whistleblower on Church finances

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So you are saying their alleged profit motive probably isn't the driving factor here? 

With a name like Letter to an IRS Director, it seems to have come from a different pool of motivation at least at first imo. 

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

The term "whistleblower" is indeed intended to describe someone who exposes secretive information or activity that is deemed illegal, unethical, etc. The presumption is that a true whistleblower is someone who has witnessed something wrong happening within an organization and wants to pass that information on to others in the hopes of exposing the wrongdoing.

This is why the Nielson brothers want to be portrayed as whistleblowers.

Because the other (very similar) category would be to refer to them as "leakers" instead. Unlike "whistleblowers," "leakers" are generally viewed more neutrally or negatively because their intentions are often found to be less...high-minded. And in this case, there seems to be some evidence that this may be the case. Here are the portions of the article which stand out to me on that front:

• "Nielsen [...] is seeking a reward from the IRS, which offers whistleblowers a cut of unpaid taxes that it recovers."
• "Nielsen’s complaint is sharply critical of church leaders for continuing to ask for tithes, even from members who are struggling financially, while the church sits on a fortune."
• "He suggests church leaders favor continuing to collect tithes to avoid “losing control over their members’ behavior” by releasing them from their financial obligations."
• "Nielsen told Ensign in a resignation letter dated Aug. 29 that his employment had become unworkable after his wife and children left the Mormon Church and asked him to follow them, according to a copy of the letter provided by Lars Nielsen."

A lot of that indicates to me someone who is more disgruntled / disaffected with the church and its policies, rather than someone who is genuinely concerned about any sort of ongoing illegal activities. 

Oh, and while everyone seems quick to see what they want to see, let's not forget that the number one potential for alleged wrongdoing has not been substantiated:

• "While accumulating this wealth, Ensign has not directly funded any religious, educational or charitable activities in 22 years, the complaint said. No documents are provided to support this claim [...]"

I tried to watch the hour+ long video but was just not able to bring myself to stick with it. Half of the "exhibits" aren't actually financial statements from the company, but spreadsheets put together by the guy's brother which, according to him, are invariably incomplete because only the top four officers in the company have access to the complete financials.

And, call me crazy, but I have a hard time listening to "a health-care consultant in Minnesota" walk through all the possible outcomes from an IRS audit. You know, because he's got tons of experience in that area. 

 

Thank you for this analysis! 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This is of course true. However, the whistle blower has documents from EPA which he has submitted to the IRS under penalty of perjury so...

The chances of prosecution for signing the Jurat on a tax form are very close to 0 (not 0, but very close).

The IRS changes Millions of tax returns every year, each one presumably lied when they signed the jurat on the tax return.  The IRS in 2018 only incarcerated 614 people for legal source tax evasion.  (probably a small amount of those were directly for lying on the jurat.)

[Amulek]

19 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said:

The Church has amassed 100B in assets without spending a nickle on religious activity. 

This is an allegation - not a statement of fact.

It may or may not be true, but at this point all we know is that this one guy is unaware of any outlays spent on religious activities. 

 

[provoman]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As an Inactive  I never regretted the tithing money I paid until last night. Now? I want to resign my membership. 

In the spirit of love, I ask that you not resign.  

For all we know the the IRS could totally exonerate the Church for the accusations made.

[topcougar]

14 minutes ago, Danzo said:

What law?

It is not a violation of the law for Ensign to create reserves. As large as the church is, these reserves would be enough to maintain all the buildings for a few years in a complete financial meltdown. 

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

With a name like Letter to an IRS Director, it seems to have come from a different pool of motivation at least at first imo. 

That's the brother, not the whistleblower, as I understand it.

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I think they allow 3 free articles for non-subscribers to view (or something like that). Cookies were a method of identification used and so clearing cookies can let you avoid that. It's like a fair ride where everybody gets 2 free rides but after that you have to pay. They track who comes in by stamping your hand. If you wash off the stamp and then come back in for a third ride, is that honest? I'm not so bothered by such moral complexities. The model isn't one I can support (perhaps even as an ethical imperative?). But this is a topic not really relevant to mormondialogue.org.

https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/02/25/exploring-alternative-funding-models-for-the-web/

Yeah, but there is no legal or even moral turpitude here. People do not generally get stamped to show they got free stuff; they are stamped to show they paid and can reenter. 

How to pay for journalism going forward is a valid and I would argue vital question but suggesting that clearing your browser is cheating the system is ridiculous. I did not sign an agreement with the newspaper and the idea that I should not clear my cookies regularly (which I would do in any case) because it is dishonest is silly.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

When, I was super poor, literally feeding my family eggs and tuna, I resented my tithing. My spouse and I prayed and at that time switched, from paying net to gross tithing. We did not want to resent the money we gave the Lord. 

We saw miracles. Why would you deprive the poor the blessings that come from tithing? I’ve seen this in my ward. We have some struggling families and as they’ve payed their tithing, other miracles have happened in their lives. Those who once were dependent on church assistance, are no longer. Paying tithing helps people.

Did you call struggling to make ends meet a miracle?  Or are you saying that people who don't pay tithing do not have the same types of events happen as you and your family have had, and that struggling families have had? 

But to be clear, I'm not sure where you're coming from.  Do you think I'm saying people shouldn't sacrifice for a greater cause?  I am not.  I'm just not sure the Church is the greater cause, but to each his own.

[Amulek]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The chances of prosecution for signing the Jurat on a tax form are very close to 0 (not 0, but very close).

Seriously, like a 1,000 times THIS!

Anyone fixated with the "under penalty of perjury" line and thinks it means anything has tipped their hand that they know absolutely nothing about tax.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Amulek

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The chances of prosecution for signing the Jurat on a tax form are very close to 0 (not 0, but very close).

The IRS changes Millions of tax returns every year, each one presumably lied when they signed the jurat on the tax return.  The IRS in 2018 only incarcerated 614 people for legal source tax evasion.  (probably a small amount of those were directly for lying on the jurat.)

What is signing the Jurat please? (Not looking it up because I am probably not the only one wondering)

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The chances of prosecution for signing the Jurat on a tax form are very close to 0 (not 0, but very close).

The IRS changes Millions of tax returns every year, each one presumably lied when they signed the jurat on the tax return.  The IRS in 2018 only incarcerated 614 people for legal source tax evasion.  (probably a small amount of those were directly for lying on the jurat.)

I’m saying if the whistleblower is fraudulently creating documents, he is on the hook for perjury. 

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, topcougar said:

It is not a violation of the law for Ensign to create reserves. As large as the church is, these reserves would be enough to maintain all the buildings for a few years in a complete financial meltdown. 

It's always polite to let people know which law they are breaking when they accuse someone of breaking the law. Even the traffic cops site the law when they give a ticket. I find it compelling that they do not site any laws. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

This is an allegation - not a statement of fact.

It may or may not be true, but at this point all we know is that this one guy is unaware of any outlays spent on religious activities. 

 

And it is for that particular company alone which is only part of the Church’s financial system. It is possible that the church spent three billion on religious activity after receiving four in tithing and took the one billion leftover and invested that in Ensign, correct?  If Ensign was created specifically to handle the leftovers, then it makes sense no outlays would be seen except in significant need. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Calm

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, the donations belong to God, not the Church.  The LDS Church as an institution does manage the funds.  It does not "need" the funds, and it does not "need" to grow them exponentially.  The only real question is what does God want done with His funds?

That is not the only real question, thus the letter.  Why, if true, should the rest of us carry the burden the church puts on us for not being treated, in a legal sense, as a large conglomerate corporation?  If the Church paid it's fair share of taxes this wouldn't be much of an issue at all, but this letter gives us reason o be skeptical.

Edited December 17, 2019 by stemelbow

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If it really costs the church 6 billon a year to run things, then having 16 years worth of savings that unreasonable?

It is when you want the Church to fail tomorrow

[Amulek]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's the brother, not the whistleblower, as I understand it.

The brother was engaged by the whistleblower to write the expose', so we've got sort of an Aaron and Moses thing going on here. 

 

[Avatar4321]

56 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church

Posted in 2018:

No, not misleading at all...

How is a statement from 1985 relevant?

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is signing the Jurat please? (Not looking it up because I am probably not the only one wondering)

Its that thing you sign when you sign the tax return (And some other tax forms). It says that you are telling the truth and that you could (but probably won't) be charged with perjury if you aren't telling the truth. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's the brother, not the whistleblower, as I understand it.

I got the impression it was a team effort. 

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m saying if the whistleblower is fraudulently creating documents, he is on the hook for perjury. 

but probably won't be. Even if he made everything up. The IRS is very selective on who they prosecute. 

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Did you call struggling to make ends meet a miracle?  Or are you saying that people who don't pay tithing do not have the same types of events happen as you and your family have had, and that struggling families have had? 

But to be clear, I'm not sure where you're coming from.  Do you think I'm saying people shouldn't sacrifice for a greater cause?  I am not.  I'm just not sure the Church is the greater cause, but to each his own.

It’s a purely anecdotal observation. I do realize others may not have the same experience but imo, paying tithing helps people and blesses lives in many different ways. Even If true, the allegations in this report do not change my opinion. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

Its that thing you sign when you sign the tax return (And some other tax forms). It says that you are telling the truth and that you could (but probably won't) be charged with perjury if you aren't telling the truth. 

I was pretty sure that was it, but was thinking it didn’t really merit such a fancy name. Should have known better.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

How is a statement from 1985 relevant?

When used to support a discussion/article in 2018, it is relevant imo.  Similar to appealing to scripture to support paying tithing, for example.

However, there is a very good chance that the person writing the article was not aware of the current financial status and it was not caught because quotes from prophets aren’t usually read in terms of ‘are they accurate’ I am guessing by those who proof the drafts. There may have been only one very busy person aware of both situations (Ensign money investment and magazine article) and he may have skimmed rather than fact checked it, assuming someone else had done that part (this is assuming there is an apostle who gives the final proofing of church publications and knows of the financial status of Ensign...which may or may not be a fair assumption as I am basing it on vague memories of how oversight is talked about, it may be two different apostles who both report to the First Presidency, but would not include a detail like ‘and these are the quotes being used in this issue’.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

In the spirit of love, I ask that you not resign.  

For all we know the the IRS could totally exonerate the Church for the accusations made.

Oh, I personally doubt the church did anything illegal. The very fact of the church having 100 billion dollars (not to mention 20 billion in land investments and honestly who knows what other financial reserves its hiding) and not using it to do good in the world is immoral to me. The fact that this was hid from me as a member is appalling. I no longer contribute time or money to the church, it’s time to stop contributing my name. 
 

Again the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation with half the endowment gives 2.5 billion net grants each year (total of 5 billion given out while they receive 2.5 in donations). The church on the other hand gives .04 billion in humanitarian assistance each year.