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Removing the veil of deceased women


Tiffany

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Im not sure if I am posting this in the right place. I would like some information or insight into this. I remember hearing something before this year that once a woman dies only a man in the preisthood could wake her from her death and remove her veil. I didnt pay a whole lot of attention thinking it was a misguided member, but then I found out now that there was a policy change to women being veiled only if they choose to be when they are deceased (I didnt know that was a policy to begin with). Can anyone enlighten me as to what the PURPOSE is of veiling a woman in death and not a man. Thank you. 

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15 hours ago, Tiffany said:

once a woman dies only a man in the preisthood could wake her from her death and remove her veil.

I don’t know about removing her veil (given we may be in spirit form first after death, I see all that as likely symbolic rather than literal), but usually it is described as her husband doing so. Also do we even ‘wake up’ after death or does our spirit simply leave our body as appears to happen in NDEs?  

This traditional understanding of husbands bringing their wives out of the grave is from before single women typically received their endowments, so the vast majority of sisters buried in temple clothing would have been married. 

I don’t remember any speculation on what would happen with single sisters. 

It gets complicated when one starts thinking of all those who weren’t buried, but burned or drowned or those with decomposed bodies.  Then there are the molecules that got consumed into plants or other animals and recycled through the millennium. Even preserved ones will be substantially damaged so there is no way the same molecules that composed our bodies will be part of our resurrection...assuming resurrection is even immediately after death?  (What about spirit prison and paradise?)

A man never wears a veil in the temple, but if buried in temple clothing wears all of them as he wears them in the temple, including the hat....meaning no veil in life or death. 

Edited by Calm
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13 hours ago, Tiffany said:

Im not sure if I am posting this in the right place. I would like some information or insight into this. I remember hearing something before this year that once a woman dies only a man in the preisthood could wake her from her death and remove her veil. I didnt pay a whole lot of attention thinking it was a misguided member, but then I found out now that there was a policy change to women being veiled only if they choose to be when they are deceased (I didnt know that was a policy to begin with). Can anyone enlighten me as to what the PURPOSE is of veiling a woman in death and not a man. Thank you. 

The veil is just part of the a woman's temple clothing. When men are buried they are buried in the full temple clothing attire, which does not include a veil. 

An individual may choose not to be buried in temple clothing - there is no requirement to do so. The choice belongs to the deceased and their family. 

A "man" does not, cannot "wake" a woman up. The power of the resurrection belongs to God. There are rather romantic Mormon legends that talk of a husband lifting his wife's veil, but that is pure speculation. 

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14 hours ago, Tiffany said:

Im not sure if I am posting this in the right place. I would like some information or insight into this. I remember hearing something before this year that once a woman dies only a man in the preisthood could wake her from her death and remove her veil. I didnt pay a whole lot of attention thinking it was a misguided member, but then I found out now that there was a policy change to women being veiled only if they choose to be when they are deceased (I didnt know that was a policy to begin with). Can anyone enlighten me as to what the PURPOSE is of veiling a woman in death and not a man. Thank you. 

It was probably related to the same purpose for women being veiled (for a moment) in the temple, but not men. That has changed in the temple and it makes sense that the change is for clothing in death as well.  

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16 hours ago, Calm said:

........................... there is no way the same molecules that composed our bodies will be part of our resurrection...assuming resurrection is even immediately after death? .............................

The elements and molecules are completely interchangeable and therefore irrelevant.  They even change throughout our lives.  After death, others will have bodies using the very same elements and molecules which were already used and reused.  All the resurrected need is a collection of elements which have been glorified, whatever that means.  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

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14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The veil is just part of the a woman's temple clothing. When men are buried they are buried in the full temple clothing attire, which does not include a veil. 

An individual may choose not to be buried in temple clothing - there is no requirement to do so. The choice belongs to the deceased and their family. 

A "man" does not, cannot "wake" a woman up. The power of the resurrection belongs to God. There are rather romantic Mormon legends that talk of a husband lifting his wife's veil, but that is pure speculation. 

Past church leaders have suggested the the act of resurrection is a priesthood ordinance

Brigham Young said:
"It is supposed by this people that we have all the ordinances in our possession for life and salvation, and exaltation, and that we are administering in these ordinances. This is not the case.
We are in possession of all the ordinances that can be administered in the flesh; but there are other ordinances and administrations that must be administered beyond this world. I know you would ask what they are.
I will mention one. We have not, neither can we receive here, the ordinance and the keys of the resurrection. They will be given to those who have passed off this stage of action and have received their bodies again, as many have already done and many more will. They will be ordained, by those who hold the keys of the resurrection, to go forth and resurrect the Saints, just as we receive the ordinance of baptism, then the keys of authority to baptize others for the remission of their sins. This is one of the ordinances we can not receive here, and there are many more." (Aug. 24, 1872, Journal of Discourses 15:137.)

Wilford Woodruff's journal contains the following:
"Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carloss, and when that is done then He will say, "now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected." (The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, pp.168-169)

There is a moment in the temple before a husband and wife are sealed that seems to be representative of this idea of a husband resurrecting his wife but we can't be certain as to how accurate these comments are by past church leaders. They maybe just speculation on their part. There's no official church doctrine on the subject.

 

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16 hours ago, JAHS said:

Past church leaders have suggested the the act of resurrection is a priesthood ordinance

Brigham Young said:
"It is supposed by this people that we have all the ordinances in our possession for life and salvation, and exaltation, and that we are administering in these ordinances. This is not the case.
We are in possession of all the ordinances that can be administered in the flesh; but there are other ordinances and administrations that must be administered beyond this world. I know you would ask what they are.
I will mention one. We have not, neither can we receive here, the ordinance and the keys of the resurrection. They will be given to those who have passed off this stage of action and have received their bodies again, as many have already done and many more will. They will be ordained, by those who hold the keys of the resurrection, to go forth and resurrect the Saints, just as we receive the ordinance of baptism, then the keys of authority to baptize others for the remission of their sins. This is one of the ordinances we can not receive here, and there are many more." (Aug. 24, 1872, Journal of Discourses 15:137.)

Wilford Woodruff's journal contains the following:
"Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carloss, and when that is done then He will say, "now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected." (The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, pp.168-169)

There is a moment in the temple before a husband and wife are sealed that seems to be representative of this idea of a husband resurrecting his wife but we can't be certain as to how accurate these comments are by past church leaders. They maybe just speculation on their part. There's no official church doctrine on the subject.

 

I am familiar with those comments from President Young and President Woodruff, but my comment remains - the power of the resurrection comes directly in and through Jesus Christ. 

There MAY be ordinances such as described by these brethren, but they remain supposition and are not recognized as doctrine of the Church.  

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On 10/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, katherine the great said:

I plan to be cremated so anyone or no one is welcome to remove my veil.  (IMO, this is all highly symbolic/cultural and absolutely not required by God of anyone)

I also plan on cremation.  Much cleaner and less complicated.

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Same here.  Being shut up for centuries in a box decomposing stuffed full of chemicals is so unappealing.  If green burial is more common by the time I kick it, I like the thought of being fertilizer for a tree even better.  No box and gone in a few years except for the bones and teeth perhaps.  If temple clothing is still recommended, will need to go all cotton, .I guess.

Edited by Calm
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/22/2019 at 2:43 AM, Calm said:

I don’t know about removing her veil (given we may be in spirit form first after death, I see all that as likely symbolic rather than literal), but usually it is described as her husband doing so. Also do we even ‘wake up’ after death or does our spirit simply leave our body as appears to happen in NDEs?  

This traditional understanding of husbands bringing their wives out of the grave is from before single women typically received their endowments, so the vast majority of sisters buried in temple clothing would have been married. 

I don’t remember any speculation on what would happen with single sisters. 

It gets complicated when one starts thinking of all those who weren’t buried, but burned or drowned or those with decomposed bodies.  Then there are the molecules that got consumed into plants or other animals and recycled through the millennium. Even preserved ones will be substantially damaged so there is no way the same molecules that composed our bodies will be part of our resurrection...assuming resurrection is even immediately after death?  (What about spirit prison and paradise?)

A man never wears a veil in the temple, but if buried in temple clothing wears all of them as he wears them in the temple, including the hat....meaning no veil in life or death. 

There was a tradition that husbands would use the Priesthood to resurrect their wife (or wives back in the day) once they had been raised by other leaders as organized by Christ.

As to what happens to single sisters this leads to one of my favorite J Golden Kimball stories, remarkable for not being funny or involving any swearing:

Quote

In Elder Kimball’s Salt Lake City ward, there was a young single woman. Whenever there was a birthday party, Christmas party, or other holidays being celebrated, Elder Kimball would be invited and would attend if he was feeling well and was in town.  This lovely women was in the car that picked up Elder Kimball for a party on one occasion.  At the party he quietly sat in the corner listening to the conversation.  “Somehow the conversation got around to the fact that I was the only single woman in the room.  They were kidding me, but the joshing got a little mean.  What was I going to do on the morning of the first resurrection with no husband.  I just tried to pass it off and said, ‘Oh, I’ll just sleep a little longer. You all go on ahead without me and find your mates.’ . . . I was getting embarrassed.  It was hard on me, but they still were at it when Brother Kimball interrupted and said, ‘Let me tell you about some experiences I had when I was off on a conference assignment last weekend.’  He had sensed my embarrassment and changed the whole direction of the conversation. . . . We took Brother Kimball home in the car that night. . . . We dropped him off at his home and he waved and thanked us all and started down the driveway. 

“Then he turned, raised his cane and said, ‘Wait a minute!  Wait a minute!’  He came to my side of the car and tapped on the window.  I rolled the window down.  He looked in at me and said, ‘Irma, I want you to know something.  On that morning of the first resurrection, don’t you be worried---I’ll be there for you.’  Then he turned and walked back to the house.

“I was absolutely in tears.  He was a lovely, lovely man”

 

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On 10/22/2019 at 7:41 AM, Storm Rider said:

The veil is just part of the a woman's temple clothing. When men are buried they are buried in the full temple clothing attire, which does not include a veil. 

An individual may choose not to be buried in temple clothing - there is no requirement to do so. The choice belongs to the deceased and their family. 

A "man" does not, cannot "wake" a woman up. The power of the resurrection belongs to God. There are rather romantic Mormon legends that talk of a husband lifting his wife's veil, but that is pure speculation. 

Upon a time only a woman's husband had the endowed priesthood power to awake her and her rise from death to be escorted through the sentinels and portals into the Throne Room of God.

How that has changed since then, I do knot know.

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On 11/3/2019 at 12:57 PM, Jake Starkey said:

Upon a time only a woman's husband had the endowed priesthood power to awake her and her rise from death to be escorted through the sentinels and portals into the Throne Room of God.

How that has changed since then, I do knot know.

I don't think of it as changing, but rather an opinion that no longer gains a wide range of repetition among the saints or the current group of prophets and apostles. I suspect it is more of something that may be nice to know, but given there is no actual doctrinal acceptance, the focus on teachings are on more concrete things. 

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