What is the DEAL w/ Denver Snuffer?

[smac97]

On 8/15/2019 at 3:30 PM, boo said:

I have 2 brief comments. He was not excommunicated for teaching false doctrine or "leading people astray".

Actually, I think he was excommunicated for these things (specifically, for refusing to stop).

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He was never accused of this until after he was excommunicated.

I'm not sure you are correct about that.

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Deseret Books use to carry his books.

Which is not a necessary guranty of sound doctrine.  I think Deseret Book probably does their best, but...

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He was excommunicated because his SP through Elder Nelson

CFR, please.  What evidence do you have that Elder Nelson was involved in the disciplinary proceedings against Denver Snuffer?

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demanded that he withdraw the book that he had under a publishing contract ( ie breach his contract with his publisher )

It was my understanding that Passing the Heavenly Gift was self-published.  Is that incorrect?  "Mill Creek Press" is referenced in the book, but I has assumed it was a vanity imprint.  So with whom does he have these "contracts?"  What is this "publishing agreement" which compels him to continue publishing the book?

In any event, I don't see "But I have a contract!" as a valid defense to a charge of apostasy.  The main point was not about the publishing contract for the book, but rather the content of the book.

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and cancel hid proposed series of talks (which hadn't happened ).

Yes, they hadn't happened yet.  So he could have canceled them.  He didn't.

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He told them he couldn't breach his book publishing deal and he refuse to recognize their right to control what he said and when.

And the Church has the right to withdraw fellowship from Mr. Snuffer for behavior that is incompatible with membership in the Church.

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In particular since he says Christ had directed him to offer the 10 talks series which he characterized as a celebration of his 40 years in Mormonism.

"He says" being the operative phrase, I think.

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This wasn't about doctrine

Yes, it was.  And it was also about behavior.

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it was about control and the risk of exercising unrighteous dominion.

That risk is always there.  And the Church has, at times, erred in disciplinary matters (Helmut Huebner, and Avraham Gileadi being two examples).

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May be you are ok with your ecclesiastical authority telling you when you can talk (even before he knows what you are going to say )

Actually, I am quite okay with that.  My relationship with the Church is a voluntary thing.  In the main, I voluntarily submit to the jurisdiction of my priesthood leaders.  I think leaders telling the members what they cannot say is generally a rare thing.  And when it happens, it's usually about things being said that are potentially incompatible with continuing membership in the Church.

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and commanding you to breach your legal contracts upon pain of excommunication

Meh.  I'm reasonably confident there was a workaround available to Mr. Snuffer.  

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but i am deeply troubled by the very idea of someone using his priesthood authority to control my thoughts and actions. So was Joseph . See D and C 122,122

Joseph excommunicated a number of people for apostasy.  

A few more thoughts:

First, I think there is a fairly significant difference between "holding" and "teaching" a belief about a point of doctrine.

Second, not all heterodox viewpoints are created equal. Some points of doctrine are open to some fairly broad interpretation. Latter-day Saints hold all sorts of viewpoints about things like the scope of Noah's flood, evolution, and so on. I think it's hard to claim there are orthodox/heterodox positions about such things, largely because we presently lack sufficient light and knowledge to be able to definitively state the scope of the flood, or the role (or lack thereof) of evolution in the creative process and/or the development of man, and so on.

Third, notwithstanding point no. 2 above, there are some beliefs, as publicly taught to others, that are susceptible to testability and being found incompatible with maintaining good standing in the Church.  The Restored Gospel allows us a fair amount of flexibility of belief and conduct, but that flexibility is not unlimited. For example, Amasa Lyman, a prominent early leader of the Church, was excommunicated for repeatedly giving sermons "which all but denied the reality of and the necessity for the atonement of Jesus Christ" and for his association with apostates (Godbeites).  So to your question about whether a person can be excommunicated for, as you put it, "openly holding or teaching heterodox views," the answer in Amasa Lyman's case was clearly "yes." I suppose we can now say the same about Denver Snuffer and John Dehlin.

Fourth, we are repeatedly commanded to not preach or accept false doctrine:

• Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you: Deut. 4:2 . ( Deut. 12:32 ; Prov. 30:6 ; Rev. 22:18–19 . )
• How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood? Job 21:34.
• Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad.  Ezek. 13:22.
• If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.  Gal. 1:9.
• But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.  2 Pet. 2:1.
• Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.  2 Nephi 28:9.
• Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.  2 Nephi 28:12.
• And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ. And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ.  Jac. 7:2.
• Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.  Alma 1:16.
• That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.  Eph. 4:14.

Fifth, the preaching of false doctrine is not a whoopsy daisy.  If continued in defiance of priesthood counsel, it amounts to apostasy.

Sixth, to the extent "holding or teaching heterodox views" = preaching of false doctrine in continued defiance of priesthood counsel, that amounts to apostasy and requires disciplinary action.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 10, 2019 by smac97

[Lemuel]

13 hours ago, Judd said:

I do find it amazing that in its 200 year history, this was the event the Lord used to withdraw the priesthood authority from the church.

I suppose that if God sent a messenger to the LDS leaders and the leaders cast him out, that would be a bad thing for the leaders.  The initial premise of God sending a messenger to the leaders is open for debate though.

[Lemuel]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

He was told to stop publishing the book because it taught false doctrine. If it didnt no one would have cared. You cant claim false doctrine had nothing to do with it when that was the central issue with the book. 

I think the core problem was criticizing the leaders more than teaching false doctrine.

[Lemuel]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

CFR, please.  What evidence do you have that Elder Nelson was involved in the disciplinary proceedings against Denver Snuffer?

 

https://denversnuffer.com/2014/06/the-facts/

The only evidence is Snuffer's word.  Take it however you will.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

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He was excommunicated because his SP through Elder Nelson demanded that he withdraw the book 

CFR, please.  What evidence do you have that Elder Nelson was involved in the disciplinary proceedings against Denver Snuffer?

https://denversnuffer.com/2014/06/the-facts/

The only evidence is Snuffer's word.  Take it however you will.

Guesswork and innuendo.  Not even Mr. Snuffer substantiates what boo alleges (that Snuffer's "SP through Elder Nelson demanded...").

Thanks,

-Smac

[Lemuel]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Guesswork and innuendo.  Not even Mr. Snuffer substantiates what boo alleges (that Snuffer's "SP through Elder Nelson demanded...").

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac-- You're a SLC lawyer, right?  I'm curious how Snuffer is regarded in the legal community.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Smac-- You're a SLC lawyer, right?  I'm curious how Snuffer is regarded in the legal community.

I've never encountered him, nor have I heard anything about his skills as a lawyer, either good or bad.  He's a named partner in a small (7-attorney) law firm.  He's been sued three times for legal malpractice, though none ended up with a judgment against him.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SettingDogStar]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I've never encountered him, nor have I heard anything about his skills as a lawyer, either good or bad.  He's a named partner in a small (7-attorney) law firm.  He's been sued three times for legal malpractice, though none ended up with a judgment against him.

Thanks,

-Smac

Is that a common thing for a law firm, or no?

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Is that a common thing for a law firm, or no?

I assume you are referencing legal malpractice?  I can't really say, but anecdotally I would say that it is fairly rare to be sued for legal malpractice.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I assume you are referencing legal malpractice?  I can't really say, but anecdotally I would say that it is fairly rare to be sued for legal malpractice.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I suppose if he wasn't found guilty then that means they most likely didn't have enough evidence and thus Denver would not have actually performed any malpractice. However, it is an interesting note. Not that prison time, mistakes, or lawsuits should immediately disqualify anyone, since plenty of prophets have had that happen.

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I suppose if he wasn't found guilty then that means they most likely didn't have enough evidence and thus Denver would not have actually performed any malpractice.

Or it could be that the plaintiffs did have sufficient evidence, but then the parties settled instead of going to trial.

Or it could be that the plaintiffs did have sufficient evidence, but the plaintiffs ran out of money to pay their lawyers, or lost interest in pursuing the suit (litigation is, or can be, very stressful), or had any of a number of reasons for choosing to not pursue the lawsuit to the very end.

We really can't read much of anything into these cases not going to trial.  

Three malpractice lawsuits against him is a bit odd.  However, Snuffer's law firm handles family law and personal injury cases.  My impression is that these types of cases tend to have a higher likelihood of a cranky client (the kind who would file a legal malpractice suit) as compared to other areas of law.  In the absence of meaningful information, I'm not really inclined to think of these cases evidence of, well, anything.

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

However, it is an interesting note. Not that prison time, mistakes, or lawsuits should immediately disqualify anyone, since plenty of prophets have had that happen.

True.  Mr. Snuffer's competency as a lawyer has little to do with his religious claims.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

Mill Creek Publishing...not much info on their website.  Here is the description of services:

”Mill Creek Publishing offers a variety of services including editing, cover design, formatting, pricing consulting, marketing and distribution.”

[Jake Starkey]

I have met and listened to Snuffer and came away unimpressed.

[jbarm]

One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

[SettingDogStar]

25 minutes ago, jbarm said:

One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

For all of my reading, listening, tuning into “snufferite” conferences (including the most recent and probably the next one), I have never ever heard Bryce’s name. He might be a friend of Denver’s but I don’t think there is any real level of endorsement there.

[Michael Sudworth]

On 7/13/2019 at 11:17 AM, caspianrex said:

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

Brother Snuffer, unfortunately, was excommunicated because he lost his faith in the keys held by the Prophet, his counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve.  As the years progress, he has become more comfortable placing himself in the prophetic role.  His claims have become more daring.

[alter idem]

14 hours ago, jbarm said:

One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

And, was it a gay bar??  I don't remember that.  I thought it was a dance club that took some damage.  I'd say his prediction about the the Temple was a bust, no doubt, he'll come up with some excuse for why it wasn't destroyed by a tornado, maybe say the Lord is giving the church 'more time'...that's a popular excuse.  I don't know of this Bryce Bartel either.  Is he a recent convert to the Remnant group?  I haven't been keeping up on what's going on with them for a while now, so maybe I missed reading about him.  There was an article or blog a couple of years back that was making the rounds among the remnant called 'Joseph fought polygamy' which is a reintroduction of the old RLDS claims that it was Brigham Young who was responsible  They go further, I believe and say he and other leaders were practicing it and Joseph tried to stop them and got killed because of it.  I read one claim that said Willard Richards shot Joseph (I think the guy claimed he saw it in a dream or vision???) and somehow the mob was accused.  I guess they were just innocently milling around outside the jail and ended up being blamed?

  I thought Denver Snuffer at one time accepted that Joseph was involved in it, but only for dynastic purposes?  Not sure, but that's what I recall from years ago, but now, I wonder if he's changed his position because this new revised non-history seems popular among some of his supporters.

[SettingDogStar]

53 minutes ago, alter idem said:

And, was it a gay bar??  I don't remember that.  I thought it was a dance club that took some damage.  I'd say his prediction about the the Temple was a bust, no doubt, he'll come up with some excuse for why it wasn't destroyed by a tornado, maybe say the Lord is giving the church 'more time'...that's a popular excuse.  I don't know of this Bryce Bartel either.  Is he a recent convert to the Remnant group?  I haven't been keeping up on what's going on with them for a while now, so maybe I missed reading about him.  There was an article or blog a couple of years back that was making the rounds among the remnant called 'Joseph fought polygamy' which is a reintroduction of the old RLDS claims that it was Brigham Young who was responsible  They go further, I believe and say he and other leaders were practicing it and Joseph tried to stop them and got killed because of it.  I read one claim that said Willard Richards shot Joseph (I think the guy claimed he saw it in a dream or vision???) and somehow the mob was accused.  I guess they were just innocently milling around outside the jail and ended up being blamed?

  I thought Denver Snuffer at one time accepted that Joseph was involved in it, but only for dynastic purposes?  Not sure, but that's what I recall from years ago, but now, I wonder if he's changed his position because this new revised non-history seems popular among some of his supporters.

No, you’re right about his stance. He does believe there were sealings, but no sexual consummation and that the sealings were for a different purpose then just to “collect wives.” No he does not believe Willard Richards shot Joseph, that was claim made in a different book not associated with the remnant.

Also the document making “the rounds” was labebeled Joseph’s Monogamy. It’s a summary of what you’d call old RLDS arguments, however the point of the Doc is to get the reader to investigate further. The best book that makes any kind of good arguement on the subject, and the one that most Remnant believers know of, is the Prices series titled “Joseph Fought Polygamy.” It’s a multi-volume series and, I believe, there are still volumes coming out investigating various eras in Joseph’s polygamy practices. They are RLDS, and this have a narrative to protect (don’t we all?), but they make a surprising good read and I do commend them for their work and commitment to their religion.

However, they are not associated with the Denver or the Remnant and thus not all claims they make are considered true, at all, by those “in the remnant.” (They basically discard sealings and endowments)

[jbarm]

Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

Edited September 10, 2019 by jbarm

[SettingDogStar]

2 hours ago, jbarm said:

Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

What I meant is that Denver doesn’t seem to endorse him, at least openly. Bryce might endorse Denver, or at least believe his claims.

[alter idem]

On 9/10/2019 at 5:14 PM, jbarm said:

Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

Interesting, thanks.  I did not know about this guy.  For some reason I thought it was Club DV8 that was damaged, thanks.  Snuffer seems to be a draw for certain members who lean toward fundamentalism in the church, except that they reject polygamy, which was not the case for earlier fundamentalists.

[PacMan]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:32 AM, Jake Starkey said:

I have met and listened to Snuffer and came away unimpressed.

I attended a legal CLE he presented. I was both unimpressed and came away with the impression that he thinks much about himself - unjustifiably so. I also think he came off as a bit quirky.

[Jake Starkey]

Yeah, I think he is a bit spacey. 

[Stang]

The 1999 SLC was a bigger event than some may know.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Salt_Lake_City_tornado

During which my wife was having an MRI at LDS hospital and the power was knocked out. My sister in law’s apartment in the avenues was partially destroyed while she huddled under her bed with her new born daughter. I watched it tear through SLC from my office.

As for any prophesy, that is simply delusional nonsense, like most.

 

[alter idem]

42 minutes ago, Stang said:

The 1999 SLC was a bigger event than some may know.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Salt_Lake_City_tornado

During which my wife was having an MRI at LDS hospital and the power was knocked out. My sister in law’s apartment in the avenues was partially destroyed while she huddled under her bed with her new born daughter. I watched it tear through SLC from my office.

As for any prophesy, that is simply delusional nonsense, like most.

 

I remember the sky turning a very ominous dark color and everything was so dark, even more so than some of our thunderstorms.  The storm that blew in was frightening.  I was not downtown though, so it was not as bad where I was.