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JST Rev. 6: 14


CV75

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"And the heavens opened as a scroll is opened when it is rolled together..." I am noodling over this verse/metaphor (and continuing to Google): what opens up when a scroll is closed? I'm thinking the space around it, or that our comprehension is opened up after reading, but are there other explanations (assuming this was Joseph's final intended edit of this verse)? Thank you!

torah-scroll.jpg

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50 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

According to one commentary  the rolling up of a scroll signaled the end of a story or an event.

Thank you, as in "that wraps it up" or "we closed the book on that one."

The phrase Joseph changed was "And the heaven departed [he replaced it with "the heavens opened"] as a scroll when it is rolled together..." and I am wondering how the imagery of a closing scroll describes the opening of the heavens rather than their departure. There seems to be a physical as well as symbolic aspect to what he used for the translation.

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Interesting. When I read the part of the scroll being in the closed position (when it is rolled together), I see it as a description of the scroll prior to opening. In other words,  the heavens opened like a scroll is opened (being opened from closed position “rolled together” first.)

Edited by Kate
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5 minutes ago, Kate said:

Interesting. When I read the part of the scroll being in the closed position (when it is rolled together) as a description of the scroll prior to opening. In other words,  the heavens opened like a scroll is opened (being opened from closed position “rolled together” first.)

Are you saying that "rolled together" refers to the two poles ("eitz chaim") being rolled apart, or outwardly in opposite directions, with "together" meaning "at the same time"? And that "rolled together" does not mean the poles are rolled in the inward direction that closes the scroll? That makes a lot of sense.

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@Kate oops I see you edited your post while I was responding... at any rate, thank you! I can see that too, that "rolled together" refers to the closed position from which the poles are rolled apart (separate directions), describing the opening of the heavens.

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4 minutes ago, Kate said:

Thank you. You articulated that so much better than I could!

So far I've articulated 2 ideas but I think yours is the more accurate :) Thanks again.

Edited by CV75
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4 hours ago, CV75 said:

"And the heavens opened as a scroll is opened when it is rolled together..." I am noodling over this verse/metaphor (and continuing to Google): what opens up when a scroll is closed? I'm thinking the space around it, or that our comprehension is opened up after reading, but are there other explanations (assuming this was Joseph's final intended edit of this verse)? Thank you!

This quote below just elaborates on what has already been said, but also comments on the opening of the heavens portion.  This comes from Brigham Young University New Testament Commentary: The Revelation of John the Apostle, 2016 by Richard D. Draper and Michael D. Rhodes,  p. 272:

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6:14 the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together / the sky split like a scroll that is rolled up:  The imagery comes from Isaiah 34:4 and is not difficult to visualize.  Scrolls were normally stored in a rolled-up condition.  When they were opened to be read, if the reader let go of the scroll, it would quickly roll up on itself, revealing the table underneath it.  The JST changed the wording:  "And the heavens opened as a scroll is opened when it is rolled together."  That wording is confusing but seems to mean that the heavens opened as a scroll would after it had been initially closed.  Whatever the action, the idea is one of disclosure.  The verb ἀπεχωρίσθη (apechōrísthē), translated in the KJV as "departed," supports that idea because it literally means "to be split," which a scroll does when it is opened, thus revealing its text.  The context of the passage may, however, open another possibility.  The bottom line is that the sky as we know it will open up so that "the face of the Lord shall be unveiled" (D&C 88:95).

 

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Similar imagery but earth instead of heaven,  a scroll......the same apocalyptic events?

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Mormon 9: 1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ.
2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?
3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

 

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13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Similar imagery but earth instead of heaven,  a scroll......the same apocalyptic events?

Seems connected to me (the end of the earth as we know it with the opening of heaven)... thank you.

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On 12/15/2019 at 12:32 PM, CV75 said:

"And the heavens opened as a scroll is opened when it is rolled together..." I am noodling over this verse/metaphor (and continuing to Google): what opens up when a scroll is closed? I'm thinking the space around it, or that our comprehension is opened up after reading, but are there other explanations (assuming this was Joseph's final intended edit of this verse)? Thank you!........................

A couple of things need to be kept in mind: (1) both Joseph and Sidney Rigdon were making these revisions, and (2) this is a midrash on the Day of Yahweh in Isa 34:4 -- which has both a Greek and Hebrew text to consider.  Moreover, these are figurative rather than literal eschatological/cosmic symbols.

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16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A couple of things need to be kept in mind: (1) both Joseph and Sidney Rigdon were making these revisions, and (2) this is a midrash on the Day of Yahweh in Isa 34:4 -- which has both a Greek and Hebrew text to consider.  Moreover, these are figurative rather than literal eschatological/cosmic symbols.

Thank you I was noodling on both figurative and literal aspects :). I put this up in relation to the thread that referred to semantics "then and now" and the role of living prophets. Similarly, in another thread ( http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72477-thoughts-on-addressing-a-struggle-with-or-loss-of-faith/ ), the meaning of Revelations 3:16-17 is being discussed in terms of black/white, all/nothing thinking.

 

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