phaedrus ut Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 The Salt Lake Tribune recently discussed Jana Reiss' new book The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church. The findings of their research including items where younger generations of Mormons are much more socially liberal than the older generations. The above quote from the book really stood out to me. Quote Many work outside the home, are increasingly more educated, and have fewer children like their U.S. counterparts. “Church has become the only place where some of these women … experience what they consider to be discrimination,” Riess said. Female millennials are more likely than older members to say that they do not have enough say in the church’s programs and decision-making. Unfortunately sexism and gender discrimination has been bad in many societies but I think the trend has been moving against this for a century. In the secular world not only is discrimination based upon sex highly unethical but probably illegal. I hadn't considered the perspective of a woman enjoying a life free from discrimination because of her gender everywhere but within the organization of the church. Phaedrus 4 Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 Considering how women are discriminated against generally in society I find it surprising they would pick the church as their bogeyman and not their employers or the people they date or how they are treated socially, and the like. 11 Link to comment
Amulek Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Considering how women are discriminated against generally in society I find it surprising they would pick the church as their bogeyman and not their employers or the people they date or how they are treated socially, and the like. I agree. I'm highly skeptical that church is the "only" place these women ever experience what they consider to be discrimination. 3 Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: The Salt Lake Tribune recently discussed Jana Reiss' new book The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church. The findings of their research including items where younger generations of Mormons are much more socially liberal than the older generations. The above quote from the book really stood out to me. Unfortunately sexism and gender discrimination has been bad in many societies but I think the trend has been moving against this for a century. In the secular world not only is discrimination based upon sex highly unethical but probably illegal. I hadn't considered the perspective of a woman enjoying a life free from discrimination because of her gender everywhere but within the organization of the church. Its hard for members who've been conditioned to how the church operates to see the sexism that is present in the systems and traditions of the CoJCoLDS. I'm thinking the disparity for the younger generations is even more obvious to them, so they are finding it a bigger struggle than previous generations. The boys do all the "important" work, the boys are in charge of the meetings the boys are conducting, etc. This obviously needs to change, but how likely is it that the current 15 in charge will be willing to change something and in that same act relinquish some of their own power and prestige in the process? I'm afraid that until the disparity between the culture and the church gets even more out of calibration to the point of external pressure on the church, we'll continue to see little concessions here and there but avoiding the larger issue at the root of all this and that is the priesthood. 3 Link to comment
Popular Post phaedrus ut Posted February 25, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Considering how women are discriminated against generally in society I find it surprising they would pick the church as their bogeyman and not their employers or the people they date or how they are treated socially, and the like. 13 minutes ago, Amulek said: I agree. I'm highly skeptical that church is the "only" place these women ever experience what they consider to be discrimination. The good part is these women don't actually need you to believe them. They get to speak their own truth. Phaedrus 6 Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: The good part is these women don't actually need you to believe them. They get to speak their own truth viewpoints. Phaedrus Fixed it for you. No thanks expected. 😎 But it is no secret that there is a group of women that are not satisfied with traditional roles that women have played in the church and want a greater voice in how the church is governed, etc. I believe that the leadership is reviewing the matters and working to address those concerns as well as they can withing the constraints of the Priesthood authority. There are many that will not be satisfied with that and I do not know where it will take them It has taken one of my daughters out of the church. Just wanted to add a thought. I should not be able to edit another person's comments that I quote. It would make it so easy to do so without notice. Sometimes just an additional word or removing a word can significantly alter the meaning of a person's comments. Edited February 25, 2019 by Glenn101 Added a couple of thoughts 1 Link to comment
Popular Post phaedrus ut Posted February 25, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: Fixed it for you. No thanks expected. 😎 Next time someone bears their testimony you should correct them and tell them they don't "know the church is true" they just have a viewpoint. Or do you only change truth to viewpoints when you disagree with the information? Phaedrus Edited February 25, 2019 by phaedrus ut 5 Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) Female millennials are more likely than older members to say that they do not have enough say in the church’s programs and decision-making. Yawn. Female millennials are Primary teachers, older members have been RS presidents. Edited February 25, 2019 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: Next time someone bears their testimony you should correct them and tell them they don't "know the church is true" they just have a viewpoint. Or do you only change truth to viewpoints when you disagree with the information? Phaedrus Did not realize that you or the women were bearing their testimony of "the truth." But a testimony meeting is not a debating forum. I do not debate testimonies. 3 Link to comment
phaedrus ut Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, cdowis said: Female millennials are more likely than older members to say that they do not have enough say in the church’s programs and decision-making. Yawn. Female millennials are Primary teachers, older members have been RS presidents. I think you might be confusing generations. I know multiple bishops and RS presidents that are millennials. Phaedrus 2 Link to comment
rpn Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I've been regularly calling out sexist behavior all my life at church (though I never really called it that, it seemed to be just stupid stuff that was unnecessary or unkind), mostly resulting in leader apology and change to address the issue. Unless a member thinks that not holding the priesthood is discrimination, the only area where I've seen what could legitimately be called discrimination is the comparative funding and planning and recognition of the YW/YM programs, and the church is in the process of addressing that (and much of what has occurred has been more of the ease of following BSA program (and traditions of scouting and staffing) rather than actual desire for different treatment or based on sex). Are there things we could and should do differently in our era of the church. Of course. Will the church benefit greatly as it includes women more in planning and deciding in the church? Yes, though that depends largely on whether the women themselves are the church members who have enough and the kind of experiences and support to freely give candid advice, and be able to articulate perspectives of women that they don't personally share as well as their own. (Which is the same need from the men.) Faithful women do NOT all think alike or live the gospel in the same ways. IMHO, this isn't a man vs woman issue. And to some degree it is about individual members sharing their wrestling and suggestions in settings where others listen. 3 Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: I think you might be confusing generations. I know multiple bishops and RS presidents that are millennials. Phaedrus Shrug. I do not define millennials by their date of birth. Edited February 25, 2019 by cdowis Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Amulek said: I agree. I'm highly skeptical that church is the "only" place these women ever experience what they consider to be discrimination. Maybe the women could chime in here and tell us what they think. Would giving the Presiding Bishopric to the women be an adequate first act of concession? Women in complete charge of all LDS Charities and Welfare Square, with men working for them. What would Jana Reiss say? Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, phaedrus ut said: The good part is these women don't actually need you to believe them. They get to speak their own truth. Phaedrus They could and I would be interested in hearing that but sadly all I got a summary from Jana Reiss which I suspect is an oversimplification. 5 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, cdowis said: Shrug. I do not define millennials by their date of birth. Then you are using the word wrong and should stop using it. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: ts hard for members who've been conditioned to how the church operates to see the sexism that is present in the systems and traditions of the CoJCoLDS. It is plenty easy for some of us raised in the Church, imo. My friends and I have been discussing it since 1970 at least, my mom and me likely earlier. Edited February 25, 2019 by Calm 6 Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 30 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Then you are using the word wrong and should stop using it. And if I continue to use it, what is your plan? Ignore me, pleeze. Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, phaedrus ut said: The good part is these women don't actually need you to believe them. They get to speak their own truth. Phaedrus ''Tis true. Experiences vary. In my case, while plenty of sexism in the Church, there has always been more outside...the most frustrating currently is from medical doctors (husband and I go in for same back pain and as far as he expresses it and moves the pain seems comparable, he gets meds and physical therapy, I get told to go home and exercise; my husband goes in with a sleep disorder and he gets put in an experimental treatment program, I get treated like a drug addict and dropped as a patient). Edited February 25, 2019 by Calm 6 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, cdowis said: And if I continue to use it, what is your plan? Ignore me, pleeze. I plan to egg your house. Link to comment
Calm Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Just wanted to add a thought. I should not be able to edit another person's comments that I quote. It would make it so easy to do so without notice. Sometimes just an additional word or removing a word can significantly alter the meaning of a person's comments. That is probably one of the reasons it is against board rules to do so. You might want to delete the altered quote as I have seen posters getvbanned for it. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Just wanted to add a thought. I should not be able to edit another person's comments that I quote. It would make it so easy to do so without notice. Sometimes just an additional word or removing a word can significantly alter the meaning of a person's comments. Also, Nehor is the smartest person I have ever met. I agree on both points. 1 Link to comment
CA Steve Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I plan to egg your house. By "egg" you mean using toilet paper right? I mean if we are able to define words however we want, then egg = toilet paper, right? Link to comment
Calm Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) Just lost a post...obviously the world telling me it is time to move on from breakfast to the treadmill...before I go, there are still many women who perceive sexism in the workplace, which why it seems remarkable if these women feel they only perceive it at church...but perhaps they are in happy pockets: https://www.dailydot.com/irl/sexism-heart-teachers-striking/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/college/2017/08/03/college-women-in-tech-were-encountering-sexism-already/104272100/ https://healthydebate.ca/opinions/sexism-in-medicine Edited February 25, 2019 by Calm 3 Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) del wrong thread Edited February 25, 2019 by cdowis Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 51 minutes ago, Calm said: It is plenty easy for some of us raised in the Church, imo. My friends and I have been discussing it since 1970 at least, my mom and me likely earlier. You have eyes to see and ears to hear. Link to comment
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