rockpond Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 “A Provo senator unveiled a bill this week that would make Brigham Young University’s police department subject to the state’s open records laws.” https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/21/new-bill-would-force-byu/ I’m curious why BYU and the Brethren who oversee the school would be forcing this issue. Why not just open the records like every other police department in the state? 4 Link to comment
sunstoned Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 This seems like a no brainier. But I doubt it will make it through the LDS legislature. 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, rockpond said: “A Provo senator unveiled a bill this week that would make Brigham Young University’s police department subject to the state’s open records laws.” https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/21/new-bill-would-force-byu/ I’m curious why BYU and the Brethren who oversee the school would be forcing this issue. Why not just open the records like every other police department in the state? It would certainly force BYU PD to be more business like, and never to defer to the Honor Code system. Link to comment
rockpond Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It would certainly force BYU PD to be more business like, and never to defer to the Honor Code system. What do you mean by "never to defer to the Honor Code system"? Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 10 hours ago, rockpond said: “A Provo senator unveiled a bill this week that would make Brigham Young University’s police department subject to the state’s open records laws.” https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/21/new-bill-would-force-byu/ I’m curious why BYU and the Brethren who oversee the school would be forcing this issue. Why not just open the records like every other police department in the state? People in power will very rarely voluntarily let go of their power. If the church believes it can hold onto special privileges without too much negative PR blow back, it will do that. This is the rule, and altruism is the exception to the rule. 4 Link to comment
rpn Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Shouldn't take a statute. They (any entity using public resources) can't have it both ways. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted February 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, rockpond said: What do you mean by "never to defer to the Honor Code system"? There is an Honor Code system at BYU which is not part of the BYU PD. If there is an open records law, that would motivate the BYU PD not to allow itself to be shamelessly used by the Honor Code people. That would be virtually incestuous and illegal. Open records of double-dealing would expose some people to lawsuits. Fear is a great motivator. 5 Link to comment
rockpond Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: There is an Honor Code system at BYU which is not part of the BYU PD. If there is an open records law, that would motivate the BYU PD not to allow itself to be shamelessly used by the Honor Code people. That would be virtually incestuous and illegal. Open records of double-dealing would expose some people to lawsuits. Fear is a great motivator. So you are saying that BYU administrators have (or could) use the BYU PD for Honor Code enforcement and so abiding by open records laws would prevent that from happening? Link to comment
Popular Post hoo rider Posted February 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2019 I don't live in Utah, but it seems to me that any person in the United States that is exercising governmental authority and has special immunities that are granted by the government should be subject to open records law (subject of course to some redactions to preserve confidentiality). If memory serves, the BYU police have argued that they should not subject to open records laws because they are not publicly funded. In my view, a private police force that is not accountable to the people could allow for all sorts of bad actions. 8 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, rockpond said: So you are saying that BYU administrators have (or could) use the BYU PD for Honor Code enforcement and so abiding by open records laws would prevent that from happening? They worked hand in glove in the past, which is or should be Verboten for any law enforcement agency. Which is why I have recommended in the past that any victim on campus go directly to Provo PD instead of BYU PD. 3 Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) del Edited February 25, 2019 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I need a bit of clarification. Scenario: A BYU student is found driving erratically around a campus parking lot at 2 am. by BYU PD . He is tested and found to be over the limit and arrested. A file is created, the student is detained. 1. Is the BYU PD required to notify the Provo PD and share all evidence? 2. Is the BYU PD required to notify the Honor Code folks about this? 3. How will the new bill change what may and may not happen in this case? 1 Link to comment
rockpond Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 9 hours ago, strappinglad said: I need a bit of clarification. Scenario: A BYU student is found driving erratically around a campus parking lot at 2 am. by BYU PD . He is tested and found to be over the limit and arrested. A file is created, the student is detained. 1. Is the BYU PD required to notify the Provo PD and share all evidence? 2. Is the BYU PD required to notify the Honor Code folks about this? 3. How will the new bill change what may and may not happen in this case? The new bill does not directly address those issues/questions. My understanding is that the it would require BYU PD to respond to valid open records requests which they have claimed immunity to in both the 2016 case cited and in last year's case with McKenna Denson's accusations against Joseph L Bishop. Link to comment
rockpond Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 The proposed legislation has passed committee: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/education/college/byu/bill-requiring-byu-police-to-be-subjected-to-grama-clears/article_0994bf00-c229-58bf-a949-5f2c3e1672a4.amp.html Please, BYU, correct this on your own without the embarrassment of being forced to do it. 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, rockpond said: The proposed legislation has passed committee: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/education/college/byu/bill-requiring-byu-police-to-be-subjected-to-grama-clears/article_0994bf00-c229-58bf-a949-5f2c3e1672a4.amp.html Please, BYU, correct this on your own without the embarrassment of being forced to do it. I heard today on the news, a BYU rep saying they are in the process of trying to get it appealed. Edited February 27, 2019 by Tacenda Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 The Utah legislature has passed SB197 which will require BYU's police department to disclose records like every other police department in the state. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/03/12/legislature-has-spoken/ It now needs the governor's signature. Time for BYU to do the right thing and release the records that have been requested regarding the honor code issue and the Denson-Bishop case. 1 Link to comment
provoman Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 45 minutes ago, rockpond said: The Utah legislature has passed SB197 which will require BYU's police department to disclose records like every other police department in the state. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/03/12/legislature-has-spoken/ It now needs the governor's signature. Time for BYU to do the right thing and release the records that have been requested regarding the honor code issue and the Denson-Bishop case. What is the definition "the right thing"; and who gets to define it. As I recall a facebook post hers, according to McKenna she already knows what is on the recording. Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, provoman said: What is the definition "the right thing"; and who gets to define it. As I recall a facebook post hers, according to McKenna she already knows what is on the recording. I get to define the right thing. :) Seriously though, I think the right thing is living up to the intent of the law and being fully transparent. As for what Denson claims to know, I'm not sure why that is relevant. Many don't believe what she has said anyway. Link to comment
bluebell Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: The Utah legislature has passed SB197 which will require BYU's police department to disclose records like every other police department in the state. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/03/12/legislature-has-spoken/ It now needs the governor's signature. Time for BYU to do the right thing and release the records that have been requested regarding the honor code issue and the Denson-Bishop case. Do you think that BYU PD losing its “accreditation” and not being a police force anymore will impact the chances of the governor signing this? Edited March 13, 2019 by bluebell Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Do you think that BYU losing its “accreditation” and not being a police force anymore will impact the chances of the governor signing this? I don't know much about the Utah governor so I can't venture a guess. I'd really prefer that BYU PD remain certified - I think the university should have a full fledged police force on campus. p.s. I assume you mean "BYU PD losing its certification". Nobody is threatening BYU with losing its accreditation (a move which I would certainly oppose on these grounds). 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 58 minutes ago, rockpond said: The Utah legislature has passed SB197 which will require BYU's police department to disclose records like every other police department in the state. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/03/12/legislature-has-spoken/ It now needs the governor's signature. Time for BYU to do the right thing and release the records that have been requested regarding the honor code issue and the Denson-Bishop case. Does this apply to all records or current and future ones? Not sure how it could not apply to past records if requested, but iirc there was something about it not being retroactive? 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't know much about the Utah governor so I can't venture a guess. I'd really prefer that BYU PD remain certified - I think the university should have a full fledged police force on campus. p.s. I assume you mean "BYU PD losing its certification". Nobody is threatening BYU with losing its accreditation (a move which I would certainly oppose on these grounds). Yes, I forgot to add the word PD. Oops. I put accreditation in quotes because I knew it wasn’t the right term but I couldn’t think of what the right term was. Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Yes, I forgot to add the word PD. Oops. I put accreditation in quotes because I knew it wasn’t the right term but I couldn’t think of what the right term was. Yeah... the term they used was "decertify". Tough to keep everything straight. It'll be sad but I think if they continue to refuse to abide by GRAMA, then decertification is the appropriate action and will likely happen (after appeals play out). 2 Link to comment
CA Steve Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 On 2/26/2019 at 9:11 PM, Tacenda said: I heard today on the news, a BYU rep saying they are in the process of trying to get it appealed. How does one appeal a legislative act? Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, CA Steve said: How does one appeal a legislative act? I believe that @Tacenda is referring to the Utah Department of Public Safety decision to decertify BYU's PD. That decision is something that can be appealed. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900057603/byu-police-decertified-by-state-utah.html So at this point we have the start department which regulates the police force AND the state legislature both telling BYU PD that they need to open up their records. Article of Faith 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Link to comment
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