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Those not sealed.


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I have always understood the gospel to teach that you can (and will actually have a responsibility to) visit family and/or friends in lower kingdoms.  D&C 76 is strong evidence for this, and states that you will actually have a responsibility to take care of those in lower kingdoms.  This "isolated for eternity" doom and gloom sounds like really depressing personal opinion in direct conflict with scripture (D&C 76).

Edited by Waylon
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15 hours ago, Rivers said:

If family members or spouses aren’t sealed to each other, will they be physically separated in the resurrection?

The lower kingdoms have separation police that prevent non-sealed couples from even talking to each other. Repeated attempts to communicate can result in a demotion to a lower kingdom.

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10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Some sealers have told me that most everyone on the other side accepts the ordinances

Accepting the ordinances is one thing, but being able to abide by the associated laws and covenants would seem to be another.

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46 minutes ago, pogi said:

Don't blame God for killing you because he created gravity. 

This perspective I struggle with.

On the one hand, I agree with you 100%. I do not believe that god is omnipotent. He is subject to universal laws.

On the other hand, when things don’t make sense, I believe I (we) may misunderstand god. Let’s be candid: LDS eternal sealing theology rests on

—a ritual that has changed over the last 150(ish) years

—is formed by holding hands and a man saying words

—can be cancelled by a decision and a signed letter from the first presidency.

You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing the sealing (as we practice it today) as some sort of universal cosmic law to which God is bound.  Maybe we misunderstand what the sealing power (concept?) is.

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14 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

This perspective I struggle with.

On the one hand, I agree with you 100%. I do not believe that god is omnipotent. He is subject to universal laws.

On the other hand, when things don’t make sense, I believe I (we) may misunderstand god. Let’s be candid: LDS eternal sealing theology rests on

—a ritual that has changed over the last 150(ish) years

—is formed by holding hands and a man saying words

—can be cancelled by a decision and a signed letter from the first presidency.

You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing the sealing (as we practice it today) as some sort of universal cosmic law to which God is bound.  Maybe we misunderstand what the sealing power (concept?) is.

You left out the most important variable of which or sealing theology rests on:

- the keys of sealing bestowed upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery via Elijah.

Yes, the keys of the priesthood work through "saying words", just as God created the earth by speaking it into existence.  "God spoke and the elements obeyed".  I hope you weren't expecting something more like this:

Image result for shazam lightning through hands

 

Edited by pogi
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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, the keys of the priesthood work through "saying words", just as God created the earth by speaking it into existence.

How do you know that is how the priesthood "works"?

One can't call upon the power of the priesthood by offering a sincere prayer in their heart?  It has to be said out loud?

Edited by ALarson
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2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Let’s be candid: LDS eternal sealing theology rests on

—a ritual that has changed over the last 150(ish) years

—is formed by holding hands and a man saying words

—can be cancelled by a decision and a signed letter from the first presidency.

Words and hand holding are symbols.  The efficacy of the sealing ordinance as taught and performed by by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the reality of the restoration of the priesthood.  Without this priesthood no amount of words, hand holding, or anything will matter.  The president of the church holds the keys of the priesthood, and like the apostle Peter, has the power and authority to "bind on earth [what is] bound in heaven: and...loose on earth [what is] loosed in heaven." (Matthew 18:18)

Edited by ksfisher
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Just now, ALarson said:

How do you know that is how the priesthood "works"?

One can't call upon the power of the priesthood by offering a sincere prayer in their heart?  It has to be said out loud?

I think this largely misses the point, but since you brought it up - words are words, whether said in your heart or out loud. 

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5 minutes ago, pogi said:

You left out the most important variable of which or sealing theology rests on:

- the keys of sealing bestowed upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery via Elijah.

Yes, the keys of the priesthood work through "saying words", just as God created the earth by speaking it into existence.  "God spoke and the elements obeyed".  I hope you weren't expecting something more like this:

Image result for shazam lightning through hands

 

Your faith is admirable.  But I hope it doesn’t blind you to how absurd it can seem to some.

Example: I’m going to decree that after you die, you will live only with llamas.  No matter what you want, that’s what will happen.  How do I know this?  God told me that only I can save you from living with llamas. He gave me the power to let you live with your family instead of stinky llamas, but you have to follow the rules I tell you about.

Does it make any sense to you?  Maybe not. But, that’s just how the universe works!

My faith in LDS theology is not as strong as yours.  Hence, I am not at peace.

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this largely misses the point, but since you brought it up - words are words, whether said in your heart or out loud. 

Well, I do believe that we have to ask.  So technically you are correct, I agree.

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26 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

This perspective I struggle with.

On the one hand, I agree with you 100%. I do not believe that god is omnipotent. He is subject to universal laws.

On the other hand, when things don’t make sense, I believe I (we) may misunderstand god. Let’s be candid: LDS eternal sealing theology rests on

—a ritual that has changed over the last 150(ish) years

—is formed by holding hands and a man saying words

—can be cancelled by a decision and a signed letter from the first presidency.

You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing the sealing (as we practice it today) as some sort of universal cosmic law to which God is bound.  Maybe we misunderstand what the sealing power (concept?) is.

"Sealing" and "sealing power" are manifest and executed in different ways, and can mean and refer to various things. I think that looking at what Nephi had and did (Helaman 10) that are in common with Elijah, Peter and temple ordinances gets to the common root of what they are.

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19 minutes ago, the narrator said:

For something that is supposed to be the centerpiece of our theology, I think it's funny how nobody seems to know what sealing is or does.

Or the facile dismissal of what it claims to be when we state "It will all be worked out in the next life."

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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Your faith is admirable.  But I hope it doesn’t blind you to how absurd it can seem to some.

Example: I’m going to decree that after you die, you will live only with llamas.  No matter what you want, that’s what will happen.  How do I know this?  God told me that only I can save you from living with llamas. He gave me the power to let you live with your family instead of stinky llamas, but you have to follow the rules I tell you about.

Does it make any sense to you?  Maybe not. But, that’s just how the universe works!

My faith in LDS theology is not as strong as yours.  Hence, I am not at peace.

I am frequently reminded as to how "absurd" my faith seems to you and others, so I am definitely not blind to it.  I try to let it roll of my back.

You can decree whatever you want.  I tend to lean on my personal communion and revelation with God rather than decrees of others.

I am sorry you are not at peace.   

 

Edited by pogi
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11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am frequently reminded as to how "absurd" my faith seems to you and others, so I am definitely not blind to it.  I try to let it roll of my back.

You can decree whatever you want.  I tend to lean on my personal communion and revelation with God rather than decrees of others.

I am sorry you are not at peace.   

 

How can you be at peace with that god, though?

Do you have family that has “strayed” from the teachings of the LDS church whom you love?  Good people, but maybe aren’t temple worthy?

By your position, it seems you are at peace that they don’t belong with you after you die. For eternity, they are no longer in your family.  You cannot be with them.

Do you have children?  Grandchildren?  If they aren’t “noble and true”, yet you want to be with them, and they want to be with you, you worship a god who would pull them away from you?

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8 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

This perspective I struggle with.

On the one hand, I agree with you 100%. I do not believe that god is omnipotent. He is subject to universal laws.

On the other hand, when things don’t make sense, I believe I (we) may misunderstand god. Let’s be candid: LDS eternal sealing theology rests on

—a ritual that has changed over the last 150(ish) years

—is formed by holding hands and a man saying words

—can be cancelled by a decision and a signed letter from the first presidency.

You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing the sealing (as we practice it today) as some sort of universal cosmic law to which God is bound.  Maybe we misunderstand what the sealing power (concept?) is.

A fundamental understanding of authority. A man says you are under arrest and he is a baker - does not really mean anything. A police officer that says you are under arrest means something. Jesus taught that what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven - this works for those with authority, but it is meaningless aka "is formed by holding hands and a man saying words" when performed by just a man.  

The challenge is a lack of understanding of foundational principals of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is no wonder you struggle. 

Edited by Storm Rider
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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

How can you be at peace with that god, though?

Do you have family that has “strayed” from the teachings of the LDS church whom you love?  Good people, but maybe aren’t temple worthy?

By your position, it seems you are at peace that they don’t belong with you after you die. For eternity, they are no longer in your family.  You cannot be with them.

Do you have children?  Grandchildren?  If they aren’t “noble and true”, yet you want to be with them, and they want to be with you, you worship a god who would pull them away from you?

I do have close family members who don't believe. 

I don't worship a God who will pull anybody away from me.  I worship a God who out of love and concern for us reveals eternal laws that help us to progress in happiness and peace, and who allows us agency to live within the bounds of gravity, or try and pretend like it doesn't exist.  

It seems that nearly everybody else accepts the departure of family at death - "until death do you part".  The priesthood offers an alternative and enduring covenant and bond that death cannot break, and you want to vilify God for bestowing that gift upon men?  If you don't like it, you can live with the alternative - "until death do you part".

Here is what I have faith in - God is perfect love.  God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful.  Period.  Man is fallible.  The church is imperfect.  The prophets are fallible.  But God is perfect.  In the end, I have faith in God who is perfect.  That is all I need to know for me to be at peace.  If any of my family members are not with me in the next life, it will be their own doing as God is perfectly merciful and just and is perfectly loving.   Those who place their family over a cup of coffee will have their family.  If a cup of coffee is more valuable to you than your family, then they can have their coffee.   I understand that people see this as an "absurd" and seemingly arbitrary condition to meet in order to receive the blessings of an eternal sealing.  But what if it isn't really about the coffee? 

Here is what I believe - we will all have an understanding of God and his plan before judgment.  We will all bow and admit that it is a perfectly merciful and just plan.  We will have ample opportunity to accept or reject it in this life or the next.  I don't loose hope on any family member who may not see it yet.  I can guarantee you that if you are not with your family in the after life, it will not be because of a cup of coffee.  Just as it was not really about washing in the river Jordan seven times (how absurd!), or about looking at the serpent on the staff, etc:

Quote

...and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished. (1 Nephi 17: 41)

Perhaps it is all a ritual and metaphorically based practice that teaches us to set aside our own understanding and pride and to humble our ear to learn wisdom from the Father of love.  All blessing are here for the taking, we simply need to learn to listen and hear. Quiet the doubtful heart and the wandering mind.  Settle down in a quiet, nonjudgmental, meditative state and turn to God with open ears.  Test the seed in good measure and on humble knees. He will not leave you fruitless. That is my experience anyway, and thus my faith.  It is not about the coffee any more than it was about a cast serpent on a staff. 

Edited by pogi
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5 minutes ago, pogi said:

It seems that nearly everybody else accepts the departure of family at death - "until death do you part".  The priesthood offers an alternative and enduring covenant and bond that death cannot break, and you want to vilify God for bestowing that gift upon men?  If you don't like it, you can live with the alternative - "until death do you part"

"Until death do you part" refers to the bounds of marriage not the departure of family. A big difference. Do you honestly believe that other faiths do not believe that they will be together with their families in the hereafter?

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12 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

"Until death do you part" refers to the bounds of marriage not the departure of family. A big difference. Do you honestly believe that other faiths do not believe that they will be together with their families in the hereafter?

I don't know what they all believe.  But there is no revelation or promise that says they will be together as a family.  That is just wishful thinking if any do believe that.  The contract they enter specifies that, they will "part" at death.  It says "until death do you (not the marriage contract) part."  That is the contract, and I believe it as there is no revelation anywhere that specifies otherwise. 

Edited by pogi
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59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The challenge is a lack of understanding of foundational principals of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not wonder you struggle. 

So the key to understanding Jesus Christ is to understand that he is in charge?  He is authoritative?

In my reading of the scriptures, I don’t see his emphasis on his dominion.

Please help!

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4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So the key to understanding Jesus Christ is to understand that he is in charge?  He is authoritative?

In my reading of the scriptures, I don’t see his emphasis on his dominion.

Please help!

No? 

Could there be a more authoritative pronouncement than "I am the way, the truth and the life..."  What can be more authoritative and domineering than the truth?  He actually claimed to be "the truth"!  

King of king, Lord of Lords... of the kingdom of God.

I could go on.

 

Edited by pogi
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3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Accepting the ordinances is one thing, but being able to abide by the associated laws and covenants would seem to be another.

Acceptance of the ordinances = acceptance of associated laws and covenants.

The sealers I have heard sound like universalists, but that does not mean that every acceptance is the same, and that does not mean that the sealers are correct in their assertions.  However, one  might want to recall the parable of the workers who come late in the day:  Despite not working as long as the others, they receive the same pay.  Seems a bit unfair, but Jesus told it to make a point about  grace and the infinite reach of the infinite Atonement.  The demands of justice have already been paid.

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6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know what they all believe.  But there is no revelation or promise that says they will be together as a family.  That is just wishful thinking if any do believe that.  The contract they enter specifies that, they will "part" at death.  It says "until death do you (not the marriage contract) part."  That is the contract, and I believe it as there is no revelation anywhere that specifies otherwise. 

Each and every such family is being sealed together in holy temples of God, thus extending that human and mortal contract.  It need only be accepted by the parties on the other side of the veil.  God's plan is clever and all-encompassing.  That's his work and his glory.  To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

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