Jump to content

Apostasy is worse than murder


Calm

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, it seems that apostasy is clearly considered most grave according to Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball, and Brigham Young, to start. Apostasy seemed to face harsher criticisms than murder.

One might have a different opinion on it, sure, but it is understandably a reasonable conclusion drawn from authoritative priesthood of the church.

No, it's not a reasonable conclusion.  It is a conclusion necessarily borne of ignorance and distortion.

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 4
Link to post
44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No doubt, once you leave, you get the feeling that many members do think you've done worse than murder.  I grant, not all, but some.

So you grant not all but some. What proportion of the membership would you define as “some” that believe this? 50-75%? 25-50%? 15-25%? 10-15%? 5-10%? 2-5%? 1%? <1%? I’m curious if you genuinely believe that people believe that, or if implying that membership thinks that can be hidden under the vaguery of “some” to suggest more than one, but be sufficiently unclear to open up the interpretation of possibly large quantities.

Link to post
1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

No doubt, once you leave, you get the feeling that many members do think you've done worse than murder.  I grant, not all, but some.

How do you know this isn't just projection?  You and others who have left imagining it? Do you have any evidence anyone actually thought that way?  As in they told you?

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1
Link to post
On 12/21/2019 at 2:36 PM, Calm said:

Apostasy, former member Sam Young explains, "is the worst possible sin you can commit. Apostasy is considered worse than murder."

The only thing I can think of where he got this idea was from some 19th century beliefs relating to the concept of  "blood atonement" for apostates, which some say was a punishment of death for any form of apostasy, which some believed was the unforgivable sin and therefore worse than murder. 
However A First Presidency statement reads: 

"Notwithstanding all the stories told about the killing of apostates, no case of this kind has ever occurred, and of course has never been established against the Church we represent. Hundreds of seceders from the Church have continuously resided and now live in this territory, many of whom have amassed considerable wealth, though bitterly opposed to the Mormon faith and people. Even those who made it their business to fabricate the vilest falsehoods, and to render them plausible by culling isolated passages from old sermons without the explanatory context, and have suffered no opportunity to escape them of vilifying and blackening the characters of the people, have remained among those whom they have thus persistently calumniated until the present day, without receiving the slightest personal injury.

We denounce as entirely untrue the allegation which has been made, that our Church favors or believes in the killing of persons who leave the Church or apostatize from its doctrines. We would view a punishment of this character for such an act with the utmost horror; it is abhorrent to us and is in direct opposition to the fundamental principles of our creed"  (Official Declaration, 12 December 1889, signed by the First Presidency (Wilford Woodruff, George Q. Cannon, and Joseph F. Smith)

Link to post
13 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you know this isn't just projection?  You and others who have left imagining it? Do you have any evidence anyone actually thought that way?  As in they told you?

I think is strange that any of you are denying it. Of course it's been taught that denying the Holy Ghost is apostasy and that it is worse than any other sin.

Link to post
18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think is strange that any of you are denying it. Of course it's been taught that denying the Holy Ghost is apostasy and that it is worse than any other sin.

But I don't assume people have left the Church because they are denying the Holy Ghost while knowing it speaks the truth.

Link to post

I've been in the Church since 2008.  I have never heard it taught that apostasy per se is worse than murder.  I have read about the plan of salvation where it's said that those few in number who deny the Holy Ghost are likely to be sons of perdition and in outer darkness and i suppose that that is one way to be apostate.   But that's the only thing.  I've taught the plan of salvation and had speculative discussions and always have said that almost everyone will inherit one of the kingdoms. I've never said apostasy is worse than murder.  I've never said being a son of perdition is apostasy.  I've never heard anyone else say it.  Of course some of the older ones may believe that apostasy is worse than murder.  Some may have had that taught them as not all teachers are accurate.  I can't speak for anyone else or before 2008. I guess I could ask around.  But I don't think it's a belief of the Church and something that would be taught by anyone accurately teaching doctrine. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
12 minutes ago, Calm said:
31 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think is strange that any of you are denying it. Of course it's been taught that denying the Holy Ghost is apostasy and that it is worse than any other sin.

But I don't assume people have left the Church because they are denying the Holy Ghost while knowing it speaks the truth.

Referring to the OP, Sam Young did not specify what kind of Apostasy he was referring to. He made it sound like any form of apostasy is worse than murder.

  • Like 2
Link to post
20 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I think it’s strange that you and others refuse to acknowledge the nuance associated with this topic.

The gentleman who made the original statement used the word apostasy.  Using the general definition and understanding of the word, he made a false statement.  I won’t opine on his intent.

The same applies to your statement regarding “denying the Holy Ghost.”  The majority of the world”s population denies the Holy Ghost, yet I don’t think you believe Church leaders have taught that in doing so they all have done something “worse than any other sin.”

I think on some level you understand that to sin against the Holy Ghost one must have a level of knowledge regarding, and experiences with, the Holy Ghost that few obtain in this life.  So the subset of God”s children capable of a sin against the Holy Ghost is a tiny, tiny fraction of the world’s population.  That”s the nuance.

So to equate a sin against the Holy Ghost, which the vast majority of the world (and Church membership) are incapable of, with the term apostasy,  which any believer of any faith is capable of, is clumsy at best, and to those who understand the concept of sinning against the Holy Ghost, fundamentally misleading.

Well I am pretty sure that I would be placed in that category of denying the Holy Ghost, by virtue of denying the authority of the church, of Joseph Smith, and modern-day LDS prophets, as one who made covenants in the temple (assuming of course that I am not considered ineligible as a woman.) 

I understand the nuance being attempted here and I do appreciate it and I think it is a good nuance, and I think it is more in the character of a loving God. Indeed as I've said it was a nuance I myself gained after my own faithful wrestle years ago. I do not believe a loving God would condemn those who deny the authority of the First Presidency. However, this is something prophets have taught. 

Link to post
6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well I am pretty sure that I would be placed in that category of denying the Holy Ghost, by virtue of denying the authority of the church, of Joseph Smith, and modern-day LDS prophets, as one who made covenants in the temple (assuming of course that I am not considered ineligible as a woman.) 

I understand the nuance being attempted here and I do appreciate it and I think it is a good nuance, and I think it is more in the character of a loving God. Indeed as I've said it was a nuance I myself gained after my own faithful wrestle years ago. I do not believe a loving God would condemn those who deny the authority of the First Presidency. However, this is something prophets have taught. 

Not my decision to make, but I certainly wouldn’t put you in that category.  You speak of God and ascribe to Him a loving nature.  You “wrestle” to try to understand Deity and the best path for you in this life.  

In describing you, I describe myself and how I perceive many others on this board.  Follow sojourners.  

Godspeed to us all.

  • Like 2
Link to post
40 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well I am pretty sure that I would be placed in that category of denying the Holy Ghost, by virtue of denying the authority of the church, of Joseph Smith, and modern-day LDS prophets, as one who made covenants in the temple (assuming of course that I am not considered ineligible as a woman.)

I would never describe you as such.  It is, for one thing, impossible,e for me to know what the Holy Ghosr ever told you, if anything, and more importantly, what he might be telling you now.

Quote

However, this is something prophets have taught. 

CFR please as I understand it to be more complicated than that.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 2
Link to post
8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Not my decision to make, but I certainly wouldn’t put you in that category.  You speak of God and ascribe to Him a loving nature.  You “wrestle” to try to understand Deity and the best path for you in this life.  

In describing you, I describe myself and how I perceive many others on this board.  Follow sojourners.  

Godspeed to us all.

Yet, that is not the standard set by the church. What would President Oaks be called--while still believing in principles and a belief in the goodness of God--if he renounced the priesthood and authority of President Nelson? 

Apostasy in the church is very much associated with loyalty to the leadership.

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I would never describe you as such.  It is, for one thing, impossible,e for me to know what the Holy Ghosr ever told you, if anything, and more importantly, what he might be telling you now.

CFR please as I understand it to be more complicated than that.

 

Quote

 

Teachings of Joseph Smith

Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”5

Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”6

Wilford Woodruff, while serving in the Quorum of the Twelve, said: “Brother Joseph used to counsel us in this wise: ‘The moment you permit yourselves to lay aside any duty that God calls you to perform, to gratify your own desires; the moment you permit yourselves to become careless, you lay a foundation for apostasy. Be careful; understand you are called to a work, and when God requires you to do that work do it.’ Another thing he said: ‘In all your trials, tribulations and sickness, in all your sufferings, even unto death, be careful you don’t betray God, be careful you don’t betray the priesthood, be careful you don’t apostatize.’”7

...

He then remarked that any man, any elder in this Church and kingdom, who pursued a course whereby he would ignore or, in other words, refuse to obey any known law or commandment or duty—whenever a man did this, neglected any duty God required at his hand in attending meetings, filling missions, or obeying counsel, he laid a foundation to lead him to apostasy and this was the reason those men had fallen. They had misused the priesthood sealed upon their heads. They had neglected to magnify their calling as apostles, as elders. They had used that priesthood to attempt to build themselves up and to perform some other work besides the building up of the kingdom of God.”8

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=eng

 

 

Link to post
8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Apostasy in the church is very much associated with loyalty to the leadership.

As it should be.

The war in heaven was nothing more than a group of God's children refusing to follow his leadership. And it created devils.

Obedience is the first law of heaven.

Link to post
10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As it should be.

The war in heaven was nothing more than a group of God's children refusing to follow his leadership. And it created devils.

Obedience is the first law of heaven.

More to my point.

  • Like 1
Link to post

Someone elsewhere recently posted this lesson:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-stories/chapter-26-the-three-kingdoms-of-heaven-16-february-1832?lang=eng

"The people who will be with Satan learned about Jesus and His gospel while they were on earth. The Holy Ghost testified to them about Jesus Christ. They knew that He lived and that He died for us."

Image


"But then these people did very bad things. They denied the truth and defied God’s power. They denied the Holy Ghost. They said they did not believe in Jesus anymore. These people will suffer forever."

 

It says they did "very bad things" without specifying, only specifying the apostasy. Clearly this is meant to show apostasy as being the very worse, especially given their punishment.

Presumably this lesson is intended for children.

Link to post
1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

It says they did "very bad things" without specifying, only specifying the apostasy. Clearly this is meant to show apostasy as being the very worse, especially given their punishment.

Presumably this lesson is intended for children.

Did you purposely leave out this descriptive picture describing "very bad things"?

image.png.5f8b42c984c3df6fd1830e5fd5f74aa9.png

It does have a scriptural reference:

Quote

 

D&C 76

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

 

How do you describe denying the Holy Spirit and "Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" to children?  Of course it is going to be simplistic.  But you know better than to interpret it the way you are, don't you?   

There are people much higher up in the Church than Sam Young, even original witnesses to the Book of Mormon, who apostatized and were forgiven and allowed back into the Church.  Not even they had experienced enough or done enough to deny the Holy Ghost!  I think Sam Young understood this history and is intentionally deceiving. I think other's, like yourself, who use this children's lesson to prove that we teach that general apostasy is akin to denying the Holy Ghost are only deceiving themselves.  Why don't you use the scriptures and look at our history of forgiving apostate?   The sons of perdition won't be forgiven in this life. 

Edited by pogi
  • Like 1
Link to post
18 hours ago, JAHS said:

Part of the quotation from Joseph Smith is missing:
"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.
He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open;
he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "
(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

This implies that the person has had an obvious vision of God, Jesus , or something similar and then deny it ever happened.  Not something figurative.  This is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Such people are the sons of perdition and are very small in number. This is not the run of the mill apostasy that thousand of people have committed. 
 

 

That's fine if you take it that way.  I'd guess those who don't and actually see denying the Holy Ghost as a form of apostasy consider a witness from God is as good as seeing Him with their eyes.  THat's something heavily discussed in the Church, or at least used to be.  It's understandable that someone interprets apostasy as denying the HG.  

Link to post
18 hours ago, smac97 said:

The "big deal" is bad faith.  By Sam Young.  About us.

Equating leaving the Church with the-sin-worse-than-death-that-merits-banishment-to-Outer-Darkness is bad faith.  Again, see here:

Thanks,

-Smac

I've already responded to your argument, smac, at least for the most part.  I"m not sure why you must be so cynical on this.  I don't know much about Sam Young at all, but I"m not sure his intentions really matter here.  It is true, without question, many in the Church, have, at various times and in various ways, been able to interpret the concept of denying the HG as being apostasy.  

Link to post
18 hours ago, Judd said:

So you grant not all but some. What proportion of the membership would you define as “some” that believe this? 50-75%? 25-50%? 15-25%? 10-15%? 5-10%? 2-5%? 1%? <1%? I’m curious if you genuinely believe that people believe that, or if implying that membership thinks that can be hidden under the vaguery of “some” to suggest more than one, but be sufficiently unclear to open up the interpretation of possibly large quantities.

Even if none believe it, it doesn't matter.  It could be true that Sam sincerely thought it, believed it or interpreted it that way.  But as we've seen on this thread, members have interpreted denying the HG as a form of apostasy, at the very least.  IT's not a stretch to think it is the ultimate form of apostasy in some minds.  

Link to post
29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

That's fine if you take it that way.  I'd guess those who don't and actually see denying the Holy Ghost as a form of apostasy consider a witness from God is as good as seeing Him with their eyes.  THat's something heavily discussed in the Church, or at least used to be.  It's understandable that someone interprets apostasy as denying the HG.  

Denying the Holy Ghost is apostasy, but their are lesser grades of apostasy that should not be considered worse than murder. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yet, that is not the standard set by the church. What would President Oaks be called--while still believing in principles and a belief in the goodness of God--if he renounced the priesthood and authority of President Nelson? 

Apostasy in the church is very much associated with loyalty to the leadership

My comment wasn’t referencing the broad spectrum of apostasy.  You said your actions would cause some to put you in the category of having committed a sin against the Holy Ghost.  My comment was to say that I wouldn’t put you in that category.

Nor would I have any reason to put President Oaks in that category based on your hypothetical.

As others have pointed out, history (and our modern day) is full of examples of Saints who have renounced leaders, including the Prophet and later reconciled.

Again, I think you’re missing the nuance.  As are many on this thread...lots of talking past each other. I will move on.  Best regards.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...