Heartland Theory? Cherokee, Ojibwa/Ojibwe, Seneca, Hopewell, Adena, Fu Sang, MicMac, DNA

[nuclearfuels]

 

Hullo my friends,

Been readin'

Found these resources to be persuasive.

Looking for challenges and critiques of these sources.

Disagreement is most welcome here.

Cheers!

 

 

Micmac (https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=438750)

"The Cherokees tested had high levels of DNA test markers associated with the Berbers, native Egyptians, Turks, Lebanese, Hebrews and Mesopotamians. Genetically, they are more Jewish than the typical American Jew of European ancestry. So-called “full-blooded” Cherokees had high levels of European DNA and a trace of Asiatic (Native American) DNA. 80 Some “card-carrying” Cherokees had almost no Asiatic DNA. The European DNA contained a much higher level of DNA test markers associated with the Iberian Peninsula that was typical of Caucasian Americans. The level of haplogroup T in the Cherokee (26.9%) approximated the percentage for Egypt (25%), one of the only lands where T attains a major position among the various mitochondrial lineages. The lab claims that their skin color and facial features are primarily Semitic in origin, not Native American ^[123]

"The Ohio Hopewell would suggest only one wave containing all the haplotypes that are present today in modern Native American populations."

Non-LDS, non-Mormon professor Dr. H. Mike Xu who has written a book called Origin of the Olmec Civilization ^[124]. Xu believes that when the Shang Dynasty was overthrown in 1122 BC that 250,000 refugees fled China, and taking to the sea, and came to Mesoamérica. They formed, or altered, the culture giving birth to the Olmec civilization. He observes:

→The last Shang king was defeated by his rivals and was killed in ll22 B.C. The collapse of the dlnasty forced the loyalists to flee to the East Ocean (the Pacific). Olmec civilization suddenly emerged around or immediately after the Shang's fall. Was it just coincidence? Or is it possible that part of those 250,000 refugees from ancient China ended up in the New World? → ^[125]

He then goes on to enumerate the identical cultural traits that are found in both China and Mesoamérica. He has identified a number of Shang characters used in ancient Chinese writings and also found on Olmec monuments in Mexico and Guatemala, and he seems to be able to interpret some of the Olmec glyphs and signs. ^[126] [127]

Dr. Xu's research supplements that of Lacouperie, a non-LDS 19th century French Sinologist who spent most of his life studying the history and ancient records of China:

"The early Chinese intruders and civilizers were the Bak tribes, about sixteen in number, who arrived on the N.W. borders of China not long after the great rising which had taken place in S.W. Asia at the beginning of the twenty-third century B.C. in Susiana. Their former seat was within the dominating influence of the latter country, as they were acquainted with its civilization, a reflex of the Babylo-Assyrian focus." ^[128]

Haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X are found among the Indians of the American continents. Haplogroups A, B, C, and D can be explained as coming from Asia, but not haplogroup X, which is only found in North American Indians. Other North, Central, and South American Indians show the Haplogroups A, B, C, and D. Haplogroup X is not found in Asia, it is found in Israel, Europe and North America specifically the Great lakes region by New York State.http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

Scientists believe that haplogroup X crossed the Bering Ice Bridge sometime around 12000 and 30000 years ago. That belief is problematic because there is no DNA evidence trail that haplogroup X crossed the Bering land bridge. Applying the same reasoning that critics use to conclude that DNA disproves the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, you would also conclude that haplogroup X did not cross the Bering land bridge. There is no Native American haplogroup X DNA found in Siberia, East Asia, or the west coast of America, and it is completely absent in Central and South America. When looking at the haplogroup X DNA distribution map notice that it is not found in East Asia but in Europe and the Middle East. There is a small group of haplogroup X found in the Altaians of south Siberia but this subgroup of haplogroup X is not related to North American Indians and their arrival in the Altaians is after the Bering Ice Bridge would not have been crossable.

“Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia” Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X

What also makes haplogroup X interesting is that it is a European. Caucasian DNA marker. The Caucasian part is important to keep that in mind as you read the quotes about Native American traditions and stories.

“Haplogroup X is remarkable in that it has not been found in Asians, including Siberians”

“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)

“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292

“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”

“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)

“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe (“Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/)

Another problem with the Bering Ice bridge theory is that Polynesian DNA is found in South America. The idea that Polynesians migrated across the Bering Ice Bridge is ridiculous.

“Researchers mapped similarities in genes, mutations and random pieces of DNA of Central and South American tribes with other groups. Warmer colors indicate the strongest affinities.” (Pontus Skoglund, Harvard Medical School).

From the map below notice the lack of Asian pockets of DNA that correspond to South America in Siberia and East Asia. But the larger concentrations found in the tropical and warmer climates of South Asia. Why would any group of people migrate to the arctic subzero temperatures of Siberia and North East Asia from tropical and temperate climates? Comparatively very few people live in these arctic climates the reason why these locations are inhospitable to human life. There are large concentrations of the mentioned DNA found in South American but notice the particular DNA samples being shown as evidence is not found in what is now America and only one location in Canada. This evidence would suggest transoceanic voyages to South America. Below are quotes from articles and research papers questioning the Bering Ice bridge theory:

 

“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory.”

“If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich.”

“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia.”

“Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.”

“There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/DNA-search-first-americans-links-amazon-indigenous-australians-180955976/?no-ist

Another valuable point in showing inconsistencies of the Bering land bridge theory is the Clovis/fluted spear point from Europe. This type of stone projectile is believed to have been brought from the European continent to North America via Bearing Ice Bridge. This spear point is found in Europe and North America but not found in Siberia or East Asia. How was this spear point brought to North America across the Bearing land bridge if it’s not found in Siberia and East Asia? Clovis spear points are found in plentiful supply east of the Rocky Mountains but in such areas as Alaska and the Aleutians where there should also be evidence showing this supposed crossing there are a few spots in Alaska most likely brought from movement from the east coast. But nothing in the way of evidence showing a land migration in Alaska or the Aleutians or East Asia or Siberia.

 

I believe it can be shown that haplogroup X and or the Jaredites are inexorably linked to this type of stone projectile. The Clovis people are believed to have caused the extinction of at least 25 genera of indigenous land mammals found in North America. To include horses, cattle, goats, and mammoths (elephants) all animals listed in the Book of Mormon. If the Jaredites brought over the Clovis spear point which I believe they did the Nephites and Lamanites eventually adopted this type of spear point. Major stumbling blocks to the historicity of the Book of Mormon can be shown to be false. I can only assume based on the evidence the current dating of the Clovis people is wrong and the Clovis point was used and arrived with the Jaredites. The current theory that this point arrived via the Bering land bridge without evidence proves this theory is in need of reexamination. That can be said of world migrations to the American continent also. The Clovis spear point map in my opinion is also indicative of the battles between Nephites and Lamanites fought in North America.

Originally the Bering Ice Bridge states that there was a single migration as far back as 30000 years ago. But population expansion of North America and diverse culture and linguistics populations found in North and South America prove against this. Now theorist are exploring the idea of two and maybe more migrations. I believe this is just the beginning of more theories to come. If attention can be turned to holes found in the Bering Ice Bridge theory I believe theories that include trans-oceanic voyages from Asia to the American continent will be unavoidable.

Scientists have used Anzick-1 to show a genetic link between Siberia and North America, but there are a couple problems with this hypothesis. Anzwic-1 is haplogroup D not X. It does not explain how haplogroup X arrived in North America. Based on genetic distribution haplogroup X and D, haplogroup X is more closely associated to the large concentration of Clovis and fluted points found on the east coast of America of which haplogroup D is almost completely absent from. Also, what would appear to be the founding populations based on the high concentrations of haplogroup D is found in central and South America – it’s not found on the west coast of North America or in Alaska. The physical evidence leads me to believe that haplogroup D arrived by trans-oceanic voyages to Central and South America.

“When Columbus reached the Americas in 1492, Native American occupation stretched from the Bering Strait to Tierra del Fuego, Torroni explained. Those native populations encompassed extraordinary linguistic and cultural diversity, which has fueled extensive debate among experts over their interrelationships and origins. “ (First Americans arrived as 2 separate migrations, according to new genetic evidence)

The DNA and Clovis spear points not found in Siberia and East Asia brings the bearing Ice bridge theory to a halt. But there is also a large amount of evidence disproving the timeline of a 15000BC to 30000BC timeline. The evidence will show there are certain North American Indian tribes that have Hebrew beliefs, linguistics, artifacts, technology and culture that date to biblical times and not to 15000BC which would predate these technologies and beliefs. A great example are the Hopewell and Adena Indians these cultures had an advanced metallurgy to include copper breastplates, copper and silver Jewelry, meteoric iron tools and weapons. The Hopewell and Adena had woven cloth and buttons. The Hopewell had an advanced trade system that stretched for thousands of miles with a highway system. It’s also worth noting that civilizations that had metallurgy, woven cloth and advanced trade system also had a written language. The oldest Hopewell archeological site is found in Florida at 500BC these Indians disappeared around 400 AD in the Great Lakes region. These technologies, cultural and linguistic ties show that haplogroup X arrived during biblical times by ship and not 12000BC to 30000BC through an arctic land migration.

The Hopewell Indians have haplogroup X DNA. The Adena culture end also matches the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell timeline geography and technology matches the Book of Mormon perfectly and makes them the perfect civilization to be the Nephites.

Haplogroup X DNA distribution is found on the east coast of America with the highest concentration found in the Great Lakes and Canada region. It’s not found in South and Central America and very little on the west coast of America. General world migration theory is that populations would follow the coast line we do not see this with haplogroup X. Scientist have point out dating of haplogroup X entry has been uncertain. Studies have shown population expansion of haplogroup X as stated by scientist happened during biblical times. One would assume that if haplogroup X arrived as late as 12000BC population expansion would have happened much earlier than what the current the evidence shows. Some scientist have theorized that haplogroup X crossed 3000 miles over ice from Europe to America across the Atlantic Ocean during the last ice. This theory is called the Solutrean theory and haplogroup X distribution and Clovis spear points are used as evidence. The theory that groups of people crossed over 3000 miles of frozen Atlantic Ocean ice is hard to swallow for the vast majority of scientist and this theory is not accepted. Any dating of haplogroup X by carbon dating past 6000 BC I believe is incorrect because of the evidence that will be provided and the environmental, uncertain atmospheric conditions of millennial dates, and variable inputs needed for carbon dating and biases of researchers.

The point of this is that theories of the populating of the American continent is fraught with holes. I believe DNA, cultural, and linguistic evidence will show that the American continent was populated through trans-oceanic voyages by ships versus land migrations in artic temperatures across barren ice. A view of geographical locations of South American DNA found in Asia has many locations in South Asia with fairly close proximity to the ocean suggesting ocean these voyages. The Book of Mormon states that there were three trans-oceanic migrations by ship, Lehi’s family, the Mulekites and the Jaredites. Polynesian DNA the legend of Fu sand and the Book of Mormon is all evidence that the Populating of North American was done by ship and not on artic land masses.

“The timing of initial entry into the Americas is uncertain. Through use of estimates of mtDNA diversity and rates of mtDNA evolution, a broad range of dates (11,000–43,000 years BP) have been estimated (Torroni et al. 1994; Bonatto and Salzano 1997a; Lorenz and Smith 1997; Stone and Stoneking 1998). Although researchers have recognized the need to incorporate population history in their estimates, the wide range of dates reported in the literature for the peopling of the Americas suggests that accurate models of Native American population history, accurate models of the evolution of mtDNA, and sufficient sampling of populations in the Americas have not yet emerged.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379119/

As will be shown in the essay North American Indians have beliefs that match the Book of Mormon perfectly. To include that Cherokee and Iroquois killed off a white race of Indian, certain Indian tribes sailed to North America and beliefs of written characters and letters. They had a lost gospel taken away from them, beliefs of a flood and Christ-like appearance. They also have Hebrew like language and culture and temple practices. Based on their own beliefs and traditions the Cherokee and Iroquois make up the primary tribes to be the Lamanites. The Micmac Indians based on the writings of Father Chretian Le Clercq are most likely to have been direct descendants of the Nephites.

Below I have added some quotes about Indian beliefs, culture and language. The quotes and evidence provided is a small sampling and just begins to scratch the surface out of the many books that have been written about the American Indians. To make the statement that there is no DNA, archeological, cultural and linguistic evidence to support the Book of Mormon is completely false the opposite is true. The quotes below come from today’s anthropologist. And the 19th 18th 17th century books are used by historians to write the history of the North American Indians. Some people might find using these sources as troublesome. But when it comes to exploring the beliefs culture and traditions of the American Indians the older the source the better due to the systematic destruction of the Native American way of life in the 18th, 19th and 20th century. One will also notice that statements made will be supported by multiple sources some from different countries and time spans.

Haplogroup X Distribution Haplogroup X distribution matches the historical record given in the Book of Mormon and Bible. According to the Heartland Model Lehi and his family landed somewhere between the Florida Panhandle and Mississippi. Nephi and his family immediately separated from Laman and went into the wilderness. The Seed of Nephi would most likely be the Caucasian DNA marker of haplogroup X and Laman’s seed would have mixed with the Asian ethnic tribes of that area and era. In the Book of Mormon it states that the Nephites constantly had to move North because their traditional lands south were being over taken by the Lamanites. The Nephites also had an extensive trade system that included the use of horses and chariots. We can see from the map that haplogroup X reached to and beyond the Rocky Mountains. That matches the statements that Joseph Smith made about Zelph that he was known from the Rocky Mountains to the eastern see (Lake Ontario). If the Hopewell Indians are the Nephites we know that the extensive trade system of the Hopewell’s reached to the Rocky Mountains to Lake Ontario and beyond as shown in the haplogroup X map. Hagoth sailed across the West Sea with over 5000 men women and children and he made this voyage twice. The west sea is most likely Lake Michigan. Hagoth would have populated what is now Canada. Hagoth’s seed for the most part could have avoided the Nephite genocide which happened in the Great Lakes area and would account for the largest concentration of haplogroup X in Canada. I know that prophets and apostles made statements that Hagoth sailed to the Polynesian Islands. I believe this to be incorrect. I believe they made these statements based on opinion and the knowledge and accepted theories of that day. Prophets and apostles opinions have been wrong before about inconsequential and controversial topics such as the idea that blacks would never receive the Priesthood and that men lived on the moon.

 

As far as the Europe and Middle East distribution goes we know that Manasseh and his seed were in Egypt, Persia, and then went north to what is believed by traditional accounts of the Lost Ten Tribes moving north. Each geographical location mentioned in the Bible and Book of Mormon is accounted for from the origination point of haplogroup X and its move north into Europe. One research paper has pointed out that the Galilee Druze of Israel have the most diversity and the highest concentration of Haplogroup X found on the European and Eurasian continent.

“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”

“We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39÷182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region”

The highest concentrations in the world of haplogroup X is found in the Israeli Galilee Druze at 27%. The North American Indians specifically the Ojibwa have the second highest concentration of haplo group x in the world. Haplogroup X is found in Europe in single digits. This match to the Bible and Book of Mormon is quite remarkable. If haplogroup X traveled with haplogroup A, B, C and D across Asia to North America, why do Ojibwa have the second highest concentration? It’s remarkable that a tribe in North America has almost the same concentration of haplogroup X in Israelis. This represents to me a recent and distinct voyage to the new world probably around 600BC. I believe it also shows that the Ojibwa in particular did not intermarry or populate with the other haplogroups already in the Americas. Haplogroup X is distinct from other haplogroups in every way.

The Book of Mormon points out two distinct civilizations that had metallurgy and woven cloth. The North American continent during the Book of Mormon timeline had two cultures and only two cultures that match this description: the Hopewell and Adena. The timeline given by the Book of Mormon matches the Hopewell culture and the end of the Adena culture. DNA distribution of the European and North American continent is also a match. There is absolutely no way that Joseph Smith could have known about the timelines and DNA distribution of these two cultures.

Asian Ethnic Tribes The Asian ethnic tribes came from the west on the other hand the Great Lake Indians said they sailed here from another country to America from the east. “On the contrary, their traditions inform us that they came from the west that they crossed the Mississippi, and that they gradually travelled towards the east, “When you ask them,” says Lawson, speaking of the Carolina-Indians, ” whence their Fore-fathers came, that first inhabited the country, they will point to the Westward and say. Where the Sun sleep, our Fore-fathers came thence As far as my inquiries have extended, all the Indian nations on this side of the Mississippi assert, that they traveled from the west, from the northwest, or from the south. Many of them speak of their travel across the Mississippi. The Natchez informed Du Pratz, that before they came into the country east of the Mississippi, they dwelt nearly in the south-west, “under the sun” The Muskohge, or Creeks, assert that they crossed the Mississippi about the time that the army of Soto rambled through Florida. || The Chikkasah have told me, that they formerly lived to the west of the Mississippi and that they relinquished that country in obedience to a dream, in which they were advised to leave their western establishment and to go to the country where the sun rises.” (Barton 1798 pg. XCII)

Fu Sang How did the Asian ethnic tribes arrive in North America? A belief that they crossed the Bering ice bridge 30000 years ago goes against the idea that some believers hold that human life began with Adam and Eve 4000 years ago and against DNA evidence. I find the legend of Fu Sang an acceptable alternative vs the Bering land bridge theory. The legend of Fu Sang is that the Chinese sailed to America. The evidence used for this are Chinese style anchors found off the coast of California, legends describing gigantic trees (redwoods found in California) from a new land. Marco Polo is also used as evidence for Fu Sang. There is a 14th century goat skin map that shows what looks like the coast of Alaska what is believed to be passed down from Marco Polo to his posterity."^[129]

Edited December 20, 2018 by nuclearfuels

[The Nehor]

A quarter of a million people crossed the Pacific? Seems unlikely.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

A quarter of a million people crossed the Pacific? Seems unlikely.

Group discount.

[Brant Gardner]

Two quick points.

 

1) The language of the article emphasized haplotype X. That is a giveaway that they are using old information (over 20 years old--ancient in this field) and ignoring the more recent refinements. To be concise, the article's DNA information is incorrect.

2) The article cites Michael Xu on the Shang in Mesoamerica. While there are some interesting connections, Xu's major "proof" was some Chinese characters--which turned out to be pieces of a larger picture that was on a larger piece of jade that was broken into separate celts. In other words--an illusion.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Brant Gardner

[Anijen]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Micmac (https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=438750)"The Cherokees tested had high levels of DNA test markers associated with the Berbers, native Egyptians, Turks, Lebanese, Hebrews and Mesopotamians. Genetically, they are more Jewish than the typical American Jew of European ancestry. So-called “full-blooded” Cherokees had high levels of European DNA and a trace of Asiatic (Native American) DNA. 80 Some “card-carrying” Cherokees had almost no Asiatic DNA. The European DNA contained a much higher level of DNA test markers associated with the Iberian Peninsula that was typical of Caucasian Americans. The level of haplogroup T in the Cherokee (26.9%) approximated the percentage for Egypt (25%), one of the only lands where T attains a major position among the various mitochondrial lineages. The lab claims that their skin color and facial features are primarily Semitic in origin, not Native American ^[123]

I am not an expert in DNA, but I know a few who are. IIRC the study you mentioned above has not been peer reviewed, is from a non-expert, an opinion. Furthermore your link is not to a DNA expert but a link to LDS Freedom Forum and then a link to a personal blog [Dave Mack]. I have not heard of him. I do consider myself to be an expert in the Adena, Hopewell, and Mississippi Valley peoples.  You can visit my Linkedin account for more info about me

 

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Non-LDS, non-Mormon professor Dr. H. Mike Xu who has written a book called Origin of the Olmec Civilization ^[124].

Always good to get more information. A little advice; links to Wikipedia is ok, but a link to a peer reviewed paper or to Dr. Xu would be much better

 

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He then goes on to enumerate the identical cultural traits that are found in both China and Mesoamérica. He has identified a number of Shang characters used in ancient Chinese writings and also found on Olmec monuments in Mexico and Guatemala, and he seems to be able to interpret some of the Olmec glyphs and signs. ^[126] [127]

 

Very interesting

 

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“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”

Be advised; when the goal of the research is to connect Native Americans from the Great Lakes area to the Book of Mormon. The agenda itself will bias the research and cause one to be selective, and will choose only the science that backs their agenda. Other than that some of the links you provide are good (the scientific ones). However, some of your other links (to personal blogs) show that they selected only DNA studies that fit their agenda.

Dr. Ugo Perego, is a world expert in DNA and also an expert in tracing ancestry. Dr. Perego has done excellent research in claims of Book of Mormon ancestry, claimed descendants of Joseph Smith Jr., and much more. See here, Ugo A. Perego, "The Book of Mormon and the Origin of Native Americans From a Maternally Inherited DNA Standpoint, FARMS Review 22/1 2010: 191-227

Another huge concern is; as a result of the Columbian exchange millions of Native Americans died. Some experts claim up to 90% fatality rate for the Native Americans (North and South America). As people of the Old World came over to the Americas they would intermingle with the indigenous people here and have many children. Resulting in tainting DNA tests showing European ancestry. How can a scientist, show ancestral connections that predate the Columbian Exchange without having post Columbus DNA from showing up? (Not an expert, but I do not think it is possible right now)

 

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“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory.”

Correction: The  prevailing theory many years ago was not a "single wave", but many migrations over time via the Bering Land Bridge. That theory has been out for almost 30 years and many migrations have occured and not just over the Bering land bridge, you have mentioned many in your post, so I will not.

 

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Clovis/fluted spear point from Europe. This type of stone projectile is believed to have been brought from the European continent to North America via Bearing Ice Bridge. This spear point is found in Europe and North America but not found in Siberia or East Asia. How was this spear point brought to North America across the Bearing land bridge if it’s not found in Siberia and East Asia?

 

Woot, now we are speaking my language. Although we can trace the origins of projectile points (via midden and geological comparisons of known knapping source sites). All projectile points from all the archaeological, papers, books, I have read were knapped right here in America. The knowledge of how to make the projectile points (Clovis or other period)  could have came with the people when they migrated here, but the points themselves were knapped here. Just an FYI, the larger the projectile point the likelihood the older it is. Big game required large points (e.g. for spear heads), as the big animals died out, smaller projectile points were used. Another little correction; Clovis points have been found all over the world (Argentina).

My theory (shared by many archaeologist), is that many points from the Clovis era, probably started in the area of the Rocky Mountains (abundant source) and as the glaciers receded (causing emerging paths north) and as bison and other animals migrated north using these paths, hunters followed. We can follow the path of the bow and arrow use (first used in Mesoamerica with the atlattle then the bow) which takes the same path as domesticated corn. Corn used in abundance in Mesoamerica, we can trace (by pollen spore samples and other earth core samples) of its use, going North from Mesoamerica and ending on the east coast, eventually into Europe after Columbus.

 

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I believe it can be shown that haplogroup X and or the Jaredites are inexorably linked to this type of stone projectile.

Although you use the word inexorably (meaning: impossible to stop). I believe you are completely in error here. (1) Linking human DNA to a stone, (2) linking DNA to a certain group of people mentioned in a religious book, but not known in the secular world (Jaredites), and finally (3) linking a Clovis era projectile to both DNA and to the Jaredites.

 

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 If the Jaredites brought over the Clovis spear point which I believe they did the Nephites and Lamanites eventually adopted this type of spear point.

The Clovis point can date back to as far as 13,000 years ago (some scholars say longer). The Jaredites date back to the time of the Tower of Babel (when was that? By just guessing; 4500 years ago). The Clovis spear point was in America before the Jaredites, thus your statement that "the Jaredites brought over the Clovis spear point" is not collaborated by the archaeological evidence. 

 

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Major stumbling blocks to the historicity of the Book of Mormon can be shown to be false.

Which "stumbling blocks" are you referring to?

 

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I can only assume based on the evidence the current dating of the Clovis people is wrong and the Clovis point was used and arrived with the Jaredites.

 

 

This is what I mean by selectively choosing which evidence you want to believe in and which evidence you throw out. For example, you quote DNA evidence that supports your theory, but will probably disregard DNA theory that disproves your assumption.  You use evidence of the Clovis era that fits your theory, but then you disregard the accurate dating of the Clovis era. 

 

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But there is also a large amount of evidence disproving the timeline of a 15000BC to 30000BC timeline.

CFR for the evidence that disproves the timeline. Scientific evidence, not opinion, not scripture, but real scientific evidence.

 

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The evidence will show there are certain North American Indian tribes that have Hebrew beliefs,

Again, be careful. Statements like the one you make above can be said about any indigenous people.  Hebrews believe in a God, Tribe A believes in a God, thus, Tribe A must be Hebrews (or their descendants).

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linguistics, artifacts, technology and culture that date to biblical times and not to 15000BC which would predate these technologies and beliefs.

There can be many linguistics, artifacts, etc., that date back to biblical times, it does not mean these linguistics, artifacts, etc., are believed because it dates back to biblical times. Furthermore, the dating back to a book that was not brought into North America until the 15th Century definitely does not mean that indigenous Americans held those beliefs. You are being anachronistic in almost all of your implications.

 

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A great example are the Hopewell and Adena Indians these cultures had an advanced metallurgy to include copper breastplates, copper and silver Jewelry, meteoric iron tools and weapons. The Hopewell and Adena had woven cloth and buttons. The Hopewell had an advanced trade system that stretched for thousands of miles with a highway system.

You are very correct here.

 

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It’s also worth noting that civilizations that had metallurgy, woven cloth and advanced trade system also had a written language.

You are incorrect here. If you are referring to the Hopewell or Adena traditions. CFR for the Hopewell and Adena having a written language. 

 

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The oldest Hopewell archeological site is found in Florida at 500BC these Indians disappeared around 400 AD in the Great Lakes region.

Hors Island Mound (was not Hopewell), dates back to 3400 BCE, making it much older than your "500BC" 

 

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These technologies, cultural and linguistic ties show that haplogroup X arrived during biblical times by ship and not 12000BC to 30000BC through an arctic land migration.

Do not put all your chips on the haplogroup X. Millions of people can be described to have a haplogroup X. Besides having haplogroup X does nothing to prove Native Americans were Jaredites, Nephites, or any other ites.

 

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The Hopewell Indians have haplogroup X DNA. The Adena culture end also matches the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell timeline geography and technology matches the Book of Mormon perfectly and makes them the perfect civilization to be the Nephites.

Well ok, if you say so. However, are you disregarding other evidential considerations?  Other evidence such as; the population of the Hopewell, clearly does not match the population of the Nephites and Lamanites. The Hopewell did not have a written language, etc..

 

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Any dating of haplogroup X by carbon dating past 6000 BC I believe is incorrect because

Because it doesn't fit your narrative. When you control what fits and what doesn't fit your narrative then you are cherry picking your science.

 

 

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As will be shown in the essay North American Indians have beliefs that match the Book of Mormon perfectly.

No, not "perfectly."   Again, you cannot pick which North American Indian beliefs to keep (that match) and throw out other beliefs (that do not match).

 

Quote

To include that Cherokee and Iroquois killed off a white race of Indian, certain Indian tribes sailed to North America and beliefs of written characters and letters. They had a lost gospel taken away from them, beliefs of a flood and Christ-like appearance. They also have Hebrew like language and culture and temple practices. Based on their own beliefs and traditions the Cherokee and Iroquois make up the primary tribes to be the Lamanites.

All speculation, no evidence whatsoever that proves the Cherokee and Iroquois were the primary Lamanite tribes

 

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The Micmac Indians based on the writings of Father Chretian Le Clercq are most likely to have been direct descendants of the Nephites.

Micmac was a spoken Algonquin language, but was NOT a written language. The very few Micmac 17th Century stone carvings were used as a mnemonic device, not as a written language. Micmac did become a written language, but not until Catholic missionaries made a Latin Alphabet interceded with Micmac symbols. Father Le Clerq used the symbols and many more symbols that he made up then added to form his Catholic prayers.  There are no writings in Micmac that are from the time period of the Book of Mormon. In fact there are no Micmac writings period that date before the 17th Century. No one, yet, has shown how Micmac could be used as a writing system before the logograms Le Clerq he himself made up  and added to the 17th Century stone carvings. Scholars have suggested that the Micmac carving on stone made in the 17th Century were attempts by the Algonquin tribe of imitating Europeans when they saw their books and their writings.

 

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To make the statement that there is no DNA, archeological, cultural and linguistic evidence to support the Book of Mormon is completely false the opposite is true.

I agree they [evidences you mentioned] can support a hypothesis that supports the validity of the Book of Mormon. However it is a very gigantic leap to say, that the evidences you presented prove the Jaredites brought Clovis points, that the Algonquin were Lamanites or Nephites, and that the dating is wrong.

 

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The quotes below come from today’s anthropologist. And the 19th 18th 17th century books are used by historians to write the history of the North American Indians. Some people might find using these sources as troublesome. But when it comes to exploring the beliefs culture and traditions of the American Indians the older the source the better

History when written is always (always) biased by the writer. You have to take into account who the author of the history, who is he, what is his beliefs, his biases, his audience he is writing to. You have to take into account the beliefs of the people during the time that history is written.

For example during the Colonial period of the United States, Americans thought the Native Americans living at that time were savages, corrupted over time. However, many, such as Thomas Jefferson, thought that the ancient ancestors of the Native Americans were a great, majestic people. Jefferson and many others sought to prove that the indian ancestors had Hebrew origins, were the lost tribes, or were one remnant of God's chosen people. During this time and these beliefs many things were made to accommodate this belief. This idea was so prevalent that some scrupulous people tried to make fake artifacts either to bolster this belief or to make money off the people who held these beliefs (that the ancient Americans were the lost Hebrew tribes). We can see some of these fakes in museums today, such as; Los Lunas Stone, Michigan Relics, the Bat Creek Stone, etc.. One of the goals Thomas Jefferson gave to Lewis and Clark was to find a Hebrew (or other biblical) connection of the ancient Americans.

The older the source is always nice to have, but that does not mean the older source is better. With advances in science, research, technology, advances in anthropology and archaeology, we can combine the writings in the old books with new modern day investigation to get a better look at the past. 

 

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the statements that Joseph Smith made about Zelph that he was known from the Rocky Mountains to the eastern see (Lake Ontario).

I had the chance to study and compare the projectile point that was supposedly the one that killed Zelph (there is a picture of plaster cast of the original at the museum in Nauvoo). It is definitely not a point that was used in the Book of Mormon times or after. The projectile I studied was very large, used for very large animals. Was not for a bow or atlatl, but most likely used on a large spear. Hard to date because it was plaster, thus I could not study the type of material used (probably obsidian, flint, chert, or granite). Believe it or not, most points can be traced back to their rock deposits by the study of the patterns made in the rock compared to the source site and by dating the midden from where the points were found. Also just an FYI the Zelph story is different in each of the accounts. In McBrides account, he states, that an arrow was found in his [zelph] ribs. The point that has been claimed to be the one that killed Zelph is way too big for an arrow  (about 6 inches in length and 4 inches at its widest point, was thick like a pine cone and not thin like an arrow head). Remember the bigger the projectile point the older it is. If I had too give an expert opinion on the age of the one I studied, I would guess about 3000 plus years.

 

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If the Hopewell Indians are the Nephites we know that the extensive trade system of the Hopewell’s reached to the Rocky Mountains to Lake Ontario and beyond as shown in the haplogroup X map. Hagoth sailed across the West Sea with over 5000 men women and children and he made this voyage twice. The west sea is most likely Lake Michigan. Hagoth would have populated what is now Canada.

You are making assumptions that the Hopewell were a single entity (tribe). They were not. The Hopewell were a group of people who shared a vast trading system that extended over a large area, but they were not all Nephites as your post above suggests. They were not even a single tribe. The Hopewell Tradition is a way  archaeologists describe the time period of this group. Hopewell from the family name the mound was found on and Tradition. Here, Tradition, means a shared concept, like how our families traditions are shared over time. Tradition for this time refers mainly to the mound building, burial rituals, and shared trading routes.  Finally to declare the great lakes as locations for the Book of Mormon is pure speculation on your part.

 

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I know that prophets and apostles made statements that Hagoth sailed to the Polynesian Islands. I believe this to be incorrect. I believe they made these statements based on opinion and the knowledge and accepted theories of that day.

This is surprising for me to read this from an advocate of a Heartland Theory. Most Heartlanders use the words of the Prophets and Apostles to bolster their claims. I agree, when it comes to the geography of the people in the Book of Mormon, all of it is opinion.

 

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...civilizations that had metallurgy and woven cloth

Is not just a Hopewell coincidence.  The Hopewell used cold hammered iron from a meteorite source to form the artifacts we see today. To claim the connection of this knowledge to people of the Book of Mormon is again taking a giant leap. We can see this knowledge applied in every place people lived in the ancient days. Woven cloth has been used in every country peopled as well. A big nothing-burger and really proves no connection to a geographic setting for the Book of Mormon. I could say the same for Indonesia, Mesoamerica, Ireland, etc..

In conclusion, I would strongly suggest, to continue to use science, but do not employ a cherry-picking technique of that science to bolster your beliefs. That is, I like this, but not this...

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Anijen said:

.................................linking a Clovis era projectile to both DNA and to the Jaredites.

The Clovis point can date back to as far as 13,000 years ago (some scholars say longer). The Jaredites date back to the time of the Tower of Babel (when was that? By just guessing; 4500 years ago). The Clovis spear point was in America before the Jaredites, thus your statement that "the Jaredites brought over the Clovis spear point" is not collaborated by the archaeological evidence. 

Correct.  Jaredites came to the New World ca 3100 BC.  The "Tower of Babel" is not mentioned in the BofM.  Instead, they refer to the "great tower."

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...................................You are incorrect here. If you are referring to the Hopewell or Adena traditions. CFR for the Hopewell and Adena having a written language. ..................The Hopewell did not have a written language, etc........................Micmac was a spoken Algonquin language, but was NOT a written language. The very few Micmac 17th Century stone carvings were used as a mnemonic device, not as a written language. Micmac did become a written language, but not until Catholic missionaries made a Latin Alphabet interceded with Micmac symbols.

Yes. The only area of the Americas which had high civilization and writing was Mesoamerica.

Quote

.......................... when it comes to the geography of the people in the Book of Mormon, all of it is opinion.......................................

Not quite.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[nuclearfuels]

Thanks Robert, Anijen, and Brant!

For the record, and so I'm not banned form too many more threads, my OP was taken from multiple sources and I tried to quote those parts but please forgive me if I failed.

[Anijen]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct.  Jaredites came to the New World ca 3100 BC.  The "Tower of Babel" is not mentioned in the BofM.  Instead, they refer to the "great tower."

Yes. The only area of the Americas which had high civilization and writing was Mesoamerica.

Not quite.

Robert, I always look forward to your posts. When you respond to one of my posts is a bonus for me.

I wrote the following; "when it comes to the geography of the people in the Book of Mormon, all of it is opinion." In which you responded; "Not quite." I should have fleshed out that answer a little more, but my post was already way too long, so, I just hit submit. Of course, I agree with you, not all geography quotes by our Church leaders are opinions. However, I was referring to an absolute declaration of a location of a ancient BofM site, they are opinions.  With exceptions; we know where Jerusalem is, where the plates were received (New York). thanks for all you do.

[katherine the great]

Food for thought:

Montana Paleoindian DNA

Siberian skeleton

[sunstoned]

On 12/20/2018 at 8:45 AM, nuclearfuels said:

 

Hullo my friends,

Been readin'

Found these resources to be persuasive.

Looking for challenges and critiques of these sources.

Disagreement is most welcome here.

Cheers!

 

Your references are dated.  This is a cut and paste from the Wiki that references material from Roper and Sorenson from the 1980's.  There has been more recent studies in the areas of native America DNA and linguistics that are quite interesting.

[cdowis]

I know of no one who denies that Nephites/Lamanites lived in North America..  This area is known as the "land northward" in the BOM..

[clarkgoble]

On 12/25/2018 at 12:59 PM, cdowis said:

I know of no one who denies that Nephites/Lamanites lived in North America..  This area is known as the "land northward" in the BOM..

Mexico and Guatemala are part of North America. Just saying.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Mexico and Guatemala are part of North America. Just saying.

I do not think they are included in the Heartland location and, minor correction,  Guatemala is in Central America.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

I do not think they are included in the Heartland location and, minor correction,  Guatemala is in Central America.

Central America isn't considered a continent. Just North America and South America. The dividing line between the two is generally taken to be in Panama although there's not agreement over where exactly. The most common is along the Colombia-Panama border along the Darien Mountains. So Guatemala is therefore in North America. Although I agree the Heartland folks still wouldn't accept it. 

On 12/21/2018 at 12:40 PM, Anijen said:

I wrote the following; "when it comes to the geography of the people in the Book of Mormon, all of it is opinion." In which you responded; "Not quite." I should have fleshed out that answer a little more, but my post was already way too long, so, I just hit submit. Of course, I agree with you, not all geography quotes by our Church leaders are opinions. However, I was referring to an absolute declaration of a location of a ancient BofM site, they are opinions.  With exceptions; we know where Jerusalem is, where the plates were received (New York). thanks for all you do.

I took Robert to be noting that not all opinions are equal in weight of evidence. i.e. that many opinions aren't just unmoored speculation

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by clarkgoble

[RevTestament]

On 12/20/2018 at 10:45 AM, nuclearfuels said:

The Hopewell Indians have haplogroup X DNA. The Adena culture end also matches the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell timeline geography and technology matches the Book of Mormon perfectly and makes them the perfect civilization to be the Nephites.

CFR that the Hopewell specifically had significant amounts of haplogroup X mtDNA. I know of one study in which DNA was tested from an Ohio Hopewell site, and the bodies proved to be mostly haplogroup B mtDNA. The percentage of haplogroup X was 1% or less I think - or was one body. That is certainly not much of a perfect match.

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Haplogroup X DNA distribution is found on the east coast of America with the highest concentration found in the Great Lakes and Canada region. It’s not found in South and Central America and very little on the west coast of America. General world migration theory is that populations would follow the coast line we do not see this with haplogroup X. Scientist have point out dating of haplogroup X entry has been uncertain. Studies have shown population expansion of haplogroup X as stated by scientist happened during biblical times. One would assume that if haplogroup X arrived as late as 12000BC population expansion would have happened much earlier than what the current the evidence shows. Some scientist have theorized that haplogroup X crossed 3000 miles over ice from Europe to America across the Atlantic Ocean during the last ice. This theory is called the Solutrean theory and haplogroup X distribution and Clovis spear points are used as evidence. The theory that groups of people crossed over 3000 miles of frozen Atlantic Ocean ice is hard to swallow for the vast majority of scientist and this theory is not accepted. Any dating of haplogroup X by carbon dating past 6000 BC I believe is incorrect because of the evidence that will be provided and the environmental, uncertain atmospheric conditions of millennial dates, and variable inputs needed for carbon dating and biases of researchers.

The point of this is that theories of the populating of the American continent is fraught with holes. I believe DNA, cultural, and linguistic evidence will show that the American continent was populated through trans-oceanic voyages by ships versus land migrations in artic temperatures across barren ice. A view of geographical locations of South American DNA found in Asia has many locations in South Asia with fairly close proximity to the ocean suggesting ocean these voyages. The Book of Mormon states that there were three trans-oceanic migrations by ship, Lehi’s family, the Mulekites and the Jaredites. Polynesian DNA the legend of Fu sand and the Book of Mormon is all evidence that the Populating of North American was done by ship and not on artic land masses.

“The timing of initial entry into the Americas is uncertain. Through use of estimates of mtDNA diversity and rates of mtDNA evolution, a broad range of dates (11,000–43,000 years BP) have been estimated (Torroni et al. 1994; Bonatto and Salzano 1997a; Lorenz and Smith 1997; Stone and Stoneking 1998). Although researchers have recognized the need to incorporate population history in their estimates, the wide range of dates reported in the literature for the peopling of the Americas suggests that accurate models of Native American population history, accurate models of the evolution of mtDNA, and sufficient sampling of populations in the Americas have not yet emerged.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379119/

As will be shown in the essay North American Indians have beliefs that match the Book of Mormon perfectly. To include that Cherokee and Iroquois killed off a white race of Indian, certain Indian tribes sailed to North America and beliefs of written characters and letters. They had a lost gospel taken away from them, beliefs of a flood and Christ-like appearance. They also have Hebrew like language and culture and temple practices. Based on their own beliefs and traditions the Cherokee and Iroquois make up the primary tribes to be the Lamanites. The Micmac Indians based on the writings of Father Chretian Le Clercq are most likely to have been direct descendants of the Nephites.

Below I have added some quotes about Indian beliefs, culture and language. The quotes and evidence provided is a small sampling and just begins to scratch the surface out of the many books that have been written about the American Indians. To make the statement that there is no DNA, archeological, cultural and linguistic evidence to support the Book of Mormon is completely false the opposite is true. The quotes below come from today’s anthropologist. And the 19th 18th 17th century books are used by historians to write the history of the North American Indians. Some people might find using these sources as troublesome. But when it comes to exploring the beliefs culture and traditions of the American Indians the older the source the better due to the systematic destruction of the Native American way of life in the 18th, 19th and 20th century. One will also notice that statements made will be supported by multiple sources some from different countries and time spans.

Haplogroup X Distribution Haplogroup X distribution matches the historical record given in the Book of Mormon and Bible. According to the Heartland Model Lehi and his family landed somewhere between the Florida Panhandle and Mississippi. Nephi and his family immediately separated from Laman and went into the wilderness. The Seed of Nephi would most likely be the Caucasian DNA marker of haplogroup X and Laman’s seed would have mixed with the Asian ethnic tribes of that area and era. In the Book of Mormon it states that the Nephites constantly had to move North because their traditional lands south were being over taken by the Lamanites. The Nephites also had an extensive trade system that included the use of horses and chariots. We can see from the map that haplogroup X reached to and beyond the Rocky Mountains. That matches the statements that Joseph Smith made about Zelph that he was known from the Rocky Mountains to the eastern see (Lake Ontario). If the Hopewell Indians are the Nephites we know that the extensive trade system of the Hopewell’s reached to the Rocky Mountains to Lake Ontario and beyond as shown in the haplogroup X map. Hagoth sailed across the West Sea with over 5000 men women and children and he made this voyage twice. The west sea is most likely Lake Michigan. Hagoth would have populated what is now Canada. Hagoth’s seed for the most part could have avoided the Nephite genocide which happened in the Great Lakes area and would account for the largest concentration of haplogroup X in Canada. I know that prophets and apostles made statements that Hagoth sailed to the Polynesian Islands. I believe this to be incorrect. I believe they made these statements based on opinion and the knowledge and accepted theories of that day. Prophets and apostles opinions have been wrong before about inconsequential and controversial topics such as the idea that blacks would never receive the Priesthood and that men lived on the moon.

 

As far as the Europe and Middle East distribution goes we know that Manasseh and his seed were in Egypt, Persia, and then went north to what is believed by traditional accounts of the Lost Ten Tribes moving north. Each geographical location mentioned in the Bible and Book of Mormon is accounted for from the origination point of haplogroup X and its move north into Europe. One research paper has pointed out that the Galilee Druze of Israel have the most diversity and the highest concentration of Haplogroup X found on the European and Eurasian continent.

“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”

“We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39÷182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region”

The highest concentrations in the world of haplogroup X is found in the Israeli Galilee Druze at 27%. The North American Indians specifically the Ojibwa have the second highest concentration of haplo group x in the world. Haplogroup X is found in Europe in single digits. This match to the Bible and Book of Mormon is quite remarkable. If haplogroup X traveled with haplogroup A, B, C and D across Asia to North America, why do Ojibwa have the second highest concentration? It’s remarkable that a tribe in North America has almost the same concentration of haplogroup X in Israelis. This represents to me a recent and distinct voyage to the new world probably around 600BC. I believe it also shows that the Ojibwa in particular did not intermarry or populate with the other haplogroups already in the Americas. Haplogroup X is distinct from other haplogroups in every way.

The Book of Mormon points out two distinct civilizations that had metallurgy and woven cloth. The North American continent during the Book of Mormon timeline had two cultures and only two cultures that match this description: the Hopewell and Adena. The timeline given by the Book of Mormon matches the Hopewell culture and the end of the Adena culture. DNA distribution of the European and North American continent is also a match. There is absolutely no way that Joseph Smith could have known about the timelines and DNA distribution of these two cultures.

CFR for the DNA being a match. For one thing haplogroup X mtDNA was already in the Americas as proven by Kennewick man found in Washington state. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14625 He was haplogroup x mtDNA dating 8000-9000 ybp - well before the Hopewell period. The native American clades of haplogroup X mtDNA are mutated enough from their middle-eastern counterparts to estimate that they have been separate for more than 8000 years using standard estimated mutation rates of mtDNA. Kennewick man seems to affirm these pre-Jaredite dates.

The haplogroup X theory has been largely propounded by Rod Meldrum in support of his heartland model, but as time has worn on, evidence has not supported the theory.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 12/20/2018 at 10:45 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Scientists believe that haplogroup X crossed the Bering Ice Bridge sometime around 12000 and 30000 years ago. That belief is problematic because there is no DNA evidence trail that haplogroup X crossed the Bering land bridge.

Asian Haplogroup C4c has a similar age and distribution as haplogroup X2a. If X2a comes from Jerusalem in 600 BC, that isn't easy to explain. This paper offers an explanation.

"Taking into account that C4c is deeply rooted in the Asian portion of the mtDNA phylogeny and is indubitably of Asian origin, the finding that C4c and X2a are characterized by parallel genetic histories definitively dismisses the controversial hypothesis of an Atlantic glacial entry route into North America."

Notice that one of the lead authors on that paper is Ugo Perego, an accomplished geneticist, and active member of the Church.

Also need to acknowledge that a 9000 year old man in Washington State carries the oldest form of haplogroup X2a found in the Americas. So the oldest X2a was in America 6K years before the Jaredites...on the ice bridge side of the continent.

This paper that responds directly to Meldrum's claims:

"Despite — or perhaps because of — this gap in the phylogeographic record for haplogroup X2, the presence of X2a in North America has been cited as evidence for two different trans-Atlantic migrations before European contact. First, Meldrum and Smoot suggested that X2a is the result of an ancient Hebrew migration from the Middle East to North America approximately 2500 cal yr BP. This hypothesis is undermined, though, by four key findings: X2a is not found in the Middle East, none of the X2 lineages present in the Middle East are immediately ancestral to X2a, the date of coalescence for X2a (14,200–17,000 cal yr BP) significantly precedes the hypothesized migration from the Middle East (Perego et al. 2009), and haplogroup X2a was present in North America far earlier than the hypothesized Hebrew migration, having been found in the 8690–8400 cal yr BP Kennewick Man remains from Washington state. Thus, X2a does not provide any evidence for an ancient Hebrew migration from the Middle East to North America."

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/22/2018 at 11:06 PM, sunstoned said:

Your references are dated.  This is a cut and paste from the Wiki that references material from Roper and Sorenson from the 1980's.  There has been more recent studies in the areas of native America DNA and linguistics that are quite interesting.

Thanks Sunstoned.

Can you post some links to non-dated references?

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Also need to acknowledge that a 9000 year old man in Washington State carries the oldest form of haplogroup X2a found in the Americas. So the oldest X2a was in America 6K years before the Jaredites...on the ice bridge side of the continent.
 

Please correlate this 9ka timeline with the Adamic timeline.  The default for this forum is that Adam was the first human  so your argument is based on an unresolved  chronology issue within  the context of this forum.

OR we can completely ignore Adam  and the scriptures in our discussions -- so no Jaredites, no Nephites, etc  and no need for a discussion since they did not exist.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, you can't have it both ways by using chronology as an argument.

Edited December 28, 2018 by cdowis

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

Please correlate this 9ka timeline with the Adamic timeline.  The default for this forum is that Adam was the first human  so your argument is based on an unresolved  chronology issue within  the context of this forum.

The law of adoption solves a lot of the problems with Adam as first human. Pre-Adamites, while always a minority view, isn't alien to Mormon history including Nauvoo era beliefs. The other alternative is simply rejecting the 4000 BC date for Adam's fall. So I'd be careful here. Not sure what "the default for this forum" means, mind you.

11 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Asian Haplogroup C4c has a similar age and distribution as haplogroup X2a. If X2a comes from Jerusalem in 600 BC, that isn't easy to explain.

Yup. Really doesn't do the work some tried to make it do.

 

[sunstoned]

15 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks Sunstoned.

Can you post some links to non-dated references?

 

Here are some references on tracing Native American origins through DNA studies.  This are all scientific studies, and do not address any religious claims:

Mitochondrial haplogroup C4c: A rare lineage entering America through the ice‐free corridor?. American journal of physical anthropology, 147(1), 35-39. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.21614

 Distinctive Paleo-Indian migration routes from Beringia marked by two rare mtDNA haplogroups. Current biology, 19(1), 1-8.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208016187

American Indian prehistory as written in the mitochondrial DNA: a review. Human biology, 81(5/6), 509-521.
http://muse.jhu.edu/article/381865/pdf

Native American mitochondrial DNA analysis indicates that the Amerind and the Nadene populations were founded by two independent migrations. Genetics, 130(1), 153-162.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1346260

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from a 7000-year old brain. Nucleic acids research, 16(20), 9775-9787.
https://academic.oup.com/nar/article-abstract/16/20/9775/2378566?redirectedFrom=PDF

Origin and post-glacial dispersal of mitochondrial DNA haplogroups C and D in northern Asia. PloS one, 5(12), e15214.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015214

 

While not DNA focused, this reference deals with the Kennewick man.

Kennewick Man and the Meaning of Life. U. Chi. Legal F., 275.   https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1447&context=facpub

Edited December 29, 2018 by sunstoned