RICO Act, Proposed Class Action against the Church - it is filed

[Amulek]

As a follow-up, my family was actually assigned to help clean the building this weekend.

I signed up for a bathroom, and my 13 year old daughter and 8 year old son signed up to take care of the entryways (i.e., vacuum mats and clean windows).

I also made use of my (physical) keys to ensure that all of the clerk and bishop offices in the building got taken care of as well - something that often gets overlooked.

Oh, and I got to help toss an old, gross couch into the dumpster. It wasn't the church's or anything; somebody just threw it behind our bin in the parking lot, but the city won't take it unless it's actually in the bin. So, up and over it went. No big deal.

On the car ride home, I said, "Thanks for coming to help this morning. You both did a really good job." 

To which my daughter replied, "It's nice to start the day doing service. Oh! And I get to go to the temple this afternoon and do some more service. This is going to be a good day." 

Indeed.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

35 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I also made use of my (physical) keys to ensure that all of the clerk and bishop offices in the building got taken care of as well - something that often gets overlooked.

Just wanted to take the opportunity to beg you to move to my ward.

[smac97]

On 9/27/2019 at 3:29 PM, changed said:

I think all non-profits, including religious non-profits, should be required to be 100% transparent about all the finances.

What does "100% transparent about all the finances" mean?

There is a pretty good blog entry on this topic (written by an accountant): The Folly of LDS Church Financial Transparency.  Some excerpts:

Quote

Financial Statements are a snapshot into the financial health of a business or organization, designed to allow stakeholders (i.e. a person who has a stake in a business. Not like “Stake Boundary” stake, more like “interest” stake) to determine, on a macro level, the well being of the company.

...

Keep in mind that financial statements are at a painfully high level. Ask any auditor and they’ll tell you the same thing until they’re blue in the face. It doesn’t tell most of the transactions. It’s not a blueprint on how to run a company. It’s not designed to detect fraud. Although our accounting overlords continually add new rules to try to prevent the next Enron or WorldCom, neither a thorough, expensive audit nor the resulting financial statements are a guarantee to that.

...

Okay, so you now know, or can at least pretend to know, what a financial statement is. Here’s where I’m having problems: what would publicly releasing the LDS Church’s financial statements accomplish?

Before you answer that, want to see what you’ll be getting? I found the financial statements for the Episcopal Church, which happened to be put together by my former employer. Go ahead, read through the 2013 report.

So what did you learn? I learned that the Episcopal Church is financially sound right now. And…that’s about it.

How much do they donate to the poor? How much to give in foreign relief? How much do they use on buildings? I have absolutely no idea. The best we get is this scant breakout here:



What do they consider to be “Canonical and missional programs”? Is “General convention” a euphemism for the priests heading to ComiCon on the church’s dime? And what’s with this “other” amount grouped in with Grants?

In other words, we’re almost exactly where we started. We know how much money they brought in and how much money went out, but they grouped their expenses based on arbitrary categorizations invented by whichever accountant implemented Quickbooks for them.

Unfortunately, their grouping totally fails for me, because those Episcopal financials don’t allow me to voyeuristicly understand how they use their money. Heck, it doesn’t even tell me how much they spent on Communion Crackers!

For them, though, it works. Their goal was likely to prove that they are spending less than they make, and on that point, mission accomplished.

If we were to get public financial statements for the LDS Church, this is about as good as we could expect. Want proof? Turns out the LDS Church has financial statements in the UK (required by UK law). And considering that I haven’t heard a single person mention how great it is that the Church practices financial transparency overseas, I’m guessing the number of people demanding US financial statements that know about the UK financials are in the single digits.

Hence my suspicion that calls for further "Financial Transparency" would be followed, endlessly, by more calls for "Financial Transparency."  Because the objective of the critics is digging for dirt, that's about it.

More from the blog:

Quote

Okay, so you’re not an accountant, and you’re not interested in stuffy financial statements made up by overweight accountants with little green visors and even smaller personalities. You just want more transparency.

But why?

What are you going to do with that information? Do you honestly believe that knowing how much the LDS Church depreciates the Salt Lake City Temple renovations every year will convince you that what goes on inside is sacred? Will seeing how much the LDS Church sends to Africa in financial aide have one bit of bearing on whether Joseph Smith talked with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the Sacred Grove? Does the amount spent on basketballs each year have any relevance on whether or not the Book of Mormon is true?

Look, I really don’t mean to come across as harsh, I just fail to see how financial ledgers, no matter how detailed or how summarized, matter. Either the Church is true, or it’s not. I believe that it is. Yes, it’s absolutely run by imperfect people, and they will make financial mistakes. But like Tomas at the beginning of this post so wisely told me, if they screw up, it’s on them.

I think these are fair questions for you.  What do you propose to do with the further-disclosed information about the Church's finances?

And more (emphasis added):

Quote

The thing is, I get what many people are trying to say. It’s easy to look around the world and see all the suffering, then look at the (non-released) financial situation of the LDS Church and think, “surely we can do better.”

Whether we can or can’t, I really don’t know. As individual members of the Church and followers of Jesus Christ, especially ones living in the wealthiest country in the world (or wherever you are on that list if you’re not in the the US), absolutely. I throw myself into that bucket for sure. All of us can get a little caught up in what should be considered a “want” and what should be considered a “need,” forgetting that the amount we spend on those alleged needs could be better served helping those with real needs.

But can the actual organization, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better allocate it’s resources to give more to the poor?

The LDS Church recently included “caring for the poor” among their missions, bringing the total missions to four. I don’t think I’m breaking new ground by saying that this new mission takes money. What about the other three? Proclaiming the Gospel, Perfecting the Saints, Redeeming the Dead? All of them take money, too.

Could we ask missionaries to pay a bit more to cover the expenses related to the mission? Maybe, but for many what’s being asked is already a huge burden.

Could we worship in buildings that aren’t quite as nice? Perhaps, but most of the newer buildings are pretty utilitarian, even reusing the same architecture plans to save on costs.

Could we make our temples look a little less nice? On this one, I think not. The new, smaller temples already have several changes to help cut back on expenses, but we can only go so far.

...

So, what, then, would transparent financial statements be used for? I suspect the only use would be for people with 1/1000ths of the information as those making financial decisions to loudly proclaim that the LDS Church isn’t making the right decisions. Kind of like Monday Morning Quarterbacking after watching about 3 plays of the game.

Yep.  I think that's the endgame intended by critics demanding for more "transparency."

And one more bit:

Quote

I don’t believe the LDS Church is hiding some great financial secret: there’s too many accountants at the LDS Church, including some who have turned against the Church, for unethical dealings to not have been leaked by now. Enron had a much shorter life than the LDS Church, and it was dismantled by someone on the inside, not someone reading financial statements. Considering that Enron was stocked full of self interested employees, not people who grew up believing that their organization should be held to a higher standard than everything else, serious Church financial wrong doing would have come out by now.

At best, if we had transparency, you’d get a small group of people complaining that the LDS Church is wrong because it does their finances differently than they would do it, while everyone else would get bored before scrolling to the end of the released PDF.

Going back to the cost, that sounds like a pretty low benefit to justify virtually any expense.

If the LDS Church does one day release their finances, so be it. In the meantime, there are much better causes to dedicate our time to. May I suggest helping the poor instead of complaining that the Church isn’t helping them enough?

Well said.

On 9/27/2019 at 3:29 PM, changed said:

Anyone who is not transparent with financial information is hiding something.

Poppycock.

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

On 9/27/2019 at 3:29 PM, changed said:

I think all non-profits, including religious non-profits, should be required to be 100% transparent about all the finances.

 

[...] calls for further "Financial Transparency" would be followed, endlessly, by more calls for "Financial Transparency."  Because the objective of the critics is digging for dirt, that's about it.

Let's test that out.

Hey @Changed, here is a link to the Church's 100% financial transparency document about all the finances for all of Great Britain.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends51/0000242451_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

All good for Great Britain?

Edited September 30, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Let's test that out.

Hey @Changed, here is a link to the Church's 100% financial transparency document about all the finances for all of Great Britain.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends51/0000242451_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

All good for Great Britain?

What!?  There is no breakdown of the reported annual operational costs for church buildings!  Just a lump sum.  What is the Church hiding?

Only a lump sum for the 2017 missionary efforts.  What is the Church hiding?

It only provides highlights of "Community Outreach and Interfaith Outreach" efforts.  There is no complete list.  What is the Church hiding?

It only provides a lump sum for "Meetinghouse Addition Projects" for buildings in Catford, Chester, Inverness, Lincoln, Peterborough."  How much did the Church spend on drywall for the addition to the Inverness building?  How much did the Church spend on roofing materials for the building in Chester?  What is the Church hiding?

😁

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

42 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Let's test that out.

Hey @Changed, here is a link to the Church's 100% financial transparency document about all the finances for all of Great Britain.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends51/0000242451_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

All good for Great Britain?

Only a very experienced tax accountant could tell you that.  

[Stargazer]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:39 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

You seem to move in circles where the consensus is that General Authorities live "high on the hog" (my phrase) while breaking the backs of average, every-day, run-of-the-mill members.  One of my bishops was Elder Albert Choules Jr., formerly of the Second Quorum of the Seventy.  He was a pretty humble guy: I don't recall anything with respect to building cleaning specifically, but, generally, my recollection of him is that if something needed doing, he pitched in and did it right along with the other members of the ward.

I don't know (m)any General Authorities, and I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd bet that they'd be overjoyed at the mundane prospect of cleaning a building as opposed to performing some of the other tasks placed upon their shoulders.  

I think if I had a choice between cleaning a building and presiding at a disciplinary council I would pick the building every time.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I think if I had a choice between cleaning a building and presiding at a disciplinary council I would pick the building every time.

Amen to that!

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

What does "100% transparent about all the finances" mean?

There is a pretty good blog entry on this topic (written by an accountant): The Folly of LDS Church Financial Transparency.  Some excerpts:

Hence my suspicion that calls for further "Financial Transparency" would be followed, endlessly, by more calls for "Financial Transparency."  Because the objective of the critics is digging for dirt, that's about it.

More from the blog:

I think these are fair questions for you.  What do you propose to do with the further-disclosed information about the Church's finances?

And more (emphasis added):

Yep.  I think that's the endgame intended by critics demanding for more "transparency."

And one more bit:

Well said.

Poppycock.

Thanks,

-Smac

I've stopped caring what "changed" thinks about the Church.  Wrong was done to her, seriously bad wrong, and she now looks through a glass, very darkly.  I don't blame her for her feelings, I'm not walking in her shoes, after all, but what she is doing to herself is the true evil.  When one cannot see the good when good predominates, and all there is to see is the wrong that is actually quite rare, then one is seriously blind.  And with such dark glasses, how can one see the truth?

Edited October 1, 2019 by Stargazer

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I've stopped caring what "changed" thinks about the Church.  Wrong was done to her, seriously bad wrong, and she now looks through a glass, very darkly.  I don't blame her for her feelings, I'm not walking in her shoes, after all, but what she is doing to herself is the true evil.  When one cannot see the good when good predominates, and all there is to see is the wrong that is actually quite rare, then one is seriously blind.  And with such dark glasses, how can one see the truth?

To the bold, that is just plain wrong. Those are fighting words to me.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

To the bold, that is just plain wrong. Those are fighting words to me.

What is this, broadswords at dawn?

You're entitled to disagree.  But I believe she is blinded by what happened to her, and though I surely appreciate that what happened is a huge burden, I believe that she is doing herself a great disservice.  For she sees evil everywhere, even where it doesn't exist, and refuses to see that what happened to her was an outlier, a very evil outlier, yes, but an outlier nevertheless.  She cannot see the good that is genuinely inherent in the Church, and this blindness will not lead her to peace.  This is my assessment, at any rate.  Every post she makes reinforces this to me.  But I do wish her peace.  I just don't think she will find it in the route she is taking.

I wrote:

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

...but what she is doing to herself is the true evil

This angers you?  I know you do not believe that the LDS Church is what it claims to be, so perhaps your anger is reasonable.  But what if the Church is what it claims?  Then fighting against the Church may lead to one's eternal destruction, which is evil.  So she would be doing it to herself. 

But the greater condemnation is for those who did the evil, and those who refused to come to her aid in the matter; I am certain that they will face bitter fruits from what they did that they shouldn't have done, and what they should have done and didn't do.  And in time they will have to face the fire of their guilt.  I expect that in the end the Lord will judge changed mercifully.  For who can face such wickedness and come away unscathed?

In Alma 39 we read about how Alma's son Corianton was responsible for the failure of the missionary efforts among the Zoramites:

11 Suffer not yourself to be led away by any vain or foolish thing; suffer not the devil to lead away your heart again after those wicked harlots. Behold, O my son, how great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites; for when they saw your conduct they would not believe in my words.
12 And now the Spirit of the Lord doth say unto me: Command thy children to do good, lest they lead away the hearts of many people to destruction; therefore I command you, my son, in the fear of God, that ye refrain from your iniquities;

It says that Corianton, by his conduct, led away the hearts of many people to destruction.  Yet it needn't have been the case for all of them.  Perhaps some of them saw past Corianton's misconduct to the truth of the message that was being given to them. Perhaps in time, when changed's heart has softened, she will be comforted by the Spirit sufficiently to see past what was done to her by those who should have known better -- and recognize that it was fallible men who did it unto her, not the Lord.  

[Kenngo1969]

On 9/30/2019 at 12:35 PM, smac97 said:

What!?  There is no breakdown of the reported annual operational costs for church buildings!  Just a lump sum.  What is the Church hiding?

Only a lump sum for the 2017 missionary efforts.  What is the Church hiding?

It only provides highlights of "Community Outreach and Interfaith Outreach" efforts.  There is no complete list.  What is the Church hiding?

It only provides a lump sum for "Meetinghouse Addition Projects" for buildings in Catford, Chester, Inverness, Lincoln, Peterborough."  How much did the Church spend on drywall for the addition to the Inverness building?  How much did the Church spend on roofing materials for the building in Chester?  What is the Church hiding?

😁

Thanks,

-Smac

Ah, well.  Perhaps FearlessFixxxxxxer will tell us.  

[Stargazer]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:44 PM, Tacenda said:

On 10/1/2019 at 3:31 PM, Stargazer said:

I'm not walking in her shoes, after all, but what she is doing to herself is the true evil.  

To the bold, that is just plain wrong. Those are fighting words to me.

I am going to take this a little bit further.  Perhaps explain better where I am coming from.

In a recent issue of BYU Studies Quarterly, there is an article talking about the 1863 Bear River Massacre, where a band of the Shoshone Indians was nearly wiped out by US Army soldiers.  Without getting into the gory details (you can Google this if you want), there were few left of the band, including only one of the chiefs, Sagwitch.  He had plenty of reason to hate whites, the Army and even the Mormons.  The Church wasn't directly involved, but the conduct of some Church members left a lot to be desired.  Yet, ten years later, something miraculous happened. 

"...in the winter of 1873. Native American leaders began to have dreams and other spiritual manifestations. One night, Chief Sagwitch was visited in a dream by three men who told him of the existence of a god who existed among the Saints. He was told that their god was the only true god, and he must send for men who would tell them what they must do. The next day, Sagwitch traveled to Ogden, Utah, to meet with his friend George Washington Hill. Hill had served a mission to the Lemhi Shoshone, in central Idaho, some seventeen years earlier and was skilled with the language. Hill told Sagwitch that there was order in the Lord’s church and that he was no longer called to be a missionary. This same exchange took place for the next two days. 

"A week later, George Washington Hill was called to the office of Brigham Young, who told Hill that he had a great burden upon his shoulders, and it was now about to be Hill’s. The prophet then called him to once again be a missionary to the Shoshone people. As Hill arrived home that evening, there sitting on his porch was Chief Sagwitch. He told the old chief that he was once again given the power to preach and that he would now come and teach them the gospel of Jesus Christ. He told Sagwitch to give him a few weeks to get his affairs in order and he would then come."

To make a long story short, nearly every member of the tribe joined the Church.  They established a community, which they occupy still, and compared to some native american tribes who live on reservations with multitudinous problems, they have mostly assimilated into the national culture, while remaining one people. And are by all accounts very successful.

What would have happened if Sagwitch and his people had held an implacable grudge, and rejected what they later accepted? -- surely justifiable from a certain point of view.  

The point is, if the Church is true, what else matters?  And if it is true, then doesn't fighting it constitute cutting off one's own nose to spite own's face?

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I am going to take this a little bit further.  Perhaps explain better where I am coming from.

In a recent issue of BYU Studies Quarterly, there is an article talking about the 1863 Bear River Massacre, where a band of the Shoshone Indians was nearly wiped out by US Army soldiers.  Without getting into the gory details (you can Google this if you want), there were few left of the band, including only one of the chiefs, Sagwitch.  He had plenty of reason to hate whites, the Army and even the Mormons.  The Church wasn't directly involved, but the conduct of some Church members left a lot to be desired.  Yet, ten years later, something miraculous happened. 

"...in the winter of 1873. Native American leaders began to have dreams and other spiritual manifestations. One night, Chief Sagwitch was visited in a dream by three men who told him of the existence of a god who existed among the Saints. He was told that their god was the only true god, and he must send for men who would tell them what they must do. The next day, Sagwitch traveled to Ogden, Utah, to meet with his friend George Washington Hill. Hill had served a mission to the Lemhi Shoshone, in central Idaho, some seventeen years earlier and was skilled with the language. Hill told Sagwitch that there was order in the Lord’s church and that he was no longer called to be a missionary. This same exchange took place for the next two days. 

"A week later, George Washington Hill was called to the office of Brigham Young, who told Hill that he had a great burden upon his shoulders, and it was now about to be Hill’s. The prophet then called him to once again be a missionary to the Shoshone people. As Hill arrived home that evening, there sitting on his porch was Chief Sagwitch. He told the old chief that he was once again given the power to preach and that he would now come and teach them the gospel of Jesus Christ. He told Sagwitch to give him a few weeks to get his affairs in order and he would then come."

To make a long story short, nearly every member of the tribe joined the Church.  They established a community, which they occupy still, and compared to some native american tribes who live on reservations with multitudinous problems, they have mostly assimilated into the national culture, while remaining one people. And are by all accounts very successful.

What would have happened if Sagwitch and his people had held an implacable grudge, and rejected what they later accepted? -- surely justifiable from a certain point of view.  

The point is, if the Church is true, what else matters?  And if it is true, then doesn't fighting it constitute cutting off one's own nose to spite own's face?

Thanks for the story, but I clicked on the highlighted reference and it didn't work. Do you have the precise link? I'd love to read and follow up on this. 

Also, is there a way to say it and not use a word like "evil" being done?   

[ttribe]

On 9/30/2019 at 11:46 AM, JAHS said:

Only a very experienced tax accountant could tell you that.  

Actually, that report has little or nothing to do with taxes.  Having been an auditor for part of my career, and a forensic accountant for most of my career, I can say this based on a cursory review of the linked report:  the auditors - Grant Thornton - are a reputable firm, on the whole, and they expressed an opinion stating that the financial statements are properly stated under UK GAAP, that there is no evidence to indicate that the organization is in any immediate danger (read, within one year) of being unable to meet its financial obligations, and that there are no inconsistencies between the financial statements and any of the representations and disclosures in the attached report.  I've made no attempt to analyze or evaluate the reasonableness of the expenditures, but the auditors found nothing to indicate fraud or material error in the accounting.  One notable item is that despite a relatively significant increase in operating and repairs and maintenance expenses on the buildings, the overall revenue (e.g. tithing and other donations) appear to have been relatively stagnant.  That could be a problem in the long term if the increase in expenses continues to outpace any increases in revenue/donations.

Edited October 2, 2019 by ttribe

[rodheadlee]

Cleaning toilets teaches you humility.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Cleaning toilets teaches you humility.

I find cleaning anything can be a teaching experience. At a minimum, it has taught me how to better care for things. And I find cleaning the Lord's house to be an act of worship.

[changed]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:03 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Let's test that out.

Hey @Changed, here is a link to the Church's 100% financial transparency document about all the finances for all of Great Britain.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends51/0000242451_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

All good for Great Britain?

Do you have a link for America? For all of it?  

[changed]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:00 AM, smac97 said:

What does "100% transparent about all the finances" mean?

There is a pretty good blog entry on this topic (written by an accountant): The Folly of LDS Church Financial Transparency.  Some excerpts:

Hence my suspicion that calls for further "Financial Transparency" would be followed, endlessly, by more calls for "Financial Transparency."  Because the objective of the critics is digging for dirt, that's about it.

More from the blog:

I think these are fair questions for you.  What do you propose to do with the further-disclosed information about the Church's finances?

And more (emphasis added):

Yep.  I think that's the endgame intended by critics demanding for more "transparency."

And one more bit:

Well said.

Poppycock.

Thanks,

-Smac

Let's see a list of homeless shelters owned and operated by the church.  How about a list of hospitals owned and operated by the church.  ... I know of malls that are owned, of great and spacious buildings owned by the church...

 

 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

Do you have a link for America? For all of it?  

It doesn't exist.

[changed]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It doesn't exist.

I know...

 

These are the corporations that I know of or could find. Add more if you know more! Deseret Management Corporation - http://www.deseretmanagement.com/ Beneficial Financial Group - http://www.beneficialfinancialgroup.com/ Bonneville International - http://www.bonnint.com/ Bonneville Communications - http://www.bonneville.com/ Bonneville Interactive Services Bonneville Satellite - http://www.bonnevillesatellite.com/ 35 Radio Stations 1 Television Station (KSL) Deseret Book - http://deseretbook.com/ Excel Entertainment - http://www.xelent.com/ Deseret Morning News - http://deseretnews.com/dn Hawaii Reserves - http://www.hawaiireserves.com/ Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC) - http://www.polynesia.com/ and http://www.polynesia.co.jp/ La'ie Shopping Center La'ie Park La'ie Cemetary Hukilau Beach Park La'ie Water Company La'ie Treatment Works (sewer) Mstar.net - http://www.mstar.net/preportal/index.asp Temple Square Hospitality - http://www.htsc.net/ and http://www.hoteltsc.com/ Weddings (JSMB and Lion House) The Inn at Temple Square - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/ Lion House Pantry - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/ The Roof Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/ The Garden Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/ Passages Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/ Zions Securities Corporation - http://www.zsc.com/ Farm Management Corporation (commericial farms and agricultural properties) Deseret Land and Livestock 200,000 acres of land in Rich, Morgan and Weber counties (Utah) Sun Ranch (Martin's Cove) Deseret Ranches of Florida (Orlando) (largest ranch in Florida) Deseret Farms of California Rolling Hills (Idaho) West Hills Orchards (Elberta, Utah) Cactus Lane Ranch (Arizona) (more) Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CPB) Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Deseret Trust Company LDS Family Services Property Reserves Inc. (PRI) Ensign Peak Advisors - http://www.imno.org/articles.asp?qid=123 Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA) - http://www.dmba.com/ Brigham Young University (BYU) - http://home.byu.edu/webapp/home/index.jsp BYU - Idaho - http://www.byui.edu/ BYU - Hawaii - http://www.byuh.edu/index.jsp LDS Business College - http://www.ldsbc.edu/

 

Subject:	It used to be MUCH worse... A must read!!
Date:	Jul 22 16:47
Author:	Deconstructor

---

I thought you might find interesting this transcript of the US Senate Committee case regarding Mormon Senator Reed Smoot. Where did Mormon Church President Smith find time for meditation, let alone revelation? Senate Committee Testimony Transcript: Mr. Tayler (Senate Attorney):What is your business? Mr. Smith (Mormon Prophet and President): My principle business is that of president of the church. Mr. Tayler: In what other business are you engaged? Mr. Smith: I am engaged in NUMEROUS other businesses. Mr. Tayler: What? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution. Mr. Tayler: Of what other corporations are you an officer? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the State Bank of Utah, another institution. Mr. Tayler: What else? Mr. Smith: PRESIDENT of Zion's Savings Bank and Trust Company. Mr. Tayler: What else? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Utah Sugar Company. Mr. Tayler: What else? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Consolidated Wagon and Machine Company. Mr. Tayler: What else? Mr. Smith: There are several other SMALL INSTITUTIONS with which I am associated. Mr. Tayler: Are you associated with the Utah Light and Power Company? Mr. Smith: I am. Mr. Tayler: In what capacity? Mr. Smith: I am a director and PRESIDENT of the company. Mr. Tayler: A director and the president? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Tayler: Had you that in mind when you classified the others as 'small concerns'? Mr. Smith: No sir, I had not that in mind. Mr. Tayler: That is a 'large concern'? Mr. Smith: That is a large concern? Mr. Tayler: Are you an officer of the Salt Lake and Los Angeles Railroad Company? Mr. Smith: I am. Mr. Tayler: What? Mr. Smith: PRESIDENT and director. Mr. Tayler: Of what else are you President? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Salt Air Beach Company. Mr. Tayler: What else, if you can recall. Mr. Smith: I DO NOT RECALL JUST NOW! Mr. Tayler: What relation do you sustain to the Idaho Sugar Company? Mr. Smith: I am a director of that company and also the PRESIDENT of it. Mr. Tayler: Of the Inland Crystal Salt Company? Mr. Smith: Also the SAME POSITION THERE. Mr. Tayler: The Salt Lake Dramatic Association? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of that and also a DIRECTOR. Mr. Tayler: Are you president of any other corporation there? Mr. Smith: I DO NOT KNOW. PERHAPS YOU CAN TELL ME!! I DO NOT REMEMBER ANY MORE JUST NOW! Mr. Tayler: It would seem that the number has grown so large that it would be an undue tax upon your memory to charge you with naming them all. Mr. Smith: What relation do you sustain to the Salt Lake Knitting Company? Did I already ask you about it? Mr. Smith: No sir, you did not. Mr. Tayler: The Salt Lake Knitting Company? Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of it, and also a director. Mr. Tayler: The Union Pacific Railway Company? Mr. Smith: I am a DIRECTOR. Mr. Tayler: Are you an official of any mining companies? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Tayler: What? Mr. Smith: I am the vice-president of the Bullion, Beck and Champion Mining Company. Mr. Tayler: The Deseret News? Mr. Smith: No, sir. Mr. Tayler: You have no business relations with that? Mr. Smith: NO SIR. Mr. Tayler: Is the Deseret News the 'organ of the Church'? Mr. Smith: Well, I suppose it is in some sense the 'organ of the church'. It is not opposed to the church, at least. Mr. Tayler: It has for years published, has it not, at the head of its columns, that it is "the organ of the church", or the "official organ of the church"? Mr. Smith: Not that I know of. Mr. Tayler: Do you know who owns it? Mr. Smith: How is that? Mr. Tayler: Do you know who owns it? Mr. Smith: I know who owns the building that it is in. Mr. Tayler: Who owns the building in which it is published? Mr. Smith: The church. Mr. Tayler: The church? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Tayler: Tell us what you know about the owners of that newspaper. Mr. Smith: It has been for a number of years past owned by a company --- AN INCORPORATED COMPANY. Mr. Tayler: What is the name of the company? Mr. Smith: The Deseret News Publishing Company. Mr. Tayler: Do you know who its officers are? Mr. Smith: No, it is not owned by that company. Mr. Tayler: Oh, it is not? Mr. Smith: No; it is not. Mr. Tayler: What do you know ---- Mr. Smith: But I say for years it was owned by a company of that kind. Mr. Tayler: What do you know about its present ownership? Mr. Smith: I presume that the present ownership is IN THE CHURCH. Mr. Tayler: You suppose the present owner is 'the church'? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir; the church. Mr. Tayler: I do not want to have any misconstruction put upon your use of the word 'presume' because you do not know that it is so owned? Mr. Smith: I really do not know so that I could tell you positively. Mr. Tayler: Who would know? Mr. Smith: I PRESUME I could find out. Mr. Tayler: Could you find out before you leave Washington? Mr. Smith: Perhaps so. (SOURCE: Reed Smoot Case transcript, Vol. 1, pp. 81, 82, 83, 86, 87, and 88) A day later, because the ownership of the Deseret News and its articles were keys to the case, Joseph F. Smith testified: Mr. Tayler: In what form does your church have title to the Deseret News property? Mr. Smith: It owns the deed. Mr. Tayler: I am speaking of the newspaper, not the building. Mr. Smith: The press; yes. I would like to state that when I was asked that question before, Mr. Tayler, I was not aware of the fact that I have since learned from my counsel here that during the trusteeship of Lorenzo Snow the Deseret News plant was transferred from the Deseret News Company to Lorenzo Snow, trustee, in trust. I was not aware of the fact, Mr. Chairman, when that question was asked me yesterday, I believe it was. I have since learned that that is the fact and that my counsel who is here made out the papers for the transfer. ..... Mr. Tayler: So that it is now in YOU as trustee in trust? Mr. Smith: NOW I OWN IT AS TRUSTEE IN TRUST. Furthermore, I will say that I have discovered since yesterday that there is published on the second or third page of the Deseret News the statement that it is the "organ of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" (Reed Smoot case, Vol. 1, page 158). As you can see, the Mormon Church has been about business for a very long time

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, changed said:

I know...

I hope this is merely the proverbial tip of the iceberg! I love getting a glimpse of the Church's wise stewardship of my consecrated contributions, and I revel in the fact that in my short lifetime, we've gone from struggling to build chapels to being able to build pretty much whatever the Saints need, to take just one example. Wonderful.

[changed]

27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I hope this is merely the proverbial tip of the iceberg! I love getting a glimpse of the Church's wise stewardship of my consecrated contributions, and I revel in the fact that in my short lifetime, we've gone from struggling to build chapels to being able to build pretty much whatever the Saints need, to take just one example. Wonderful.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me that I'm glad the Church has the capacity to protect the environs of the Lord's temples. I wish it had that power everywhere His temples are located around the world!

[changed]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me that I'm glad the Church has the capacity to protect the environs of the Lord's temples. I wish it had that power everywhere His temples are located around the world!

Luke 11:42-44.