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Y-DNA common to Native Americans, Poles & Germans .. Lehi?


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Has the blood of Lehi been hiding in plain sight because by coincidence or divine intent, it was closely related to Jaredite Y-chromosome lineage? Big Y research divides Native Americans and brings them closer to Europeans. Q-M3 is distinctly AmerIndian. It's closest relative (Q-L804) is European and largely Scandinavian. Their mutual parent, Q-CTS11969, has, so far, only been found in the American Indian gene pool, but must have once existed in Europe because the European Q-L804, is one of it's direct descendants and arose at least 3,000 years ago. Q-CTS1780 is today found in both the Native American and European gene pools. 

Q-CTS11969 - Native American (Q1a2a1a)
             Q-M3 - Native American (Q1a2a1a1)
          Q-L804 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q1a2a1a2)
  Q-CTS1780 - Native American, Polish & German (Q1a2a1b)

Sources
https://i0.wp.com/dna-explained.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ftdna-2014-q-tree.png?ssl=1

  Big Y DNA Results Divide and Unite Haplogroup Q Native Americans
https://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/
 

Edited by dougtheavenger
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11 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Has the blood of Lehi been hiding in plain sight because by an astounding coincidence or divine intent, it was closely related to Jaredite Y-chromosome lineage? Big Y research divides Native Americans and brings them closer to Europeans. Q-M3 is distinctly AmerIndian. It's closest relative (Q-L804) is European and largely Scandinavian. Their mutual parent, Q-CTS11969, has, as yet, only been found in the American Indian gene pool, but must have once existed in Europe because the European Q-L804, is one of it's direct descendants and arose at least 3,000 years ago. Q-CTS1780 is today found in both the Native American and European gene pools. 

Q-CTS11969 - Native American (Q1a2a1a)
             Q-M3 - Native American (Q1a2a1a1)
          Q-L804 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q1a2a1a2)
  Q-CTS1780 - Native American, Polish & German (Q1a2a1b)

Sources
https://i0.wp.com/dna-explained.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ftdna-2014-q-tree.png?ssl=1

  Big Y DNA Results Divide and Unite Haplogroup Q Native Americans
https://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/
 

How do you respond to the charge that this result is obviously due to European admixture in Native American DNA?

Edited by RevTestament
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7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

How do you respond to the charge that this result is obviously due to European admixture in Native American DNA?

I thought that what he was testing for in the Big Y project -- to see what your admixture might be.

I have asked a professional geneticist (PhD) his opinion.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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I would find it extremely unlikely that Lehi would be carrying Northern European DNA. A more likely candidate is Scandinavian sailing, perhaps on an earlier timetable than previously realized.

 

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10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

How do you respond to the charge that this result is obviously due to European admixture in Native American DNA?

It is not the scientific consensus that Q-CTS1780 in Native Americans is the result of post-Columbian admixture. However, let's say for the sake of argument it was. That still does not change the fact that Q-M3 and Q-L804 both have the same paternal lineage, Q-CTS11969. Q-M3 is indisputably American Indian and Q-L804 is indisputably European and Q-L804 is at least 3,000 years old. Q-CTS11969 must have existed in Europe or the Near East about 3,000 years ago. If Lehi, who lived and journeyed to America 2,619 years ago, was Q-CTS11969, his descendants would be hard to distinguish from the Q-CTS11969 already there. As for the difference between Near Eastern and European DNA, what you find in Europe, you also often find in the Near East and vice versa.

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3 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I would find it extremely unlikely that Lehi would be carrying Northern European DNA. A more likely candidate is Scandinavian sailing, perhaps on an earlier timetable than previously realized.

 

Q-L804 is Northern European today. The scientific consensus is that Q-L804 migrated to Northern Europe from Central Europe sometime in the last 3,000. However, I'm not saying Lehi was Q-L804. I'm saying Lehi may have been Q-CTS11969 which is the direct ancestor of Q-L804 and Q-M3. I think it likely that Q-CTS11969 will be found in Europe or the Near East, but even if it never is, we know it once existed there because, it's direct descendant, Q-L804, does exist in Europe today and has for 3,000 years.

Edited by dougtheavenger
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10 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Q-L804 is Northern European today. The scientific consensus is that Q-L804 migrated to Northern Europe from Central Europe sometime in the last 3,000. However, I'm not saying Lehi was Q-L804. I'm saying Lehi may have been Q-CTS11969 which is the direct ancestor of Q-L804 and Q-M3. I think it likely that Q-CTS11969 will be found in Europe or the Near East, but even if it never is, we know it once existed there because, it's direct descendant, Q-L804, does exist in Europe today and has for 3,000 years.

The 8500 year old Kennewick man was Q-M3. 

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5 hours ago, katherine the great said:

The 8500 year old Kennewick man was Q-M3. 

Yes. Q-M3 and Q-L804 are both branches of Q-CTS11969. Q-L804 branched off from Q-CTS11969 about 3,000 years ago. Q-M3 branched off earlier.

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18 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

M3 is indisputably American Indian 

Q-M3 has been found in Xiongnu sites and also among the Yeniseians:

In L. L. Kang et al. (2013), three samples from a Xiongnu) site in Barkol, Xinjiang were found to be Q-M3 (Q1a2a1a1). And, as Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseians and Native Americans, the authors suggest that the Xiongnu had connections to speakers of the Yeniseian languages. (source)

 

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2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Q-M3 has been found in Xiongnu sites and also among the Yeniseians:

In L. L. Kang et al. (2013), three samples from a Xiongnu) site in Barkol, Xinjiang were found to be Q-M3 (Q1a2a1a1). And, as Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseians and Native Americans, the authors suggest that the Xiongnu had connections to speakers of the Yeniseian languages. (source)

 

L. L. Kang et al (2013) claims the remains of 3 individuals from a site in Barkol, Xinjiang were found to be Q-M3. That was news to me. Fascinating. However, I'm not aware of any living populations of Q-M3 people who are not Native American or descendants of such. The Yeniseian language group today includes only the Kets who live just east of the Ural mountains in Russia. This group has been studied quite extensively because of the high percentage of Q-M242. No Q-M3 so far as I know.

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4 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

The Yeniseian language group today includes only the Kets who live just east of the Ural mountains in Russia. This group has been studied quite extensively because of the high percentage of Q-M242. No Q-M3 so far as I know.

The interesting thing about the Yeniseian language group is the similarities to Na Dene.

Just a few months ago it was determined that a group of Dene-Yeniseian speakers crossed over to the Americas by boat around the time of the Jaredites 3000 to 2000 BC. These were the ancestors of the Navajo and Apache.
 
These First Americans Vanished Without a Trace — But Hints of Them Linger

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On 9/29/2019 at 11:49 PM, dougtheavenger said:

Has the blood of Lehi been hiding in plain sight because by coincidence or divine intent, it was closely related to Jaredite Y-chromosome lineage? Big Y research divides Native Americans and brings them closer to Europeans. Q-M3 is distinctly AmerIndian. It's closest relative (Q-L804) is European and largely Scandinavian. Their mutual parent, Q-CTS11969, has, so far, only been found in the American Indian gene pool, but must have once existed in Europe because the European Q-L804, is one of it's direct descendants and arose at least 3,000 years ago. Q-CTS1780 is today found in both the Native American and European gene pools. 

Q-CTS11969 - Native American (Q1a2a1a)
             Q-M3 - Native American (Q1a2a1a1)
          Q-L804 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q1a2a1a2)
  Q-CTS1780 - Native American, Polish & German (Q1a2a1b)

Sources
https://i0.wp.com/dna-explained.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ftdna-2014-q-tree.png?ssl=1

  Big Y DNA Results Divide and Unite Haplogroup Q Native Americans
https://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/
 

Hey wait a minute.

How can I keep thinking the Nephites were not historical if I am one??  :unknw::blink:

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On 10/2/2019 at 3:16 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

The interesting thing about the Yeniseian language group is the similarities to Na Dene.

Just a few months ago it was determined that a group of Dene-Yeniseian speakers crossed over to the Americas by boat around the time of the Jaredites 3000 to 2000 BC. These were the ancestors of the Navajo and Apache.
 
These First Americans Vanished Without a Trace — But Hints of Them Linger

Fascinating. I'll have to read that. I want to correct one mistake I made about the Kets. I confused them with the Selkups. The Kets live farther east in central Siberia, along the Yenisei river.

Edited by dougtheavenger
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On 10/1/2019 at 10:42 PM, dougtheavenger said:

L. L. Kang et al (2013) claims the remains of 3 individuals from a site in Barkol, Xinjiang were found to be Q-M3. That was news to me. Fascinating. However, I'm not aware of any living populations of Q-M3 people who are not Native American or descendants of such. The Yeniseian language group today includes only the Kets who live just east of the Ural mountains in Russia. This group has been studied quite extensively because of the high percentage of Q-M242. No Q-M3 so far as I know.

I did some brushing up on Q-M3. This Y-Chromosome haplogroup in living populations is limited to Native Americans and some Eskimo and Asians living near the Bering Sea. The existence of M3 in Eskimos is believed to have been through contact with Native Americans. Eskimos live on both sides of the Bering Sea where Asia is closest to North America. M3 also spread from Eskimo on the Asian side to their Asian neighbors like the Chukchi. The existence of M3 in ancient Asian remains further West is interesting but not really relevant to this discussion.

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On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 11:49 PM, dougtheavenger said:

Has the blood of Lehi been hiding in plain sight because by coincidence or divine intent, it was closely related to Jaredite Y-chromosome lineage? Big Y research divides Native Americans and brings them closer to Europeans. Q-M3 is distinctly AmerIndian. It's closest relative (Q-L804) is European and largely Scandinavian. Their mutual parent, Q-CTS11969, has, so far, only been found in the American Indian gene pool, but must have once existed in Europe because the European Q-L804, is one of it's direct descendants and arose at least 3,000 years ago. Q-CTS1780 is today found in both the Native American and European gene pools. 

Q-CTS11969 - Native American (Q1a2a1a)
             Q-M3 - Native American (Q1a2a1a1)
          Q-L804 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q1a2a1a2)
  Q-CTS1780 - Native American, Polish & German (Q1a2a1b)
 

Nephites in Europe

 

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7 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

 Eskimos live on both sides of the Bering Sea where Asia is closest to North America.

I heard direct testimony of this from a Yupik Eskimo I was talking to in Nome Alaska, a number of years ago.  He said that during WWII, he had visited a cousin of his in Siberia via a whale-skin boat across the Bering Straits.

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On 9/30/2019 at 9:12 PM, OGHoosier said:

I would find it extremely unlikely that Lehi would be carrying Northern European DNA. A more likely candidate is Scandinavian sailing, perhaps on an earlier timetable than previously realized.

 

Someone wrote an article or two a few years back about the Nephites migration north led them to settle in Germany. It was an interesting theory

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11 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Someone wrote an article or two a few years back about the Nephites migration north led them to settle in Germany. It was an interesting theory

Replied to wrong post.

Edited by blarsen
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On 9/30/2019 at 8:12 PM, OGHoosier said:

I would find it extremely unlikely that Lehi would be carrying Northern European DNA. A more likely candidate is Scandinavian sailing, perhaps on an earlier timetable than previously realized.

 

Barry Fell translated a Tifinag (Tifinagh) script found in Ontario, Canada.  The script is also found in pre-pre-Viking inscriptions in Scandinavia as well as among ancient Berber people of N. Africa.  An amazing and mysterious geographical spread.   Here is an excerpt describing Fell's finding and translation of the early Scandinavian script in Ontario, taken from:     In Praise of Barry Fell at:   http://www.equinox-project.com/DRFEL.HTM ,

Quote

In this book (Bronze Age America) Dr. Fell recognized Norse content in a petroglyph site near Peterboro, Canada. The style and writing systems he recognized placed the sites origins two millennia before the Viking era. The fact that there are near equals to the ships and writings found in Scandinavia is convincing evidence that demonstrate his correct identification. Norse scholars have had little difficulty with these decipherments.

Edited by blarsen
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Is there any reason to assume this work of Fell’s is more accurate than other stuff he is known for in his hobby (professionally he was a zoologist)?

Quote

His writings on epigraphy and archaeology are generally rejected by those mainstream scholars who have considered them.

From wiki

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The following notation may make it a bit clearer what the relationship is between these lineages

Q1a2a1a - Native American (Q-CTS11969)
         Q1a2a1a1 - Native American (Q-M3)
         Q1a2a1a2 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q-L804)
Q1a2a1b - Native American, Polish & German (Q-CTS1780)

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20 hours ago, Calm said:

Is there any reason to assume this work of Fell’s is more accurate than other stuff he is known for in his hobby (professionally he was a zoologist)?

From wiki

Most of whom have undoubtedly not looked at his work from an epigraphic point of view.  This post was about possible evidence for very early Norse DNA haplogroups showing up in AmerIndian DNA complexes.  What you would need to do is to consult experts in the Tifinagh scripts found in all 3 places (Scandinavia, Ontario and North Africa), to see what their opinion of Fell might be, and why.  Fell is up against intense dislike and rejection from Anthropologist/Archaeologists who are still valiantly defending the non-Diffusion point of view.

Edited by blarsen
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On 10/5/2019 at 8:16 PM, doug1957 said:

The following notation may make it a bit clearer what the relationship is between these lineages

Q1a2a1a - Native American (Q-CTS11969)
         Q1a2a1a1 - Native American (Q-M3)
         Q1a2a1a2 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q-L804)
Q1a2a1b - Native American, Polish & German (Q-CTS1780)

But Q-M3 is not exclusively Native American, it has been found in Xiongnu royals dating to 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

BTW, there's a theory that the Xiongnu were Iranian:

"Harold Walter Bailey proposed an Iranian origin of the Xiongnu, recognizing all the earliest Xiongnu names of the 2nd century BC as being of the Iranian type. This theory is supported by turkologist Henryk Jankowski. Central Asian scholar Christopher I. Beckwith notes that the Xiongnu name could be a cognate of Scythian, Saka and Sogdia, corresponding to a name for Northern Iranians. According to Beckwith the Xiongnu could have contained a leading Iranian component when they started out, but more likely they had earlier been subjects of an Iranian people and learned from them the Iranian nomadic model. In the 1994 UNESCO-published History of Civilizations of Central Asia, its editor János Harmatta claims that: "The royal tribes and kings of the [Xiongnu] bore Iranian names, that all Xiongnu words noted by the Chinese can be explained from a Scythian language, and that it is therefore clear that the majority of [Xiongnu] tribes spoke an Eastern Iranian language." (source)

Edited by Rajah Manchou
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On 10/3/2019 at 10:53 AM, hagoth3 said:

Nephites in Europe

 

Hello Hagoth! Good to see you again. R U behind the making of that video? Looks classy. I rather suspect a connection between the Germanic tribes and the Lost tribes, but it is more direct originating from the time the Goths spent around the Black Sea intermingling with the Samartians. The Alans even got adopted in. Intriguing stuff.

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On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 12:49 AM, dougtheavenger said:

Has the blood of Lehi been hiding in plain sight because by coincidence or divine intent, it was closely related to Jaredite Y-chromosome lineage? Big Y research divides Native Americans and brings them closer to Europeans. Q-M3 is distinctly AmerIndian. It's closest relative (Q-L804) is European and largely Scandinavian. Their mutual parent, Q-CTS11969, has, so far, only been found in the American Indian gene pool, but must have once existed in Europe because the European Q-L804, is one of it's direct descendants and arose at least 3,000 years ago. Q-CTS1780 is today found in both the Native American and European gene pools. 

Q-CTS11969 - Native American (Q1a2a1a)
             Q-M3 - Native American (Q1a2a1a1)
          Q-L804 - Scandanavian, British & French (Q1a2a1a2)
  Q-CTS1780 - Native American, Polish & German (Q1a2a1b)

Sources
https://i0.wp.com/dna-explained.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ftdna-2014-q-tree.png?ssl=1

  Big Y DNA Results Divide and Unite Haplogroup Q Native Americans
https://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/
 

Q-L804 appears to be the Huns - Siberian descendants not Amerindian descendants.

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