Backup Sources

[smac97]

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Quote

It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot.  Offend.  Provoke.

To Smac  "It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot.  Offend.  Provoke."   Well maybe or just things that come to mind.  Rather than discuss all the details I'll say a thing or two. 

Hmm.  You are only confirming my perception.

If you have something thoughtful to say (or ask), have at it.  If all you've got is off-the-cuff, stream-of-consciousness "things that come to mind" (that also happen to appear calculated to offend and provoke), and if you are declining to have a substantive discussion about our faith ("rather than discuss all the details..."), then I'm not sure this will be a fruitful discussion.

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I have siblings that occasionally try get me to read the BofM, or tell me that I have to get ready and go to the temple or I'll lose my wife and kids or what ever that entails.

Okay.

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I thought I'd suggest my thoughts to my siblings but decided this board would be more appropriate.  I have a wife and kids on the JW side who try to tell me a similar story about gaining everlasting life.  I care for neither faiths but it always seemed the JWs had a stronger base if someone believed the bible, I don't. 

Do you have any thoughts beyond merely disparaging what we believe?

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I felt that the translation of the papyrus in about 1967 was the downfall of any faith I had in the church.

Well, we could have a discussion about that, if you like.

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I read everything I could on the matter.  Hugh Nibley never came up with a satisfactory explanation.  And if someone doesn't know what I'm writing about then look up the history of the PofGP history.

I am familiar with what you are writing about.  If you want to have a discussion, please proceed with laying out your thoughts, evidence, argument, etc. 

If all you've got is taunting and insults, I'll pass.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

My thoughts originally of this thread is that most everything came from Joseph Smith, one man. 

I don't think Joseph Smith could have written the text of the Book of Mormon.

We could discuss that, if you like.

13 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Most of the Standard Works came from one man Joseph Smith.  That can be argued endlessly but the church doctrine depends mainly on one man. 

That's a decent point to make.

13 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

One man who tried to introduce polygamy and married 14 - 15 year old and other men's wife.

Meh.  You're just acting as a provocateur.  

If you want to have a substantive discussion, please pick a topic and let's have at it.  If all you've got is barbs and insults, then I'll bow out and leave you to it.

-Smac

[rodheadlee]

18 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

To Smac  "It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot.  Offend.  Provoke."   Well maybe or just things that come to mind.  Rather than discuss all the details I'll say a thing or two.  I have siblings that occasionally try get me to read the BofM, or tell me that I have to get ready and go to the temple or I'll lose my wife and kids or what ever that entails.  I thought I'd suggest my thoughts to my siblings but decided this board would be more appropriate.  I have a wife and kids on the JW side who try to tell me a similar story about gaining everlasting life.  I care for neither faiths but it always seemed the JWs had a stronger base if someone believed the bible, I don't.  I felt that the translation of the papyrus in about 1967 was the downfall of any faith I had in the church.  I read everything I could on the matter.  Hugh Nibley never came up with a satisfactory explanation.  And if someone doesn't know what I'm writing about then look up the history of the PofGP history.

Just to be clear you have not read the book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price? I don't see how you could have an opinion if you haven't read them.

[Sanpitch]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Well, we could have a discussion about that, if you like.

I am familiar with what you are writing about.  If you want to have a discussion, please proceed with laying out your thoughts, evidence, argument, etc. 

If all you've got is taunting and insults, I'll pass.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm going to pass on the detailed discussions.  The BofA and papyrus  discussions could involve a small book, but I would like to read what you have to say about it in defense of the book.  I am curious, maybe you can save it in my mind.  Edited to add, I'm thinking mainly of the papyrus not matching what Joseph Smith said it did. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Sanpitch
addition

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Just to be clear you have not read the book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price? I don't see how you could have an opinion if you haven't read them.

As the Catholic sociologist Thomas O’Dea observed in 1957, “the Book of Mormon has not been universally considered by its critics as one of those books that must be read in order to have an opinion of it.”

😁

Thanks,

-Smac

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/16/2019 at 6:39 PM, Sanpitch said:

No I don't think you're idiots, if you are, most of my relatives, sibling and all are idiots.  Of course I think JWs are on the verge of idiots but don't tell anybody I said that.

I hope I'm not the idiot.

To some extent, we are all idiots.

Studying how the Bible was mistranslated, the prophetic books excluded from the Bible (apocrypha), pseudipigrapha, is rare and, as an idiot, I haven't done it that much.

Understanding the portions of truth that are in all religions (Buddhist reincarnation as a tweaked/apostatized version of eternal progression; Deities of both genders (Hinduism), zoroastrianism's strong resemblance on perhaps Daniel the prophet's teachings, etc) is not really something any of us are mentally prepared to process, myself included.

I think that's why we depend so strongly on the Holy Ghost, or try to anyway.

Understanding transcendnet Beings and principles is an illusive feat but we try, with General Conference to help us as well as the scriptures but still we stumble.

Understanding the original languages of the books in the Bible is something I have no idea how to do other than studying Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and that's not going to happen, if I'm honest.

Example: Isaiah 53:10 has never made much sense to me. Which part is God the Father and which part is the Messiah?

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Edited December 18, 2019 by nuclearfuels

[Sanpitch]

30 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Just to be clear you have not read the book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price? I don't see how you could have an opinion if you haven't read them.

My answer is have you ever read the Quran, do you have an opinion of it.  How can put all your faith in your church and disbelief the Quran.  They both can't be true.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

I'm going to pass on the detailed discussions.  The BofA and papyrus  discussions could involve a small book, but I would like to read what you have to say about it in defense of the book.  I am curious, maybe you can save it in my mind.  Edited to add, I'm thinking mainly of the papyrus not matching what Joseph Smith said it did. 

Questions:

1. what was the total length of the papyri?
2. how much of the rolls were destroyed in the Chicago Fire?
3. what were dimensions of the sheet of paper on which Emma Smith (presumably) glued pieces and fragments?
4. would the recovered papyrus pieces on the sheet represent less than 3% of the total length? (1967 some papyri fragments were found in the Metropolitan Museum of Fine Arts in New York City)
5. do you expect every piece to be accounted for and included into the translated Book of Abraham?
6. what if there were pieces NOT relevant to the works of Abraham and God caused Joseph to ignore those?
7. do you make major life decisions based on one tiny little factoid?
8. are you willing to study more of the details and facts to hopefully come up with a better understanding of the BIG picture?

Edited December 18, 2019 by longview

[Sanpitch]

33 minutes ago, longview said:

Questions:

1. what was the total length of the papyri?
2. how much of the rolls were destroyed in the Chicago Fire?
3. what were dimensions of the sheet of paper on which Emma Smith (presumably) glued pieces and fragments?
4. would the recovered papyrus pieces on the sheet represent less than 3% of the total length? (1967 some papyri fragments were found in the Metropolitan Museum of Fine Arts in New York City)
5. do you expect every piece to be accounted for and included into the translated Book of Abraham?
6. what if there were pieces NOT relevant to the works of Abraham and God caused Joseph to ignore those?
7. do you make major life decisions based on one tiny little factoid?
8. are you willing to study more of the details and facts to hopefully come up with a better understanding of the BIG picture?

Let's stick to one important question, does Joseph Smith's description or writings of the book match at all what Egyptologists says is on the Papyrus?

[longview]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

2 hours ago, longview said:

Questions:

1. what was the total length of the papyri?
2. how much of the rolls were destroyed in the Chicago Fire?
3. what were dimensions of the sheet of paper on which Emma Smith (presumably) glued pieces and fragments?
4. would the recovered papyrus pieces on the sheet represent less than 3% of the total length? (1967 some papyri fragments were found in the Metropolitan Museum of Fine Arts in New York City)
5. do you expect every piece to be accounted for and included into the translated Book of Abraham?
6. what if there were pieces NOT relevant to the works of Abraham and God caused Joseph to ignore those?
7. do you make major life decisions based on one tiny little factoid?
8. are you willing to study more of the details and facts to hopefully come up with a better understanding of the BIG picture?

Let's stick to one important question, does Joseph Smith's description or writings of the book match at all what Egyptologists says is on the Papyrus?

You are evading the question.  More specifically, does the pasted sheet containing the fragments represent less than 3% of the papyrus rolls that Joseph purchased from Chandler?  (see points 4 and 5)  An important related question, must everything on the 80 feet of hieroglyphics papyrus rolls be translated?  (see points 5 and 6) You really need to answer on points 7 and 8 as well.

Keep in mind that the pasted sheet that Emma Smith used may be no larger than 8 by 11 paper (or roughly that size).

[Sanpitch]

1 hour ago, longview said:

You are evading the question.  More specifically, does the pasted sheet containing the fragments represent less than 3% of the papyrus rolls that Joseph purchased from Chandler?  (see points 4 and 5)  An important related question, must everything on the 80 feet of hieroglyphics papyrus rolls be translated?  (see points 5 and 6) You really need to answer on points 7 and 8 as well.

Keep in mind that the pasted sheet that Emma Smith used may be no larger than 8 by 11 paper (or roughly that size).

I'm evading the question because it's irreverent to me, there could be truck loads of other papyrus, what is important is what is on the ones in the possession of the church and which Smith used to translate.  And what he did have has no relation to his writings according to Egyptologists.  I'll anxiously wait for your answer to that.   

Edited to add:  The facsimiles  are on the fragments that Smith had with fragments missing.  Smith drew in what he thought was missing and which Egyptologists claim are entirely wrong.  The facsimiles are probably in your Pearl of Great Price, in the Book of Abraham.  Egyptologists have seen many of these drawing, they are in a common, "Book or the Dead"  or something about Breathing.  I don't remember exact details.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Sanpitch
Additional

[strappinglad]

Would you accept the teachings if God Himself or one of His Angels were to appear to you and vouch for their truthfulness ? Could you then provide a solid source for your conviction? 

Be careful now because there have been examples in the scriptures of people who saw and yet fell away. Did they have a sandy source? 

[Sanpitch]

14 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Would you accept the teachings if God Himself or one of His Angels were to appear to you and vouch for their truthfulness ? Could you then provide a solid source for your conviction? 

Be careful now because there have been examples in the scriptures of people who saw and yet fell away. Did they have a sandy source? 

I would have to ask for proof of who they are and who they represent.  Many gods have shown up over the centuries, I would want to get the right one.

Strappinglad says:  "Sometimes you have to make a decision in order to make a decision"  I think you don't have to make any decision, wait long enough and it makes it's self.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Sanpitch

[Sanpitch]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Hmm.  You are only confirming my perception.

If you have something thoughtful to say (or ask), have at it.  If all you've got is off-the-cuff, stream-of-consciousness "things that come to mind" (that also happen to appear calculated to offend and provoke), and if you are declining to have a substantive discussion about our faith ("rather than discuss all the details..."), then I'm not sure this will be a fruitful discussion.

Okay.

Do you have any thoughts beyond merely disparaging what we believe?

Well, we could have a discussion about that, if you like.

I am familiar with what you are writing about.  If you want to have a discussion, please proceed with laying out your thoughts, evidence, argument, etc. 

If all you've got is taunting and insults, I'll pass.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well Ok, why does the BofA papyrus translated by Smith not match what Egyptologists claim it says?  That has been by main obstacle for  many decades to believing the church. 

[champatsch]

On 12/17/2019 at 12:22 PM, smac97 said:

He authored most of the Doctrine & Covenants.

No, that's unlikely.

[2BizE]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:06 PM, Sanpitch said:

I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions.  Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith.  There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources.  The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit.  My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs.  What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims?  The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud.

But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud.

Well, you can show your wife pictures of the magic rock Joseph used to “translate” the BoM.  Surely, that will leave her speechless.

Edited December 19, 2019 by 2BizE
Grammar

[Sanpitch]

7 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Well, you can show your wife picture of the magic rock Joseph used to “translate” the BoM.  Surely, that will leave her speechless.

That may work, she likes rocks.  Especially magic rocks.

[DonBradley]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:06 PM, Sanpitch said:

I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions.  Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith.  There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources.  The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit.  My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs.  What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims?  The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud.

But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud.

The church also uses the Bible. There are revelations for which Oliver Cowdery was a co-revelator (e.g., D&C 20) and for which Sidney Rigdon was a co-revelator (e.g. D&C 76). The correctness of the Book of Mormon's translation was attested by the Three Witnesses, who heard the voice of God testify to them that it was translated correctly. And no member of the church is expected to believe the scriptures revealed through Joseph Smith based on his say-so, as most churches expect their members to believe what the Bible says simply because it says it. Rather, Latter-day Saints are asked to find out by revelation to themselves if these books are legitimate. That takes the burden of revelation ultimately off of Joseph Smith's shoulders and puts it on the shoulders of every single member of the church.

Don

 

 

 

[rodheadlee]

14 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

My answer is have you ever read the Quran, do you have an opinion of it.  How can put all your faith in your church and disbelief the Quran.  They both can't be true.

Yes I have but not all the way through. I have spiritual experiences that allow me to put all my faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that The Book of Mormon is true. I don't get the same experience with the Quran.

 

[Sanpitch]

7 hours ago, DonBradley said:

The church also uses the Bible. There are revelations for which Oliver Cowdery was a co-revelator (e.g., D&C 20) and for which Sidney Rigdon was a co-revelator (e.g. D&C 76). The correctness of the Book of Mormon's translation was attested by the Three Witnesses, who heard the voice of God testify to them that it was translated correctly. And no member of the church is expected to believe the scriptures revealed through Joseph Smith based on his say-so, as most churches expect their members to believe what the Bible says simply because it says it. Rather, Latter-day Saints are asked to find out by revelation to themselves if these books are legitimate. That takes the burden of revelation ultimately off of Joseph Smith's shoulders and puts it on the shoulders of every single member of the church.

Don

 

 

 

Good answer, Don.  Thank you.

[Sanpitch]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes I have but not all the way through. I have spiritual experiences that allow me to put all my faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that The Book of Mormon is true. I don't get the same experience with the Quran.

 

Makes sense,  but I'll bet very few have read it.  No I'm not pushing it, I know very little of it.

[mrmarklin]

On 12/16/2019 at 3:06 PM, Sanpitch said:

I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions.  Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith.  There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources.  The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit.  My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs.  What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims?  The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud.

But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud.

Nice troll.

Members with real testimonies have had their knowledge and beliefs backed by revelation. That is the rock. 

[Sanpitch]

The Quran being mentioned, I had a thought, not accusingly, more of a question.  I vaguely remember reading about the Quran that if reading the Quran you need to pray to know whether it is true or not.  Someone must know something about that.  For some reason there are billions of faithful Muslims on Earth who will give their life for their belief or Allah.  Why?   

Edited December 19, 2019 by Sanpitch

[Metis_LDS]

3 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

For some reason there are billions of faithful Muslims on Earth who will give their life for their belief or Allan.  Why? 

I do not fault your post. But please be careful with spelling when speaking about other religions.  I am SURE you did not mean to write "Allan".   But rather Allah.

[Sanpitch]

30 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I do not fault your post. But please be careful with spelling when speaking about other religions.  I am SURE you did not mean to write "Allan".   But rather Allah.

Fixed, thank you.