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New Handbook, LGBT Policies Still the Same


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The newest Handbook 1 revision has been published online (labeled "October 2019").  Despite the First Presidency announcement in April of this year and President Nelson's September BYU devotional in which changes to the policy were announced, it still remains exactly the same in the Handbook (original 2015 policies are still there).

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15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The newest Handbook 1 revision has been published online (labeled "October 2019").  Despite the First Presidency announcement in April of this year and President Nelson's September BYU devotional in which changes to the policy were announced, it still remains exactly the same in the Handbook (original 2015 policies are still there).

My Stake just had a "special" Stake Conference (we just had stake conference not long ago and they announced another "special" one) in which Elder Neil Anderson spoke.  Saturday night, only women were invited (I thought that was interesting, I've never seen that before).  In that women's session, Elder Anderson mentioned that he, Elder Christofferson, and one other apostle (can't remember which one) are currently working on a "simplified" handbook that will be available to all members.  It sounds like they are doing away with the two volume handbook and will be simplifying both volumes into one version available to all.  Perhaps changes to the policy will be seen in the version they are currently working on.  

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, pogi said:

My Stake just had a "special" Stake Conference (we just had stake conference not long ago and they announced another "special" one) in which Elder Neil Anderson spoke.  Saturday night, only women were invited (I thought that was interesting, I've never seen that before).  In that women's session, Elder Anderson mentioned that he, Elder Christofferson, and one other apostle (can't remember which one) are currently working on a "simplified" handbook that will be available to all members.  It sounds like they are doing away with the two volume handbook and will be simplifying both volumes into one version available to all.  Perhaps changes to the policy will be seen in the version they are currently working on.  

Interesting.

But, if they are still making changes to the current handbook, including those changes that were announced just prior to October conference, why wouldn't they also incorporate the change that was announced prior to April conference and then emphasized by President Nelson in September.  What is causing them to not change these policies in accordance with their own announcements after two handbook revisions?

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

The newest Handbook 1 revision has been published online (labeled "October 2019").  Despite the First Presidency announcement in April of this year and President Nelson's September BYU devotional in which changes to the policy were announced, it still remains exactly the same in the Handbook (original 2015 policies are still there).

Do you have links to both copies?

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Just now, Fether said:

Do you have links to both copies?

The May 2019 revision is gone but I saved the text of these particular sections because I know much discussion will ensue if it is ever changed to align with this year’s FP statements. 

The new October 2019 revision (as it is labeled, though published in November) is accessible online but only if your calling permits access to it.  

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42 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Interesting.

But, if they are still making changes to the current handbook, including those changes that were announced just prior to October conference, why wouldn't they also incorporate the change that was announced prior to April conference and then emphasized by President Nelson in September.  What is causing them to not change these policies in accordance with their own announcements after two handbook revisions?

Maybe they need to get the language cleared in multiple languages and legally vetted?  I have no clue why that would be since new language would likely be less legally problematic I would guess, but can’t think of any other reason they wouldn’t change it.

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37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe they need to get the language cleared in multiple languages and legally vetted?  I have no clue why that would be since new language would likely be less legally problematic I would guess, but can’t think of any other reason they wouldn’t change it.

Could be. There have also previously been chain updates over several months where they change a lot in sequence over multiple months ( I think I remember a slew of them in 2017) and there are also delays. This revision is listed as October and I can tell you it was not posted last week. I have been checking for something on a weekly basis.

In brighter news after my Stake President was trying to push Ward Youth Councils for every week the new handbook says it is usually a monthly meeting. Now to push back against the powers that be!  :vader: 

Edited by The Nehor
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46 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do you have links to both copies?

I just read it and I did not notice any changes. Well, maybe one but I could be misremembering. I thought that to be baptized after growing up with a parent in a single gender relationship you had to specifically disavow that kind of relationship in order to be baptized even when you are of legal age but now not. You still do if you are still a minor getting an exception. Then again I could be remembering incorrectly.

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3 hours ago, pogi said:

My Stake just had a "special" Stake Conference (we just had stake conference not long ago and they announced another "special" one) in which Elder Neil Anderson spoke.  Saturday night, only women were invited (I thought that was interesting, I've never seen that before).  In that women's session, Elder Anderson mentioned that he, Elder Christofferson, and one other apostle (can't remember which one) are currently working on a "simplified" handbook that will be available to all members.  It sounds like they are doing away with the two volume handbook and will be simplifying both volumes into one version available to all.  Perhaps changes to the policy will be seen in the version they are currently working on.  

Interesting. Are you sure they are doing away with the dual model with this change or is it more a plan to move a lot of Handbook 1 into Handbook 2 and leave only a few things more semi-confidential? I am not advocating for either but I am curious.

Also, when does Handbook 0 (the one the Apostles and Seventies have) go public?

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53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe they need to get the language cleared in multiple languages and legally vetted?  I have no clue why that would be since new language would likely be less legally problematic I would guess, but can’t think of any other reason they wouldn’t change it.

If forced to guess -- I think legal issues are the most likely cause of the delay.  I noted back in November 2015 that these policies seemed to be for legal protection of the church, above all.  And I remain convinced of that.

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19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This revision is listed as October and I can tell you it was not posted last week.

Also, the last revision was labeled as "May 2019" but was not published until late July or maybe August.

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18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I just read it and I did not notice any changes. Well, maybe one but I could be misremembering. I thought that to be baptized after growing up with a parent in a single gender relationship you had to specifically disavow that kind of relationship in order to be baptized even when you are of legal age but now not. You still do if you are still a minor getting an exception. Then again I could be remembering incorrectly.

Here is the full text of 16.13:

16.13  Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
(See First Presidency letter, November 13, 2015.)

It still has the "disavow" line (both requirements 1 and 2 must be met).

It is identical to the May 2019 revision and the original Nov 2015 version (except for the link to the 13-Nov-2015 FP letter).

 

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Just now, rockpond said:

Here is the full text of 16.13:

16.13  Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
(See First Presidency letter, November 13, 2015.)

It still has the "disavow" line (both requirements 1 and 2 must be met).

It is identical to the May 2019 revision and the original Nov 2015 version (except for the link to the 13-Nov-2015 FP letter).

 

Oh yeah, I should not have skimmed it while trying to train a pet. You are right. Ignore my deluded comment.

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14 hours ago, rockpond said:

Interesting.

But, if they are still making changes to the current handbook, including those changes that were announced just prior to October conference, why wouldn't they also incorporate the change that was announced prior to April conference and then emphasized by President Nelson in September.  What is causing them to not change these policies in accordance with their own announcements after two handbook revisions?

Good question, your guess is as good as mine on this one.

So, are church leaders obligated to follow the current handbook or the announcement at this point? 

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Interesting. Are you sure they are doing away with the dual model with this change or is it more a plan to move a lot of Handbook 1 into Handbook 2 and leave only a few things more semi-confidential? I am not advocating for either but I am curious.

Also, when does Handbook 0 (the one the Apostles and Seventies have) go public?

I tried to press my wife for further clarity, but all she could tell me is that he said he and two other apostles are simplifying "the handbook" and making it available to all.  Since he didn't specify one volume or the other, I took it to mean the entire 2 volume handbook is being simplified into a one volume handbook.  Also, the fact that he indicated that "it" would become available to all, to me suggests that this includes Handbook 1 which was previously unavailable to all. 

That is my interpretation of my wife's account.  I suppose there are other possibilities - so, the only thing I am sure of at this point is that there will be significant changes to "the handbook".   

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37 minutes ago, pogi said:

So, are church leaders obligated to follow the current handbook or the announcement at this point? 

I believe the principle is that you always follow the latest from the highest, which would be the announcement in this case.

 

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8 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I believe the principle is that you always follow the latest from the highest, which would be the announcement in this case.

I agree that the announcement is probably the right answer, but technically "the latest" is the handbook - which was updated after the announcement, and I think the handbook is approved by "the highest". 

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3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree that the announcement is probably the right answer, but technically "the latest" is the handbook - which was updated after the announcement, and I think the handbook is approved by "the highest". 

There is always a bit of “leadership roulette” but I think most leaders would be aware of the First Presidency statements and follow those. 
 

However, as time passes, those statements will fade in memory (they are not easily accessible). So if the handbook is never updated, I think that leaders will move back in that direction. 

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15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

my Stake President was trying to push Ward Youth Councils for every week

If I was a parent in your stake I'd be pushing back (gently) on this.  Home centered/church supported is great and all, but this sounds like a little too much church support.

Edited by ksfisher
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21 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If I was a parent in your stake I'd be pushing back (gently) on this.  Home centered/church supported is great and all, but this sounds like a like too much church support.

There has already been pushback. I told my Bishop about the handbook yesterday. I think he is meeting with stake president this week so hopefully it will he passed on.

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40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There has already been pushback. I told my Bishop about the handbook yesterday. I think he is meeting with stake president this week so hopefully it will he passed on.

There's nothing like reading the handbook.  It's full of answers.

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19 hours ago, pogi said:

My Stake just had a "special" Stake Conference (we just had stake conference not long ago and they announced another "special" one) in which Elder Neil Anderson spoke.  Saturday night, only women were invited (I thought that was interesting, I've never seen that before).  In that women's session, Elder Anderson mentioned that he, Elder Christofferson, and one other apostle (can't remember which one) are currently working on a "simplified" handbook that will be available to all members.  It sounds like they are doing away with the two volume handbook and will be simplifying both volumes into one version available to all.  Perhaps changes to the policy will be seen in the version they are currently working on.  

Many of the things that once existed in the “Handbook”, that addressed specific issues having to do with specific callings. Many of which no longer exist, therefore a lot of content can be eliminated, or combined. For instance, the High Priests Group, and their specific duties, also the Young Men’s Presidency, and their specific duties, etc. With these callings now eliminated, and many of the duties now assigned to the remaining callings, or quorums, and even some activities having been done away with, it can allow for a smaller handbook, or at least just one volume. For the past 11/2 years, I have served at the secretary in the Sunday School Presidency, only once has a meeting been called, which was canceled. About 8 months ago, the Presidency was reorganized, and I received a call on the telephone. A member of the Bishopric asked if I knew the new President who was called. I told him that I did not, due to the many Ward changes, I then asked, him does he even know me? He told me, “no”, but he did hear you speak in Church a few months back”. So, I agreed to the calling, but was never set apart, and the few months I have been able to attend, before getting so sick, I never met him. One of the counselors, who is a friend, tells me, “Bill, Sunday School is a ghost of it’s former self, what do they need a full Presidency for”? I told him, “I don’t know Mike, but I will be happy to help out, if I only knew who the President was, and what I am needed for”. So, Mike looks around and says, “oh, he is not here today, but I have hardly spoken two words to him, and have been given no instruction by him, or by the Bishopric.” I would be happy to do what I can, if I were asked to do anything. To draw my comments to a close, now that so few, are assigned so much, entire sections can be eliminated, just as the callings, and groups have been. Back in the day, one of the reasons for having to volumes of the handbook, had to do with Ward leadership having one volume, and the other to address person’s outside of Priesthood Leadership. When it comes to our obsession as of late, concerning ”LGBQT”, or whatever the acronym is now, nothing I have heard, would suggest that policy was are is going to change. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree that the announcement is probably the right answer, but technically "the latest" is the handbook - which was updated after the announcement, and I think the handbook is approved by "the highest". 

Well, was the entire handbook updated, or only select portions of the handbook? I would think that the announcement takes precedence unless or until the prophet says something different on the subject.

The outdated content in one section of the handbook doesn't suddenly become newly correct content just because some other portion of the handbook has been changed / updated first.

 

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