that point it becomes close to stupidly racist to insist this is about skin color. Sure, it was interpreted that way, But that just makes those people the racists who have no support or standing in doing it. So let's see what happens when you treat the BOM as an ancient text. Let's do some criticism, you know, like scholars do. If you want to understand word meaning, look for other instances.

Quote

Alma 1:30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

Quote

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Recognize this? Here is old Alma putting it in black and white for the racists who want to make sure that blacks never, ever, ever, will be able to see themselves as beloved and respected humans (and if they do, why, shove some ugly quotes in their faces!)

Probably the most misued verse in the BOM is  "he denieth none that come unto him, black and white,". Because Alma told us twice what black and white means: wicked and righteous/out of the church/in the church. So we can use that. Or we can be racist and make it all about skin color, exactly what enlightened folk claim the BOM did. 

[juliann]

24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I find it encouraging to see strong statements like this, but lets be honest.  Its not just "theories" by leaders of the modern church that we have to grapple with, its scripture in the BoM.  If we're going to "disavow" these theories, we either need to edit the BoM text (this has its own possible negative ramifications), or we need to explain how the characters in the BoM must have been prejudiced and influenced by their culture and that skin color is not connected to any kind of disfavor or sign or curse or however you want to say it.  Essentially, don't throw God under the bus, its human error, not God.   

Thanks for that Stevenson quote!!

But...see above. We don't need to edit the BOM. We need to insist that people stop giving them a racist reading. We need to edit people's racism. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by juliann