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I fear that many misunderstand the Prophet, concerning “refugees”.


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Just got an email of a letter by AZ Governor Ducey consenting to refugees coming to AZ!

These  are the governors (minus AZ) that haven't signed the consent yet.  Good to see most of the states have given their written consent.

Edited by Rain
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24 minutes ago, Rain said:

Keep in mind that unless they are at bus terminal that ICE dropped them off at (not likely to be an airport where ICE drops them) then they will only have a few minutes or hours to get some food etc.  before they need to take the next train or airplane. 

Yeah I know what that's like.  I don't understand why flight times aren't coordinated better.  Feels like I just barely have time to eat, sometimes.  And those free snacks on the airlines aren't very satisfying.  At least they are something, though, I guess.

 

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

If they are at the bus stations in Tuscon, Phoenix, El Paso or San Diego etc and have just been dropped off by ICE then they may have more time (unless they actually got reservations before being dropped off, though last winter and spring that would have been highly unlikely).  But even if they have no tickets yet, a lot of them have young children so any work done will need to be able to be done with the children alongside of them.  And so many are just exhausted. Last year there were so many coming at a time  to these cities near the border that it would have been extremely difficult to line up work on top of taking care of their needs.  

Yeah I'm figuring it's better to keep families together and have them work, together if they are able to work.  Otherwise some of them could take care of the ones that need to be taken care of like daycare service workers usually do that.  That counts as work,. too, of course.

And yes of course there should also be breaks for resting and for meals.  Maybe even nap times.  No need to make them work like dogs. Some could play some music and serve refreshments  Make it fun!  No good reason work can't be fun at the same time.

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

So your idea could be a good one, but until they arrive at their final destination after the bus or airplane, it may prove impractical.

 

 

Yea well we'd want it to work out.  The main objective would be to get something good accomplished and then reward those who work with at least the basic necessities they need to live life.   Did I mention showers and bathrooms yet?  Yeah they would need some of those too.

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8 hours ago, Ahab said:

You can add to it.  That program would just be the basic foundation and from there they could do more to get more.  Keep your ideas and just add to what I am saying. 

How much money do you pay for basic food, clothing and shelter each month?  How much money do you get paid each month?  Are you saying your expenses for your basic necessities exceed your income?

There would be more government money available to help those on that type of government work program because there would not need to be any money going toward labor in that program. 

Those who got paid with money in other labor situations would still be paying taxes and with those government work programs not using any money for labor that tax money could be used for other things other than those labor expenses. 

Instead of paying tens of millions of dollars in 1 year for a crew of 50 to build a road and supply the materials, tens of millions of dollars in just 1 year for 50 people to do that work, the government would pay only a small fraction of that to provide their food, clothing., shelter and tools to do their jobs.

Health care could be paid for because there would be no money going toward that labor.

Education could be paid for because there would be no money going toward that labor.

Home loans could be paid for or at least subsidized because there would be no money going toward that labor.

Etc.

You are too quick to find fault and give up.  Add to the ideas I offered if you can think of something better.

Just say that you want them paid less then. That is what you are saying in the end. You give them cheap food, cheap housing, cheap clothing, and maybe those tools but I doubt you are gifting those instead of giving them money so they can prioritize their own needs. And it costs only a fraction of what you would pay someone not in this heinous system. You are inching deeper and deeper into serfdom. There is no good way to improve it. At least serfs were justifiably originally trying to get military protection. You just want to pay people less for the same work. It won’t work. Who is going to volunteer for this program? The people who fill this economic niche right now are people who are victims of human trafficking/slavery or are in gulags or labor camps and you want more of it?

I cannot improve it. It is awful. The whole basis of the system denies social and economic freedom.

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7 hours ago, pogi said:

Run for office then Ahab.  Show us all how easy it is.  To make such a statement and not run for office would be a terrible disservice to humanity.  You are morally obligated to do so now. 

Please don’t encourage this. The world has gone insane and there is a statistically significant chance he could win.

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7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

That is an excellent summary of how things went for those immigrants.

The thing I worry about here in the UK is that the Muslim (here we go again) immigrants are doing much as you describe: living in enclaves, voting in blocs, and banding together for mutual support. And so on.  There are many who are integrating, too.  But there are worryingly many who don't seem to be.  I hope that the path that immigrants took in the US is repeated here among those from the Islamic world of the Middle East.  

 

Most of that failure to integrate those is first and second generation immigrants. Muslims are seen as not integrating because there were so few for so long so most are first and second generation. Give it time and a lack of discrimination and it will be okay....or at least as okay as everyone else in this wacky country/world.

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7 hours ago, Ahab said:

The problem with most solutions is the lack of money, or a limited supply of money.  My idea gets around that problem by avoiding money altogether, but only for those who choose that solution.

I think we can agree that the only people who would go for my idea would be the people who have basically nothing.  No food or clothing or shelter, except for what they can scrounge up somehow or what is given to them.

I"m proposing we give them food, clothing AND shelter and whatever tools they need to get some work done that we need or want to get done in this country.  Without this program they would have nothing or next to nothing.  I'm imagining a food service much like the cafeterias I enjoyed in the military. where they would be able to choose different options and eat as much of that as they wanted.  And the people who made the food could come from that program, for those who chose that job of preparing the food.  Some people like to do that, usually women, but men could do that too if they wanted.  All n a big tent that can be moved from place to place, with lots of food preparation equipment and tables to eat at.  Building or maintaining roads, or building houses or other kinds of buildings, transporting supplies and materials, or growing or harvesting crops, etc.

And, hey, maybe we would be able to afford to pay them a little bit every month.  When I was in the Air Force I didn't make much money but it went pretty far since I didn't have to pay for food, clothing, shelter or the tools I needed to do my work.

No, even they will not agree to this. No one wants to be treated and degraded like this. Not even the destitute homeless.

Your lack of money thing ignores that whoever is running this program still has to buy the food and clothing and shelter your program needs. There are no government warehouses filled with automatically replenishing food that you can tap for this.

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6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I have never heard that life should be fair or even that it was expected to be fair. Do you think that the world owes each individual an improved standard of living? Or do you think that each individual has the right to create their own standard of living? What does the world owe them? What does their own nation owe them? Why are their leaders in power? Is revolution in a nation an acceptable path to improve the nation's standard of living?

This guy acknowledges it is economicallyunfair but seems to want us to fix it. Probably some kind of crackpot:

D&C 38:
26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?
27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

See!

If Stargazer and I both say this it is definitely true because we rarely agree on much of anything.

We should be clear on the things we do agree on.  Such as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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15 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah I know what that's like.  I don't understand why flight times aren't coordinated better. 

They may be done better than they were last fall and spring.  Part of the problem was legally they could hold only so many and for so long so they had to drop them off before there was time to process them. 

I believe it is going better in Phoenix now, but some of that is because things really slowed during the summer and some because one of the large charities was able to do some things they couldn't do before.

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

Feels like I just barely have time to eat, sometimes.  And those free snacks on the airlines aren't very satisfying.  At least they are something, though, I guess.

 

Yeah I'm figuring it's better to keep families together and have them work, together if they are able to work.  Otherwise some of them could take care of the ones that need to be taken care of like daycare service workers usually do that.  That counts as work,. too, of course.

And yes of course there should also be breaks for resting and for meals.  Maybe even nap times.  No need to make them work like dogs. Some could play some music and serve refreshments  Make it fun!  No good reason work can't be fun at the same time.

Yea well we'd want it to work out.  The main objective would be to get something good accomplished and then reward those who work with at least the basic necessities they need to live life.   Did I mention showers and bathrooms yet?  Yeah they would need some of those too.

Yep, bathrooms and showers are a huge problem, especially when it is little churches that were hosting the families. I know of a shower trailer we were all blessed with that could be taken to the different hosts last year.

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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Please don’t encourage this. The world has gone insane and there is a statistically significant chance he could win.

Because we haven't had a representative in years who even tried to be honest and sincere.

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This generation inherited a perfect West Hemisphere, interms of it's cultural divisions. A Spanish-Portuguese South America, an Anglo-French North America and mixture of all cultures in Central America and the Caribbean. If we could figure out a just economic system for the region, we would not have an immigration problem in any sector, as each cultural group would be content in their own region, as God intended .

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On 12/5/2019 at 9:26 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

 And where in the world can one go to observe that in our glorious Trumptopia?

Not a bad post until you let this drop.

Edited by blarsen
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6 hours ago, Rain said:

They may be done better than they were last fall and spring.  Part of the problem was legally they could hold only so many and for so long so they had to drop them off before there was time to process them. 

I believe it is going better in Phoenix now, but some of that is because things really slowed during the summer and some because one of the large charities was able to do some things they couldn't do before.

Yep, bathrooms and showers are a huge problem, especially when it is little churches that were hosting the families. I know of a shower trailer we were all blessed with that could be taken to the different hosts last year.

I wish the church could open up it's doors for this. We have many in the Arizona area and in the western states. But probably not a whole lot in other areas, but every bit helps. I know that doing so would have to be a large undertaking, very aware.

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On 12/6/2019 at 3:07 AM, The Nehor said:

Best thing I read today.

 

”Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and render unto God only that which Caesar in his wisdom will allow you to offer.”

.....Nah, I prefer the original.

Of course, the last sentence was the cherry on the cake, no doubt 😉

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On 12/6/2019 at 8:46 AM, Danzo said:

I am going to be traveling today so I might not be able to respond until later. 

Briefly, there is no statute of limitations for immigration status. If you are brought to the us as an infant there is often no way for you to become legal. No way at all. In my professional life I have known many people in their thirties and forties who are here illegally and have absolutely no way to become legal. These people were brought here as infants having no choice.

They know no other language other than English, you would never have any reason to suspect they were even foreigners 

Interesting.  One has to wonder what became of the status of what I would assume to be their 'illegal' parents?  And why would such parents neglect to at least teach these infants their native language.  And you could pose another obvious question:  if these illegals retained the citizenship of their native countries, wouldn't their children be regarded as citizens of the same country, regardless of where they were born?

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4 hours ago, Jracforr said:

This generation inherited a perfect West Hemisphere, interms of it's cultural divisions. A Spanish-Portuguese South America, an Anglo-French North America and mixture of all cultures in Central America and the Caribbean. If we could figure out a just economic system for the region, we would not have an immigration problem in any sector, as each cultural group would be content in their own region, as God intended .

Unsurprisingly you left out the natives/Lamanites. Why is that do you think?

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On 12/6/2019 at 1:26 PM, Anonymous Mormon said:

 . . . . It's the reason that the Nordic countries that have huge social states and are held up as shining beacons of "socialism," don't allow many refugees to come enter. They know they can't afford it. . . .

I think you can exclude Sweden from this generality.  They are having massive problems from being too liberal in their 'refugee'  immigration policies.

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On 12/6/2019 at 1:58 PM, pogi said:

Yep, that's my point. 

That's because you didn't orient your pitch more toward:  "Vote for me, and there'll be biscuit trees on every corner and molasses running in the gutter.  Just grab ya a biscuit and sop your way to prosperitee". 

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1 hour ago, blarsen said:

Interesting.  One has to wonder what became of the status of what I would assume to be their 'illegal' parents?  And why would such parents neglect to at least teach these infants their native language.  And you could pose another obvious question:  if these illegals retained the citizenship of their native countries, wouldn't their children be regarded as citizens of the same country, regardless of where they were born?

So I guess you are in favor of punishing children for the parent's crime of not teaching children their native language.

I would presume you are in favor of punishing all children for all of the crimes of their fathers. 

After all what good could ever come from offspring of a criminal? Nits make lice and all that.

I guess the second article of faith doesn't mean much to you. 

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1 hour ago, Danzo said:

So I guess you are in favor of punishing children for the parent's crime of not teaching children their native language.

I would presume you are in favor of punishing all children for all of the crimes of their fathers. 

After all what good could ever come from offspring of a criminal? Nits make lice and all that.

I guess the second article of faith doesn't mean much to you. 

So I'm a Colonel Chivington?!  Good grief Danzo, don't be so touchy.  Just legitimate questions. 

Regarding those you've known to be in that condition, I'm wondering why they were left in the lurch all the way around.  Any assessment of those cases should involve questions such as these.  Why?  Possibly to discover recourse and justification for making the parents more responsible for the situation they created.

If this isn't possible, I see little problem in discovering a fast track/easy way for the children, now adults, to be brought into our system; especially if they never learned their parents native language and if they could not be counted as citizens of their parent's country of origin.

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