Adoption Scam (Human Trafficking?) in Arizona/Utah

[2BizE]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

if there was a boke emoji I would use it a thousand times over

Nice use of the Quad.

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

This guys father was also an elected official and was forced to resign of a different criminal problem.  I’m too busy to find a link though...

LMGTFY: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2019/10/13/paul-petersen-father-david-petersen-resigned-arizona-treasurer-2006/3947951002/

[OGHoosier]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I should add that there is one exception. Adopting a hospice baby is another way of adopting a young child. Very few though are up for adopting a terminally ill child due to the obvious emotional complications.

This guy and those like him are some of my heroes: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-foster-father-sick-children-2017-story.html

Mohamed Bzeek deserves a place in the highest of high heavens. There can be good in the world. 

[The Nehor]

The tragic comedy is that they are now trying to fire the guy from his elected office but there are limited methods of removing someone so he is still getting a government salary while in jail. May want to look into fixing that guys.

[Meadowchik]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:58 PM, Thinking said:

I can't even imagine the emotional and mental scars that the birth mothers most likely have. Using one's church membership to operate something like this is awful.

Also the adoptive families who may have been too trusting.

There also seems to be notions of White Saviourism in the way Peterson promoted the adoptions, which is also troubling.

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Mohamed Bzeek deserves a place in the highest of high heavens. There can be good in the world. 

Yes that is a beautiful story. I thought instantly of this man when Nehor mentioned hospice adoption.

Truly, the way we treat the weakest among us is imo a measure of individual and societal integrity.

[Bob Crockett]

Who is complaining here?  The mothers?  The adoptive families?

i have listened to adoptive families who support this guy and they say he’s much cheaper and faster than the competitors. They all appreciate him and say he is sincere and compassionate. 

Aren’t Marshalese women treated as Americans?   

This is an example of an oppressive government interfering with freedom of choice. 

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Who is complaining here?  The mothers?  The adoptive families?

i have listened to adoptive families who support this guy and they say he’s much cheaper and faster than the competitors. They all appreciate him and say he is sincere and compassionate. 

Aren’t Marshalese women treated as Americans?   

This is an example of an oppressive government interfering with freedom of choice. 

Oh, c'mon!  It is ILLEGAL by treaty between the USA and the Marshall Islands for these actions to have taken place.  There is CLEAR fraud being imposed upon the people of Arizona through use of the Medicaid system.

[Bob Crockett]

Medicaid fraud is wrong but wholly unrelated to adoption.  

Illegal as malum prohibition.  The government takes no action to stop the abortion of millions of fetuses a year, although it could, but criminalize adoptions between consenting adults?  

 

 

 

 

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Medicaid fraud is wrong but wholly unrelated to adoption.  

Illegal as malum prohibition.  The government takes no action to stop the abortion of millions of fetuses a year, although it could, but criminalize adoptions between consenting adults?  

 

 

 

 

The fraud in this case is inextricably linked to the adoption scheme perpetrated by the accused.  Moreover, despite your philosophical musings, the fact of the matter is a treaty between the U.S. and the Marshall Islands specifically prohibits these adoptions.  Finally, there is considerable evidence many of these Marshallese women are being coerced and then held hostage.  All the libertarian hand-waving in the world doesn't justify any of those actions by Petersen. 

[Bob Crockett]

Malum prohibitum.  Illegal only because an oppressive government says so.  

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Malum prohibitum.  Illegal only because an oppressive government says so.  

What do you think of him taking their passports from them and leaving them without any resources for even semi-independence?

Quote

The women in Utah were “frightened and nervous” after Petersen was arrested, according to an affidavit filed by a special agent with the Utah attorney general’s office. They didn’t have money, cellphones or transportation, prosecutors said.

The agent also said Peterson and his associates would take passports from the Marshallese women while they were in the U.S., which gave him more control over them.

Or this report?

Quote

Another birth mother said a fixer for Petersen coerced her into staying in an isolated house in Arkansas. When she fled the house with two friends, she said the fixer threatened to call the police and make them pay their airfare.

And this:

Quote

Many of the Marshallese women who associated with Petersen reportedly didn’t know that by putting their babies up for adoption, they would sever all ties with the children, according to an investigation by the Honolulu Civil Beat.

Do you see anything immoral or criminal in these alleged actions?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Calm

[ttribe]

7 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Malum prohibitum.  Illegal only because an oppressive government says so.  

Nifty.  Run out and lead your revolution.  In the meantime, real laws were broken and real people were harmed.  Time to hold Petersen accountable.

[The Nehor]

On 10/26/2019 at 7:26 PM, Bob Crockett said:

Who is complaining here?  The mothers?  The adoptive families?

i have listened to adoptive families who support this guy and they say he’s much cheaper and faster than the competitors. They all appreciate him and say he is sincere and compassionate. 

Aren’t Marshalese women treated as Americans?   

This is an example of an oppressive government interfering with freedom of choice. 

Of course he is cheaper. He is hauling the women in and packing them in eight to a house with little to no prenatal care and spending almost nothing on their care which is what adoption costs are for. He pockets all of that. On top of that he basically imprisons the expectant mothers by taking their passports and offering threats if they try to leave about calling the cops on them. We used to call that slavery. Apparently you think it is good business practice? Liberty matters less than profit?

19 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Malum prohibitum.  Illegal only because an oppressive government says so.  

You disgust me. Oppress the widows and make a profit off of the orphans!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You disgust me. Oppress the widows and make a profit off of the orphans!

If he thinks the mothers aren't complaining, maybe he missed the parts where they did.

[secondclasscitizen]

On 10/28/2019 at 12:16 AM, The Nehor said:

Of course he is cheaper. He is hauling the women in and packing them in eight to a house with little to no prenatal care and spending almost nothing on their care which is what adoption costs are for. He pockets all of that. On top of that he basically imprisons the expectant mothers by taking their passports and offering threats if they try to leave about calling the cops on them. We used to call that slavery. 

 

Sounds a bit like an lds mission in a foreign country. Replace prennatal care with standard medical care and there ya go.

[smac97]

An update on the OP:

Quote

An elected official in Arizona was suspended Monday after he was charged with running a human smuggling scheme that brought pregnant women from the Marshall Islands to the U.S. to give birth and then paid them to give up their children for adoption.

Leaders in Arizona’s most populous county suspended Assessor Paul Petersen without pay for 120 days. The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors doesn’t have the power to permanently remove him from his office, which determines the value of properties for tax purposes in Phoenix and its suburbs.

Petersen, who is in federal custody, has so far refused to resign since his arrest on Oct. 8. His lawyer, Kurt Altman, said Petersen will fight to keep the $77,000-a-year job he was last elected to in 2016.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Sounds a bit like an lds mission in a foreign country. Replace prennatal care with standard medical care and there ya go.

No, it does not. All but the most dimwitted missionaries know how to get home and imagine the Mission President threatening to call the police on a missionary that decided to go home. While it is true that the Mission office usually keeps passports that is more a safety issue and not a coercive one.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

An update on the OP:

Thanks,

-Smac

They also managed to get his bail reduced. I am wondering if this is wise. I would see him as a serious flight risk.

[Stargazer]

On 10/27/2019 at 11:27 AM, Bob Crockett said:

Malum prohibitum.  Illegal only because an oppressive government says so.  

Yes, there is malum in se and malum prohibitum, and I definitely understand the difference.  But just because some law is malum prohibitum does not make it oppressive.  Something might not be evil in itself (malum in se), but still undesirable, and worth forbidding for the good of society.  Traffic laws, for example, pertain to acts which are malum prohibitum, but do you really think they are oppressive?  We could get by without them, but it probably wouldn't serve society to do so.

Besides all this, I don't think you should defend this guy's conduct, which is clearly fraudulent and immoral.

[longview]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They also managed to get his bail reduced. I am wondering if this is wise. I would see him as a serious flight risk.

Let not the inquisition slacken its fervor - - - (the government HATES competition, whether it be from criminals, white collar cutting corners, private or informal adoption agents, etc) - - -

[Bob Crockett]

On 10/26/2019 at 5:31 PM, ttribe said:

Oh, c'mon!  It is ILLEGAL by treaty between the USA and the Marshall Islands for these actions to have taken place.  There is CLEAR fraud being imposed upon the people of Arizona through use of the Medicaid system.

One thing that really troubles me is the way the government has intervened to oppose and frustrate the will of consenting adults in the adoption process.  So many deserving families and parents cannot adopt because, well, it is immoral for a mother to be paid for her baby.  I mean, a pregnant mom can go in and pay $1000 to murder her fetus and get away with it under the law, but be paid $20,000 for a baby?  Off to jail. And if moms could sell their babies without interference, how many of them would pay to murder their fetuses?  

When these mothers get on a plane to come to the US, are they not consenting adults?  Do they not know what they are doing?  Although a passport is required for Marshallians, they can come and go in the US all they want, and are almost as free to come to the US as Puerto Ricans. 

I heard a radio interview a week ago of one of the families benefited by Mr. Peterson.  He painted an entirely different picture of what is said in the charging documents.  He recounted how he and his family had regular posts and discussions with the pregnant birth mother, and how they keep in touch after the birth and after the mother returned to the Marshall Islands.  Peterson operates only open adoptions.  He described how the birth mother was housed in the US, how she came and how she returned.  He described the compassion of Mr. Peterson.  He said that the obstacles were smoothed expertly by Mr. Peterson.  We have marshallian adoptees in the ward next to mine, so I can see how the process worked for them in that case.  

If it weren't for oppressive government interference, there would be many more adoptions into loving families.  Fewer murders of fetuses.   Does the state have an interest in preventing "human trafficking?"  That is such a loaded and oppressive phrase which means almost nothing to me.

 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

One thing that really troubles me is the way the government has intervened to oppose and frustrate the will of consenting adults in the adoption process. 

First, the solution to a problematic law is to undo the law.  Not break or circumvent or flout it.

Second, there are all sorts of laws that prohibit "consenting adults" from engaging in mutually consensual behavior.  

Third, there are likely substantial public policy reasons for the treaty.

Fourth, the purported "consenting adults" are not the only ones that have a vested interest in regulating adoption.

Quote

So many deserving families and parents cannot adopt because, well, it is immoral for a mother to be paid for her baby.  I mean, a pregnant mom can go in and pay $1000 to murder her fetus and get away with it under the law, but be paid $20,000 for a baby?  Off to jail. And if moms could sell their babies without interference, how many of them would pay to murder their fetuses?  

I think it's off the mark to juxtapose problematic adoptions with abortion.  Way too extreme.  Way too pliable a means of justifying all sorts of problematic behavior.  Conduct X (illegal adoption) being less morally problematic than Conduct Y (abortion) does not ameliorate or justify Conduct X.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 29, 2019 by smac97

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

First, the solution to a problematic law is to undo the law.  Not break or circumvent or flout it.

Second, there are all sorts of laws that prohibit "consenting adults" from engaging in mutually consensual behavior.  

Third, there are likely substantial public policy reasons for the treaty.

Fourth, the purported "consenting adults" are not the only ones that have a vested interest in regulating adoption.

I think it's off the mark to juxtapose problematic adoptions with abortion.  Way too extreme.  Way to pliable a means of justifying all sorts of problematic behavior.  Conduct X (illegal adoption) being less morally problematic than Conduct Y (abortion) does not ameliorate or justify Conduct X.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm not talking about "all sorts of laws."  I'm talking about consenting adults here.  Abortion, or adoption?  They are tied together at the hip.  OK to let a consenting woman murder her fetus, which in my opinion is a direct assault upon minorities, but not OK to let her avoid abortion and instead contract to sell her child for money?  

There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures prohibiting a mother from giving her child to a loving home for adoption.   

There is no evidence that any of Mr. Peterson's adoption clients were anything other than loving and capable parents.  

[longview]

22 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Fourth, the purported "consenting adults" are not the only ones that have a vested interest in regulating adoption.

I think it's off the mark to juxtapose problematic adoptions with abortion.  Way too extreme.  Way to pliable a means of justifying all sorts of problematic behavior.  Conduct X (illegal adoption) being less morally problematic than Conduct Y (abortion) does not ameliorate or justify Conduct X.

I'm not talking about "all sorts of laws."  I'm talking about consenting adults here.  Abortion, or adoption?  They are tied together at the hip.  OK to let a consenting woman murder her fetus, which in my opinion is a direct assault upon minorities, but not OK to let her avoid abortion and instead contract to sell her child for money?  

There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures prohibiting a mother from giving her child to a loving home for adoption.   

There is no evidence that any of Mr. Peterson's adoption clients were anything other than loving and capable parents.  

If there were informal options for the women undergoing the abortion procedure with the choice of being anonymous or peripherally involved, there would be many more who would be willing to carry to term and hand over the child to intermediaries such as church or foundation or some intimate network.  The waiting list for "adoptive" parents is tragically way too long.