The Matthew Gong Letter

[HappyJackWagon 7,448]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

I assume you believe the Book of Mormon to be true.  99% of the world does not believe the book to be true.  So is it true?  Or is it your truth.  

 

Is there a living prophet?

Was Christ the Son of God?

Was the Book of Abraham written by Abraham himself?

While they all may be your truth, it can not be compared to 2+2 =4.  99% of the world would say your truth is not true at all.  It doesn't mean it is not your truth.

OR...

Have you ever been in a room when one person sweats and says the temperature is too hot, while another person in the same room shivers and claims it is too cold?

Which is the truth? Is it too cold or too hot? Or are both true to the individual who is sweating or shivering? Or is the only "truth" the fact that the thermostat states a temperature of 68 degrees,  regardless of the various interpretations of how it is experienced?

It is a scary thing when people can't see or even acknowledge the possibility that individuals experience the world and its facts in different, yet truthful ways.

[Jeanne 3,853]

For those who are gay...I hope they are not members anymore so that they can live a happy and fulfilling life of love and acceptance without guilt and shame.

[Fether 27]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is a scary thing when people can't see or even acknowledge the possibility that individuals experience the world and its facts in different, yet truthful ways.

So help me understand this, cause I have never understood this arguement.

Here is my understanding:

Truth: things as they are regardless of them being known or not or even measurable. Are not effected by feelings. The holocaust, did Epstein kill himself, the mass of a bowling ball, the composition of the sun.

Personal Truths: Feelings, experiences, preferences. Being cold, favorite food, feeling toward Starwars the Last Jedi, favorite scriptures.

to me, it would be improper to say “It is not my truth that Trump colluded with the Russians even though it is your truth. Therefore we are both correct” as the collusion either happened or it did not. I cannot say “it is not my truth that 2 planes flew into the world trade centers” as this was an actual event regardless of me witnessing it or not.

So with this in mind, when people say “it is your truth that the Latter-day Saint Church is true”, in my mind they are suggesting that at death everyone will get what they believe Andy-atheist will disappear from existence, Matthew-Mormon will get his planet, Cory-Catholic will worship Christ for eternity, Melvin-Muslim will get his 70 virgins (excuse my ignorance), Aaron-Agnostic will... well I don’t know what he will get, and Jordan-JehovahWitness will live on a perfect earth forever? 

Do we all have our own personal God’s that will each give us what we believe? 

Or are you saying what we believe is what makes us happy and ultimately that is what matters, so stop arguing cause happiness is the purpose of life.?

[SeekingUnderstanding 1,758]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

So help me understand this, cause I have never understood this arguement.

Here is my understanding:

Truth: things as they are regardless of them being known or not or even measurable. Are not effected by feelings. The holocaust, did Epstein kill himself, the mass of a bowling ball, the composition of the sun.

Personal Truths: Feelings, experiences, preferences. Being cold, favorite food, feeling toward Starwars the Last Jedi, favorite scriptures.

to me, it would be improper to say “It is not my truth that Trump colluded with the Russians even though it is your truth. Therefore we are both correct” as the collusion either happened or it did not. I cannot say “it is not my truth that 2 planes flew into the world trade centers” as this was an actual event regardless of me witnessing it or not.

So with this in mind, when people say “it is your truth that the Latter-day Saint Church is true”, in my mind they are suggesting that at death everyone will get what they believe Andy-atheist will disappear from existence, Matthew-Mormon will get his planet, Cory-Catholic will worship Christ for eternity, Melvin-Muslim will get his 70 virgins (excuse my ignorance), Aaron-Agnostic will... well I don’t know what he will get, and Jordan-JehovahWitness will live on a perfect earth forever? 

Do we all have our own personal God’s that will each give us what we believe? 

Or are you saying what we believe is what makes us happy and ultimately that is what matters, so stop arguing cause happiness is the purpose of life.?

It all depends on how you are approaching it. From a philosophical point of view, objective truth might be out there, but we as humans have no objective way to get at it. 

[Fether 27]

18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It all depends on how you are approaching it. From a philosophical point of view, objective truth might be out there, but we as humans have no objective way to get at it. 

So truth is only objective if it can be received. So there is no objective truth as to whether there is intelligent life outside of the earth until it is actually proven or disproven?

[california boy 5,961]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

So help me understand this, cause I have never understood this arguement.

Here is my understanding:

Truth: things as they are regardless of them being known or not or even measurable. Are not effected by feelings. The holocaust, did Epstein kill himself, the mass of a bowling ball, the composition of the sun.

Personal Truths: Feelings, experiences, preferences. Being cold, favorite food, feeling toward Starwars the Last Jedi, favorite scriptures.

to me, it would be improper to say “It is not my truth that Trump colluded with the Russians even though it is your truth. Therefore we are both correct” as the collusion either happened or it did not. I cannot say “it is not my truth that 2 planes flew into the world trade centers” as this was an actual event regardless of me witnessing it or not.

So with this in mind, when people say “it is your truth that the Latter-day Saint Church is true”, in my mind they are suggesting that at death everyone will get what they believe Andy-atheist will disappear from existence, Matthew-Mormon will get his planet, Cory-Catholic will worship Christ for eternity, Melvin-Muslim will get his 70 virgins (excuse my ignorance), Aaron-Agnostic will... well I don’t know what he will get, and Jordan-JehovahWitness will live on a perfect earth forever? 

Do we all have our own personal God’s that will each give us what we believe? 

Or are you saying what we believe is what makes us happy and ultimately that is what matters, so stop arguing cause happiness is the purpose of life.?

Are you willing to state that the Book of Mormon is not true.

[Fether 27]

Just now, california boy said:

Are you willing to state that the Book of Mormon is not true.

For the sake of this discussion, absolutely. 

[california boy 5,961]

Just now, Fether said:

For the sake of this discussion, absolutely. 

Fair enough.  Now do you believe that every member of the Church believes the Book of Mormon is not true?

[Fether 27]

Just now, california boy said:

Fair enough.  Now do you believe that every member of the Church believes the Book of Mormon is not true?

Admittedly I am not sure how to answer this... but ya, I believe there are plenty of members that don’t believe it is true.

[Fether 27]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Fair enough.  Now do you believe that every member of the Church believes the Book of Mormon is not true?

No, I do not believe that.

[california boy 5,961]

Just now, Fether said:

No, I do not believe that.

So this illustrates the point.  For many, their truth IS that the Book of Mormon is true.  Yet we know that 99% of the world does not believe it is true.  

Hence, personal truth can be only true for an individual.  It is their truth.  Just because the rest of the world does not believe the Book of Mormon is true, does not change the fact that some people have a personal truth that it is.

[SeekingUnderstanding 1,758]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

So truth is only objective if it can be received. So there is no objective truth as to whether there is intelligent life outside of the earth until it is actually proven or disproven?

Objectively, I know that I am conscious. Without other assumptions that can never be objectively verifiable, I can’t know anything else. I could be in the matrix so to speak and not know it. That’s not to say there is no objective truth, but I just can’t know it. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Fether 27]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

So this illustrates the point.  For many, their truth IS that the Book of Mormon is true.  Yet we know that 99% of the world does not believe it is true.  

Hence, personal truth can be only true for an individual.  It is their truth.  Just because the rest of the world does not believe the Book of Mormon is true, does not change the fact that some people have a personal truth that it is.

So in a separate example. If I believed that WWII never happened, would you be comfortable saying that that is my personal truth, but it is your personal truth that WWII actually did happen?

[Fether 27]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Objectively, I know that I am conscious. Without other assumptions that can never be objectively verifiable, I can’t know anything else. I could be in the matrix so to speak and not know it. That’s not to say there is no objective truth, but I just can’t know it. 

I’m bailing on this discussion if we are diving deep into epistemology x) but just so I understand you. You are suggesting we should not take anything as objectively true until we can prove it to be so? Hence why “my truth” is that there is a God is different from others on the basis that it can’t be prove (at least by our world’s standard’s of evidence)?

[Calm 40,212]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

For those who are gay...I hope they are not members anymore so that they can live a happy and fulfilling life of love and acceptance without guilt and shame.

Why is okay to dictate to someone what they must do to be happy as long as it isn’t within the confines of the church community?

[california boy 5,961]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

So in a separate example. If I believed that WWII never happened, would you be comfortable saying that that is my personal truth, but it is your personal truth that WWII actually did happen?

You are talking about two different kinds of truth.  I am not saying that absolute truth doesn't exist.  2 + 2 does indeed equal 4 whether you agree with it or not.  WWII did happen whether you agree with it or not.

What we have been talking about is personal truth.  Something that you personally believe is true because of the personal experiences you have had that someone else might not not have experienced.  That is why it is called your own "personal truth".  You believe it to be true to you, but not necessarily true for someone else.  

Edited November 9, 2019 by california boy

[Fether 27]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

You are talking about two different kinds of truth.  I am not saying that absolute truth doesn't exist.  2 + 2 does indeed equal 4 whether you agree with it or not.  WWII did happen whether you agree with it or not.

What we have been talking about is personal truth.  Something that you personally believe is true because of the personal experiences you have had that someone else might not not have experienced.  That is why it is called your own "personal truth".  You believe it to be true to you, but not necessarily true for someone else.  

And I’m assuming religion falls under this personal truth thing you are talking about. The truthfulness of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is my personal truth since we all have our personal truth, but not Andy-atheists and not Jordan-JehovahWitness’s? 

[kllindley 2,023]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

For those who are gay...I hope they are not members anymore so that they can live a happy and fulfilling life of love and acceptance without guilt and shame.

Nevermind. Not worth it. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by kllindley

[california boy 5,961]

47 minutes ago, Fether said:

And I’m assuming religion falls under this personal truth thing you are talking about. The truthfulness of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is my personal truth since we all have our personal truth, but not Andy-atheists and not Jordan-JehovahWitness’s? 

Exactly.  I certainly have very similar experiences as Matthew Gong with the Church.  Interesting that we both came out of our experiences with very similar conclusions.  I am not suggesting that every gay member has a similar experience, but I also don't think that his or my experience is particularly unique.  

[Fether 27]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Exactly.  I certainly have very similar experiences as Matthew Gong with the Church.  Interesting that we both came out of our experiences with very similar conclusions.  I am not suggesting that every gay member has a similar experience, but I also don't think that his or my experience is particularly unique.  

 

So... follow up question. If I, and a representative from every ideology/theology were In a plane crash resulting 0 survivors, are you suggesting we would all experience our own forms of afterlife? I will go to the celestial kingdom, Andy-atheist would cease to exist, Jordan-JW would find himself on a heavenly earth, Cory-Catholic would be worshiping Christ for eternity, and Ben-bushiest would be reincarnated as a bear? 

Or is this idea of personal truths more worried about respecting each other’s believes regardless of which one is most accurate to reality?

[mfbukowski 18,152]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

So truth is only objective if it can be received. So there is no objective truth as to whether there is intelligent life outside of the earth until it is actually proven or disproven?

That is what objective MEANS.

So it's like asking if green jello can still be green jello if it's red

 

[california boy 5,961]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

 

So... follow up question. If I, and a representative from every ideology/theology were In a plane crash resulting 0 survivors, are you suggesting we would all experience our own forms of afterlife? I will go to the celestial kingdom, Andy-atheist would cease to exist, Jordan-JW would find himself on a heavenly earth, Cory-Catholic would be worshiping Christ for eternity, and Ben-bushiest would be reincarnated as a bear? 

Or is this idea of personal truths more worried about respecting each other’s believes regardless of which one is most accurate to reality?

No I am not suggesting that.  

 

[mfbukowski 18,152]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Truth: things as they are regardless of them being known or not or even measurable. Are not effected by feelings. The holocaust, did Epstein kill himself, the mass of a bowling ball, the composition of the sun.

Truth are not things, truth is a property of sentences.

True car? Watch? Table? Waterfall?

No.

The proposition "The watch is on the table" however may or may not be true.

"The holocaust happened" may be true or false, but the holocaust itself cannot be either 

[MiserereNobis 4,951]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Truth are not things, truth is a property of sentences.

True car? Watch? Table? Waterfall?

No.

The proposition "The watch is on the table" however may or may not be true.

"The holocaust happened" may be true or false, but the holocaust itself cannot be either 

What do you say when you bear your testimony? I ask since “I know the church is true” is in my experience the standard starting point. 

[SeekingUnderstanding 1,758]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Truth are not things, truth is a property of sentences.

True car? Watch? Table? Waterfall?

No.

The proposition "The watch is on the table" however may or may not be true.

"The holocaust happened" may be true or false, but the holocaust itself cannot be either 

Just for the record those are not my words in your quote box.