Utah Ponzi Schemes

[Thinking]

In a Deseret News article, research showed that Utah has the highest per capita number of Ponzi schemes (1.35 per 100,000 people) than any other state. Florida was second (0.51 per 100,000 people).

The wolves are out there. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

[strappinglad]

I clicked on the article and a picture came up of downtown SLC. It took a while before I could pick out the Temple. Is that a metaphor? 

When was the last time this issue was addressed from the pulpit in GC ?? 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

When was the last time this issue was addressed from the pulpit in GC??

In 2012 Michael Otterson gave an address at the University of Utah, hardly the pulpit in GC, but still contains some good advice.

I also found this.

[Calm]

Also:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/affinity-fraud

includes a number of quotes over the years as well as thinking's article he linked to

Looks like most of the fraud info comes from that address

My tech doesn't get along with lds.org these days.  For one thing, it won't take me to other articles past the first page of search, so I can't find if there are other useful articles

google off a search on "investment fraud", ponzi, 

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1983/09/recognizing-and-avoiding-bad-investments?lang=eng

Making a living versus acquiring wealth:

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/2013/12/making-a-living-making-a-life?lang=eng

Edited May 1, 2019 by Calm

[Duncan]

We had a discussion about this a few months ago for the 5th Sunday lesson, it wasn't the main focus of the lesson but it was brought up and we had good discussion on it

[MustardSeed]

 

I thought this was interesting. 

“said Latter-day Saints are taught to trust their feelings, but while that might be a valid basis for religious decisions, it's not for business decisions. He also said he found people who believe if they're using the money for good, God would protect it.”

arent we indeed taught to trust the voice in all things, not just religious decisions? 

 

Also, many people think of MLMs as ponzies.  Many lds women are drawn to mlms because they can base out of the home.  

 

 

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 

I thought this was interesting. 

“said Latter-day Saints are taught to trust their feelings, but while that might be a valid basis for religious decisions, it's not for business decisions. He also said he found people who believe if they're using the money for good, God would protect it.”

arent we indeed taught to trust the voice in all things, not just religious decisions? 

 

Also, many people think of MLMs as ponzies.  Many lds women are drawn to mlms because they can base out of the home.  

 

 

I think we are taught to trust the spirit in all things, but the Spirit and our feelings are not synonymous (something that can be difficult to recognize and takes some practice).  And though I'm no fan of MLM's they definitely are not Ponzi schemes and the people who think they are are confused.  Ponzi schemes are illegal and MLM's aren't.  If Mary Kay was illegal I think the government would have caught on by now.

MLM's have their own serious problems and I agree that a lot of women members are drawn to them precisely because they allow someone to be a SAHM and still make money.  They sell a lot of smoke and mirrors though and they often use deceptive and pushy practices.

[MustardSeed]

I’m presently testing out a popular mlm product on half of me. I’m guaranteed my money back so if it works I’ll be happy.  If it doesn’t I’ll have my money back.  

My opinion is that members pray about all sorts of things including (especially?) financial decisions.  Whatever they experience following the prayer , be it revelation or indigestion, is often assigned to be an answer from god .  It’s easy to get excited about quick easy money, and I can understand why people would believe what they are experiencing is an answer from god to invest.  I’m not surprised by this article. 

 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m presently testing out a popular mlm product on half of me. I’m guaranteed my money back so if it works I’ll be happy.  If it doesn’t I’ll have my money back.  

My opinion is that members pray about all sorts of things including (especially?) financial decisions.  Whatever they experience following the prayer , be it revelation or indigestion, is often assigned to be an answer from god .  It’s easy to get excited about quick easy money, and I can understand why people would believe what they are experiencing is an answer from god to invest.  I’m not surprised by this article. 

 

Part of getting revelation is having pure intent. Being consumed by greed is not conducive to revelation.

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Part of getting revelation is having pure intent. Being consumed by greed is not conducive to revelation.

Agreed.  It’s evidently hard to separate that out, as ponzies are so popular among us. 

I have to admit, when I hear someone say they had revelation to act in a certain way, I often am internally critical when I am aware of impure motives. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Agreed.  It’s evidently hard to separate that out, as ponzies are so popular among us. 

I have to admit, when I hear someone say they had revelation to act in a certain way, I often am internally critical when I am aware of impure motives. 

So am I. I have heard people bear testimony of something they are trying to sell and was always uncomfortable even when I was young. Now I know the correct label: Priestcraft.

[MustardSeed]

Just now, The Nehor said:

So am I. I have heard people bear testimony of something they are trying to sell and was always uncomfortable even when I was young. Now I know the correct label: Priestcraft.

Don’t get me started. 

[Prof]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

We had a discussion about this a few months ago for the 5th Sunday lesson, it wasn't the main focus of the lesson but it was brought up and we had good discussion on it

We had a similar meeting here on the last 5th Sunday. It was more about being self reliant and financially secure, but we spent some time specifically on this subject!

[Thinking]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

And though I'm no fan of MLM's they definitely are not Ponzi schemes and the people who think they are are confused.  Ponzi schemes are illegal and MLM's aren't.

They do have one glaring similarity. The later one enters/invests, the smaller the chance of realizing any return on investment.

[Thinking]

Some Ponzi schemes start out as legitimate businesses.

My brother worked for a company that started to struggle financially. The owner found some investors whose investment dollars were supposed to open new stores. The owner used the money for payroll and operating expenses, but new stores were never opened. The company eventually went out of business. My sister and her then husband were two of those investors and lost over $40,000.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

They do have one glaring similarity. The later one enters/invests, the smaller the chance of realizing any return on investment.

Kind of.  Most investments are a couple hundred dollars at most so it's really not that hard to see a return on that.  But you are right in that the later one becomes a part of the organization, the less people there are too recruit underneath you and so it's harder to receive money that way.  But the amount that people are making off selling the actual product usually remains the same whether you get in at the beginning or years later.

The good MLMs (mary kay, paparazzi, etc.) allow their consultants to make between 30% and 50% commission on everything they sell.  It's not hard to turn a profit on that (usually), but most of the time that profit will be small.  

[mnn727]

On 5/1/2019 at 12:26 AM, strappinglad said:

 

When was the last time this issue was addressed from the pulpit in GC ?? 

Why should a local issue be talked about in a World Wide General Conference?

[Tacenda]

I hate when I get friend requests from old friends or ward members, and it turns out they're selling a product. One of them worked so hard on me to buy a skin product I actually tried and it didn't work like I wanted but she continues to want me to try other products, very annoying.

I might have mentioned this a while back, but my husband's mission president reached out to us several years ago and asked us to go to a meeting and have dinner. Well it turns out it was something like Amway with a different name, and he worked on us to join. 

The mission president's daughter is doing the same thing but with a different product. More a health coach with food to buy, but it appears it's helping many, and does make a very good profit since she is one of the top dogs.

I went to school with her and she friended me on FB, she is a darling lady, but my husband can't stand when I listen to her 'Thursday thoughts' etc. he gets so mad, and I get a kick out of that. I like her thoughts, but not sure I want to try her products. 

I watched this youtube before this thread came up recently, interesting undercover investigation on Mormonism and MLM's. These companies like Younique and Nu Skin have a huge mark up, it's almost like highway robbery. 

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Why should a local issue be talked about in a World Wide General Conference?

My husband said it was mentioned in GC recently.? 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I hate when I get friend requests from old friends or ward members, and it turns out they're selling a product. One of them worked so hard on me to buy a skin product I actually tried and it didn't work like I wanted but she continues to want me to try other products, very annoying.

I might have mentioned this a while back, but my husband's mission president reached out to us several years ago and asked us to go to a meeting and have dinner. Well it turns out it was something like Amway with a different name, and he worked on us to join. 

The mission president's daughter is doing the same thing but with a different product. More a health coach with food to buy, but it appears it's helping many, and does make a very good profit since she is one of the top dogs.

I went to school with her she friended me on FB, she is a darling lady,but my husband can't stand when I listen to her 'Thursday thoughts' etc. he gets so mad, and I get a kick out of that. I like her thoughts, but not sure I want to try her products. 

I watched this youtube before this thread came up recently, interesting undercover investigation on Mormonism and MLM's. These companies like Younique have a huge mark up, it's almost like highway robbery. 

 

I totally agree Tacenda.  It is incredibly annoying when someone friends you just to try to sell you something.  It instantly makes me dislike them.  

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I totally agree Tacenda.  It is incredibly annoying when someone friends you just to try to sell you something.  It instantly makes me dislike them.  

Yes, I agree with Tacenda. When people “friend” you either on Facebook or an invitation to come visit or have lunch and then are only trying to sell you something...this behavior is really low. I don’t want friends like that.

[Garden Girl]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hate when I get friend requests from old friends or ward members, and it turns out they're selling a product. One of them worked so hard on me to buy a skin product I actually tried and it didn't work like I wanted but she continues to want me to try other products, very annoying.

 

Tacenda... you don't owe these types of people anything... Tell them in no uncertain terms that you are not interested in their product and have no intention of buying anything.  Bet they will disappear fast...

GG

Edited May 2, 2019 by Garden Girl

[ttribe]

On 5/2/2019 at 8:07 AM, mnn727 said:

Why should a local issue be talked about in a World Wide General Conference?

Because it isn't a local issue.  It's affinity fraud and any tight-knit religious group is highly susceptible to its allures.  Utah's statistics in this area are simply a nice population structure for demonstrating its effects.

Here's a short article I wrote on the subject a number of years ago: http://digitaleditions.walsworthprintgroup.com/publication/?i=115428&p=13#{"page":12,"issue_id":115428}

Edited May 3, 2019 by ttribe

[Tacenda]

On 5/2/2019 at 3:00 PM, Garden Girl said:

Tacenda... you don't owe these types of people anything... Tell them in no uncertain terms that you are not interested in their product and have no intention of buying anything.  Bet they will disappear fast...

GG

Thanks GG, I appreciate your looking out for me!! 😍

[mnn727]

23 hours ago, ttribe said:

Because it isn't a local issue.  It's affinity fraud and any tight-knit religious group is highly susceptible to its allures.  Utah's statistics in this area are simply a nice population structure for demonstrating its effects.

Here's a short article I wrote on the subject a number of years ago: http://digitaleditions.walsworthprintgroup.com/publication/?i=115428&p=13#{"page":12,"issue_id":115428}

Sorry Tim, your article does not prove its a Mormon thing outside the mountain west.