According to LDS Doctrine, did Christ suffer more on the cross or in Gethsemane?

[Thinking]

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

Quote

It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in the most terrible reality. (p. 661)

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

No idea. The pain came back but it is not clear if it was for the same duration. I would think the cross was worse because in Gethsemane Jesus was ready. He had an angel strengthen him and he was "at the top of his game". Before the cross he was tortured and exhausted with the march to his death and the cross itself was, of course, torture as well so at this point he endured the same thing but he was in a much more depleted physical state. Luckily He was a God and could pull through.

I used to think I was pretty tough when it came to physical pain and I mostly am. Then I had an affliction that first drove me to worrying I was going to die and then across a line where I was more worried I would not die and there would be no escape from the pain.

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No idea. The pain came back but it is not clear if it was for the same duration. I would think the cross was worse because in Gethsemane Jesus was ready. He had an angel strengthen him and he was "at the top of his game". Before the cross he was tortured and exhausted with the march to his death and the cross itself was, of course, torture as well so at this point he endured the same thing but he was in a much more depleted physical state. Luckily He was a God and could pull through.

I used to think I was pretty tough when it came to physical pain and I mostly am. Then I had an affliction that first drove me to worrying I was going to die and then across a line where I was more worried I would not die and there would be no escape from the pain.

I saw my mom suffer for years with Alzheimer's. Sometimes I think a shorter death like Jesus's would be easier. So I almost feel blasphemous for saying that though. 

[thatjimguy]

I think the pain that he suffered is symbolic of the spiritual and mental pain of despair and hopelessness of every living being that existed, which could be considered worse. I mean, something that makes you bleed from every pore unforced is bound to be pretty bad.

Also, the fact that Gethsemane was they part where he actually made the decision to go through with it all. I imagine he was pretty resigned with everything else from that point. 

Certainly not to take away anything from the action on the cross. Actually, it's the follow through on the decision. How many of us make a decision to be better, just to weaken later or when the test finally arrives?

[JLHPROF]

I have no opinion which was greater pain- taking upon him all our sins and carrying that weight vs being sacrificed violently with the Father's spirit and comfort withdrawn.

Both are so far beyond our comprehension.

I know that some Christians like to debate whether the atonement was in Gethsemane or on Calvary or both.  I think we can look at that doctrinally.  But how it felt is pure speculation beyond knowledge.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

If Talmage and McConkie are correct, then while Christ was on the cross for the last three hours of His life, in addition to having to suffer the infinite spiritual pains and agonies of Gethsemane once again, while in a terribly weakened condition He also had to simultaneously endure the painful lingering aftermath of his horrific scourging, the physical tortures attendant to being crucified, and the emotional agonies of also being mocked and tormented by His hateful enemies, all the while having to maintain an attitude of perfect love and mercy. Personally, I agree with Apostle Jeffery R Holland who in his General Conference address “None Were With Him” testified that the moment when Christ descended to the very depths of His infinite and eternal sufferings is when He, in superhuman agony, cried out, “my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!”

Bruce R McConkie...

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 A.M. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 P.M., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

Edited December 24, 2018 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I saw my mom suffer for years with Alzheimer's. Sometimes I think a shorter death like Jesus's would be easier. So I almost feel blasphemous for saying that though. 

I am not convinced his was shorter. He endured all pain including that of someone suffering from the confusion of Alzheimer’s and the pain of their loved ones watching someone slip away bit by bit. I think that Christ may have left what we understand as time in that experience and from his perspective it may have taken millennia.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

Only Jesus and his Father know.  I'm just glad that our Elder Brother Jesus willingly took on that responsibility.

[Avatar4321]

I don’t believe the scriptures say one way or another.

i also don’t think they distinguish between the events that much. Both the garden and the cross and all that came between were part of Christ’s sacrifice. Which part of a bitter experience was worse means little if we let Christ work in our lives 

[rpn]

How in the world would any of us know?    And why would it matter, such that it would be an issue of doctrine?

[carbon dioxide]

There is different kinds of pain.  The pain that Christ suffered just before he was put on the cross and while on the cross appears to be more physical pain inflicted on him by others.  The pain in Gethsemane while it probably consisted of physical pain was probably more centered on spiritual and emotional pain.  Nobody was inflicting wounds on Christ there yet it is there that Christ needed an angel (probably Adam) to give him strength.  Which was worse?  Who knows and it probably does not matter.  Christ suffered far more physically, spiritually, and emotional during that period than anyone will ever experience.  We should look at the atonement as a process rather than something specific that occurred at a single second in time.  Perhaps these differences in types of pain allows Christ to understand the pains that we feel.   He got the whole range of pains that we suffer so he fully understands what we go through.

Edited December 24, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Vanguard]

It doesn't really matter to me. Academically though, it would seem Gethsemane would be the far greater challenge. As important and horrific as the cross was I don't think the suffering sets him apart as does the garden. No one has ever nor is capable  of experiencing the pain suffered in Gethsemane. The cross' agony is pedestrian in comparison and in light of the many other men & women who have suffered as horrible - if not more so - a mortal death in this temporality.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Vanguard

[JAHS]

As His suffering started, He "began to be sorrowful and very heavy," saying to his three chief disciples, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, unto death" (Mark 14:34). Leaving them to keep watch, he went further into the garden, where, according to the Book of Mormon, He would suffer "the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam" (2 Ne. 9:21). It was there in Gethsemane that his sweat was "as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44) for he bled "at every pore" . "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—" (D&C 19:18).

The way I have always understood it, comparatively speaking, His suffering on the cross was not as intense compared to the suffering He experienced in the Garden. 
The actual suffering for our sins was mainly performed in the garden, otherwise how could a physical suffering, the same  as other mortal men who were crucified suffered, be adequate to pay for all the sins of the world? His crucifixion and death were a necessary part of the process so He could bring about the resurrection. 

Prophets have taught that the Savior's greatest suffering was in Gethsemane. President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"[Christ's] greatest suffering was in Gethsemane. We speak of the passion of Jesus Christ. A great many people have an idea that when he was on the cross, and nails were driven into his hands and feet, that was his great suffering. His great suffering was before he ever was placed upon the cross. It was in the Garden of Gethsemane that the blood oozed from the pores of his body: "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.  That was not when he was on the cross; that was in the garden. That is where he bled from every pore in his body. Now I cannot comprehend that pain." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:130)

President Marion G. Romney wrote of suffering so great that "no man, nor set of men, nor all men put together, ever suffered what the Redeemer suffered in the Garden." (Romney, in Conference Report, October 1953, 35)

Many other men before and after Him suffered on the cross.

Elder James E. Talmage said:
From the terrible conflict in Gethsemane, Christ emerged a victor. Though in the dark tribulation of that fearful hour He had pleaded that the bitter cup be removed from His lips, the request, however oft repeated, was always conditional; the accomplishment of the Father's will was never lost sight of as the object of the Son's supreme desire. The further tragedy of the night, and the cruel inflictions that awaited Him on the morrow, to culminate in the frightful tortures of the cross, could not exceed the bitter anguish through which He had successfully passed. (Jesus the Christ, 614)

 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/23/2018 at 10:19 PM, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

Everyone says this. Very standard stuff imo.

[mfbukowski]

On 12/24/2018 at 7:37 AM, rpn said:

How in the world would any of us know?    And why would it matter, such that it would be an issue of doctrine?

Exactly.

And this is the perfect example of a life changing belief that has nothing to do with science or history and is not remotely verifiable except by the spirit. 

Why can't we apply this mental state of perfect faith to other docrines?

To me this is the very meaning of "saved by faith after all we can do "

In the end it's all we have anyway. 

Ultimately nothing spiritual is physically verifiable anyway, spirit is not measurable, the significance of an event is without measure 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

the significance of an event is without measure 

Quantum spirituality?

[Garden Girl]

On 12/24/2018 at 7:37 AM, rpn said:

How in the world would any of us know?    And why would it matter, such that it would be an issue of doctrine?

This is my feeling also, rpn... Does it matter?  We all know the events surrounding his atoning sacrifice for us... us... from the beginning to the very ending.  He suffered horrendously so we would not have to, and gave us life eternal.  I'm just grateful...

GG

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Quantum spirituality?

No, what was more significant, the civil war or World War II?

The creation or atonement ?

Your birthday or your mother's?

The point is there is no way to measure this stuff.

[Stargazer]

The Romans crucified thousands of people, with and without nails.  If that was all that Jesus endured, he endured no more than what those did.  In fact, there have been many extremely painful and slow methods of torture developed by some very sick people over the millennia, and some, most certainly, that were far worse than being crucified.  Some of those who were crucified over the lifetime of the Roman empire actually lasted for days before expiring -- but Jesus probably lasted only a number of hours, perhaps as many as 6 or 7.  

When you read Christ's own description of what happened to him (in DC 19) he doesn't mention the cross at all.  In fact, he mentions bleeding at every pore, as Luke does, and says:

DC 19:18 - Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

making it very clear that his suffering began in Gethsemane, not on the cross, or even during the scourging.

My own opinion is that Jesus was crucified because God needed a visible sign of suffering for us to even begin to appreciate what Jesus was going through.  But I'm convinced that Jesus didn't need crucifixion in order to perform the atoning sacrifice.  He said in DC 19:16-17...

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

To suffer "even as I", unrepentant souls will get to experience what He suffered.  Must they be crucified then?  Of course not.  But their suffering, in order to be like Christ's, must be both in body and in spirit -- and this means that it must occur after their resurrection, because they cannot suffer both body and spirit if they don't have a body.  But crucifixion is unnecessary, simply because the suffering that Christ started to suffer began well before he was crucified. And as I said, the crucifixion was only the outward symbol for what was happening to Him.

As far as I can imagine, the suffering of the crucifixion was like a mosquito bite in comparison to the pain of the atonement.  For if God Himself found it so hard to bear that He was tempted to shrink from it, it is probably so bad that only an immortal can endure it.  This requires resurrection as a prerequisite.

What is this suffering?  We don't know, but in DC 19 it is described as God's punishment.  Meaning that God inflicts it -- and also that God endured it.  And that it is limited in duration -- until "it is finished."

The reason why Christ's suffering is described as an "infinite atonement" is because he did not deserve to suffer it, but he suffered it nevertheless, and voluntarily.  Mathematically, I take this to mean division by zero.  Some amount of suffering divided by zero amount of guilt.  But when we suffer for our own sins, we deserve it, and we cannot escape it, because by our rejection of Him we have put ourselves out of the reach of mercy and grace.  It is the power of the atonement which Christ wrought that gives Him the power to stretch out His grace and mercy to us, because by his voluntary sacrifice he has earned that right.

 

[Vance]

The two on either side of Christ out lived him.  What is the significance of that fact? I don't know.

The pain of crucifixion cannot compare to the spiritual suffering experienced in the garden.  But the suffering that was in addition to the pain of crucifixion we can never know.  The suffering from having the Father withdraw from Him could be argued to be experienced by all of us who have sinned.

But we do know what the Savior has said,

D&C 19:18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

To me, that seems to indicate that the greater suffering was in the garden.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Vance

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Vance said:

The two on either side of Christ out lived him.  What is the significance of that fact? I don't know.

The pain of crucifixion cannot compare to the spiritual suffering experienced in the garden.  But the suffering that was in addition to the pain of crucifixion we can never know.  The suffering from having the Father withdraw from Him could be argued to be experienced by all of us who have sinned.

But we do know what the Savior has said,

D&C 19:18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

To me, that seems to indicate that the greater suffering was in the garden.

That's how I have always viewed it as well.  Christ took upon himself not only all of our transgressions but also all of our physical suffering in Gethsemane (as far as I understand) -  "In that quiet garden He willingly took upon Himself all of the pain and suffering the world has ever known."  https://www.mormon.org/blog/what-happened-in-gethsemane

So, whatever pain he experienced on the cross pales in comparison to Gethsemane - by that point he had already experienced the pain of a thousand crosses of everyone who had ever been crucified or would be crucified...along with the suffering of the rest of us.  And I agree, the withdrawal of God's spirit, while excruciating and unexpected, is something that we have all experienced through sin. 

To me, the cross was simply the means of his physical death - a crucial and necessary part of the atonement, but probably the more moderate part in terms of suffering. 

[clarkgoble]

On 12/23/2018 at 11:19 PM, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

It's speculative. I think Talmage is following Mosiah 3:7 which says, "he shall suffer temptations and pain of body, hunger, thirst and fatigue even more than man can suffer except it be unto death; for behold blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and abominations of his people." This gets paraphrased in D&C 19:18-19 as first person from Christ. "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink." The presumption is this is Gethsemene on the basis of Luke 22:44 although technically neither D&C 19 nor Mosiah 3 say that. It's also not clear how affected both are by the language of the KJV of Luke 22:44. Generally that is seen as a poor translation by the KJV and it should be read more as his sweat being so profuse it was as if was bleeding from a cut.

Critics will sometimes call the dependence of Mosiah 3 and D&C 19 on Luke 22 as a problem however it's just as easy to see them as poor paraphrases of Luke 22 and thus artifacts of language. i.e. they remain metaphors for sweat. Whether that's persuasive to a person depends upon how much freedom they think Joseph had in the particular phrasing.

I'd also say that while Jesus suffered in Gethsemene, it's not clear it was worse than on the cross. However it's certainly popular Mormon folk tradition to say the real part of the atonement was in Gethsemene where Christ gained a kind of experiential knowledge of each of our sufferings. If true, then the cross would pale next to Gethsemene since it'd mean he experienced everyone's torture - the worst torture in history. As bad as crucifixion was, and it was plenty bad, it's not the only type of torture. However technically that's a folk doctrine, albeit a very popular one. The scriptures themselves don't specify where the suffering took place. Although Gethsemene makes a lot of sense. 

[CV75]

On 12/24/2018 at 1:19 AM, Thinking said:

I attended sacrament meeting today with my wife. There were several musical numbers and a few short talks. During the bishop's talk he stated that the suffering in Gethsemane was greater than any suffering ever. This is not the first time I have heard this claim from LDS sources.

There is a passage in Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage that suggests otherwise.

The Cross + Gethsemane > Gethsemane

What say you?

As time went on in this life, of course He suffered more.