LGBTQ+ Question

[FunOnlineMan]

 

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I believe the gender of the spirit is the same as the gender of the body.

Spirit genitalia?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

 

Anyone else see a problem with this?

I think the key difference between the two is "uncertain gender".

When the genotype and phenotype is clearly male or female, then gender reassignment surgery becomes questionable in terms of a temple recommend.  I think there is much more wiggle room with intersex individuals where it is not so clear cut. 

[FunOnlineMan]

Just now, pogi said:

I think the key difference between the two is "uncertain gender".

The certainty would lie where otherwise?

 

[pogi]

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

The certainty would lie where otherwise?

 

As I mentioned, genotype and phenotype. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I was throwing cheap shots. This really isn’t that type of thread. My bad. 

But you’re blaming their suicide on their choice to get the surgery. I think that’s a gross oversimplification of the actual problems they would be dealing with.

I believe Clark is saying surgery does not have as a significant effect on suicide rates as we would expect if body identity not aligning with psychological identity was the primary contributor to ideation of suicide. 

If undergoing surgery does not affect suicide rates that much, perhaps another solution that is less drastic should be sought out. (That is “if”, I haven’t studied the rates to know the amount of change adjusted for cultural differences)

Edited December 14, 2018 by Calm

[FunOnlineMan]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

As I mentioned, genotype and phenotype. 

Their spirits, then, has a corresponding  genotype and phenotypes?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, lightparticle said:

Ouch. That's a hurtful statement. To assume that I brought myself to the brink of suicide on several occasions because I was (correctly) afraid of other people was just a really big game of pretend is a massive assumption with no solid basis of logic, reeks of complete ignorance, and essentially declares that I'm just an evil person seeking sexual thrills while challenging God to a duel by slapping him in the face with a frilly white glove.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way. But, it sure came across like that.

No I didn’t mean it that way. 

[lightparticle]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure I'm making an argument.

 

But, you are indeed. You stated that transgender people commit suicide at higher rates, even after surgery, and then posted links to articles that specifically referenced how opposition, oppression, and non-acceptance of them is the primary driver of their suicide rates. Not mental illness as your post stated.

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What "tone?"  Where have I disparaged transgendered people?

Declaring that transgender people are mentally ill and commit suicide because of it is a bit condescending, no? Especially when you have produced neither the qualifications or credentials to make such a declaration. You would clearly become upset if I made declarative assumptions about you based on my limited knowledge of your situation. Can you, perhaps, see how that quickly becomes a "tone" to those of us on the receiving end? No anger meant to you. Just letting you know where my thoughts originated.

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That is no doubt a factor, and in many ways is a very regrettable one.  However, I understand there are other factors as well.

A big problem is that transgendered people ("Group A") are asking - or demanding - that other people ("Group B") alter their (Group B's) behavior to conform to their (Group A's) gender dysphoria.  It's a form of control over me that I do not like and cannot accept.

I'm afraid I can't have any form of compassion for your discomfort on this one. Nobody is asking you to be attracted to a transwoman. Nobody is asking you to date or marry a transwoman. Furthermore, nobody with gender dysphoria is asking anyone to "conform". We are asking for respect. Quite frankly, I have nothing but disdain for Ben Shapiro. Why? Because Ben Shapiro's position comes from a perspective in complete antithesis to what a real disciple of Christ should be doing. I've seen the video, and quite frankly, Mr. Shapiro comes across as an entitled brat that continues to shout over the young woman without letting her finish her statement. What it boils down to is that Shapiro seems to think that a biological body is the only thing that defines us. He would be wrong as we know that spirit and body are two separate things. Carly Fleischman is severely autistic, but is able to communicate clearly using a computer despite major obstacles in nearly all aspects of biological development. Since her biology clearly governs her body, are we to assume that "autistic" is all that she will ever be and that we shouldn't treat her as anything but autistic? No, because who she really is as a person has nothing appreciable to do with her autism.

It is Ben Shapiro's style that everyone seems to flock to. He is rude and ignorant. He likes to throw around the term "facts don't care about your feelings". In order for that to be remotely true, he would have to have his "facts" proven as such. If they are wrong, where does that leave his argument? The real fact is that his "facts" are wrong, and have been proven as such multiple times over. He makes fallacious arguments and comparisons in the hope that his opponents just can't keep up. I'll admit, he's good at it. But, that doesn't make him an expert. He lacks all compassion for anyone that is not like himself. If his daughter scraped her knee while riding her bike and was crying because she thought she was going to die, would he comfort her? Or would he force her to stop crying? It's a fact that she isn't going to die from a scraped knee. But, if "facts don't care about your feelings", then his daughter crying is nothing more than an inconvenience to him. No, Ben Shapiro isn't a genius or the left-killing demon that people say he is. He's a fast talking, arrogant, antagonistic charlatan that can't explain how genetics put his backside on his neck where his head is supposed to be.

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I do not believe that gender is malleable.  Nor is age.  Nor is species.

Whoa there, slugger. Objection! False equivalency. Age is simply a measurement based on the constructs of the rotation of the earth and it's orbit. If you were born on any other planet, suddenly the numbers don't mean much except to your current location. When it becomes an option for a person to be born as a cat to a human mother, let me know. As of right now, we're just discussing gender, and according to our current knowledge and capability, one can be born male, female, or somewhere on the line in-between (see any of the many intersex conditions). I'm not saying we can change our gender on a whim. I can say that my gender is in direct opposition to what my body says it is. Because that single item is well within the realm of possibility while the others are not, your statement is essentially empty.

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I believe the gender of the spirit is the same as the gender of the body.

So, you believe that no mortal condition can cause problems with the "sex" of the body? I would disagree with that statement. Here's why:

• Not XX and not XY: 1 in 1,666
• Klinefelter (XXY): 1 in 1,000
• Androgen insensitivity syndrome: 1 in 13,000; partial: 1 in 130,000
• Classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia: 1 in 13,000; late onset: 1 in 66 of these.
• Vaginal agenesis: 1 in 6,000
• Ovotestes: 1 in 83,000
• 5 alpha reductase deficiency, complete gonadal dysgenesis, hypospadias, Burke Shields, Turners Syndrome, and on and on and on...again...just the ones we actually know about.

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I'm not sure what "got it wrong" means here.  Do you mean subjectively (gender dysphoria) or objectively?

I mean that if the doctor guessed on "identifying" the intended "sex" of the baby, and guessed incorrectly when they try to decide if an intersex baby is biologically male or female.

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In my view, the problem with many of the arguments about transgenderism is the assumption that gender is a social construct.  A malleable thing.  I don't think it is.

I've made no mention of social construct, though the duties and assignments of society were traditionally gendered. Those are a social construct based on assumptions of what a male or female body should be doing daily.

Quote

I'm not sure going along with someon's gender dysphoria is helpful, either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "going along with". Gender dysphoria is merely a descriptor for the condition that describes what a person is experiencing. You're using like a clinical diagnosis.

[lightparticle]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Makes for a hard trial in this life though.  

Yes, it does indeed.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

What is your idea of pretending in this situation?

My idea of pretending in this situation (where someone is transgender but has had no surgery and taken no hormones to alter the body) is if you are physically and genetically male, for example, but live your life as if you are female, you are living under the pretense of being physically female. 

[FunOnlineMan]

 

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

if you are physically and genetically male, for example, but live your life as if you are female, you are living under the pretense of being physically female. 

So, it’s about cultural norms?

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

 

So, it’s about cultural norms?

No, I was thinking more about genetic norms. 

[lightparticle]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My idea of pretending in this situation (where someone is transgender but has had no surgery and taken no hormones to alter the body) is if you are physically and genetically male, for example, but live your life as if you are female, you are living under the pretense of being physically female. 

Again, I would have to disagree with you, solely because your statement is based on the assumption that all who are transgender have equal access to hormones, surgery, and such. Unfortunately, the deck is definitely stacked against us in every way.

First, when someone comes out as transgender, the typical reaction for many is that the person is lying, was abused somehow, or that they are incapable of knowing who they really are. Medical intervention is expensive. Insurance doesn't usually cover any of it, and politicians get involved to keep it that way. In addition, the transgender person is required to convince a therapist, a general practitioner, an endocrinologist, and others that they are who they say they are. Then if they succeed, they need the therapist to actually be sympathetic to their cause or the therapist won't provide the correct documentation to actually get the medical interventions -- that is if there is a provider nearby that can start the process. If there isn't, they're stuck. Even if they have a provider, that single point of failure can now declare their religious opposition to it and deny what amounts to life-saving interventions. If the transgender person is a minor, then parents can stop the whole thing and the person then must go through the hell that is puberty in a body they are already struggling with.

Religions ostracize us and convince their followers we are apostate and evil sinners -- servants of the devil. So, we lose friends and family.

If we are employed and the employer finds out, it is still legal in dozens of states to terminate our employment just because we are transgender and for no other reason. If that occurs, we also lose insurance, making it even more difficult to afford medical interventions. Without employment, we crash into poverty, forcing us into jobs that are dangerous, if they don't discriminate against us in the first place.

Politicians make us sound like perverts whose only purpose is to peek at you while you use the restroom.

The media portrays us as criminals, sexual deviants, showpieces, and freaks.

In the current environment, when one comes out as transgender, most of the world stops seeing us as a "who", and only sees us as a "what". Our condition suddenly defines us and we become nothing more than a subject worthy only of discussion by people who have the power to decide our fate.

When my ward found out about me, I was publicly berated on Facebook by people I trusted as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but at the first test of their love toward me, they turned on me immediately. I was accused of bringing evil into the church and that I didn't belong there. Some implied that I was a threat to their children.

The inability to afford medical interventions doesn't make one any less of who they say they are. The inability to break through all of the obstacles doesn't make the person a pretender. When the whole world is against you, you can only do the best you can until something gives way. Unfortunately, when everything you need is held back by the people who control it, that don't understand you and don't want to understand you, can you perhaps begin to see why we react the way we do when people make claims about pretending, insincerity, or the lack of taking medical steps?

[lightparticle]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I was thinking more about genetic norms. 

How does one determine this? There have been cases of XX males and XY females, and their bodies function normally. There are a myriad of genetic abnormalities that invalidate this as an argument. These are the conditions that we know how to define and identify. How many other possibilities exist? In any of these cases, not one of them actually defines a single aspect of a person's spirit, and to take it one step further, none of this permits anyone to treat a transgender person in any different manner than how Christ would.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the key difference between the two is "uncertain gender".

When the genotype and phenotype is clearly male or female, then gender reassignment surgery becomes questionable in terms of a temple recommend.  I think there is much more wiggle room with intersex individuals where it is not so clear cut. 

For it is written:

Quote

"Wherefore whensoever the genotype and phenotype are assuredly male or female, thus saith the Lord of hosts, gender reassignment surgery shall be questionable and thou shalt not allow such a person into the congregation of the LORD.  But verity, there mayest be much more wiggle room with intersex individuals whensoever not be so clear cut. Only two genders, thou flakes of snow." Makinthisupaswegoalong, 5:37

 

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Hi. 

Could a trans man be sealed to a trans woman in the temple? 

If it was possible, In the temple, the whole trans thing would be put aside.  The trans woman would be the man and the trans man would be the woman.  A trans man could not assume the position of Adam and a trans woman could not assume the position of eve. 

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I really don't know if pretending to be a different gender affects temple worthiness or not.

Pretending is one thing but when it comes to priesthood and other temple roles its a completely different.   A trans man can not say "I identify as a man.  Ordain me to the priesthood."  Nope. Not going to happen.

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

 

Anyone else see a problem with this?

Actually not.  In the case of the adult, the person is making the assertion based on how they identify without objective indicators to decide.  A newborn is not making the decision for themselves.  It is being made for them most likely based on objective indicators like biology.  Even in cases where there is hard to tell, there may be biological things that point the person in a certain direction. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

 

Spirit genitalia?

Sure.  We have the same form in spirit as in the body.  We are resurrected with the same basic body though in perfect form so everything will be the same.    All man made alterations like tattoos, implants, and reassignment surgery stuff does not come with the resurrection.

[lightparticle]

15 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

...made for them most likely based on objective indicators like biology.  Even in cases where there is hard to tell, there may be biological things that point the person in a certain direction. 

Most likely? So, what you're saying is that we should make definitive physical determinations (based on our limited knowledge of these conditions) and ecclesiastical punitive decisions about a person's identity without their input and in total disregard of who their spirit could actually be, and then punish them when they go against that decision? So, you think that if there is a physical condition aspect to this that their body won't be restored in the resurrection to what their body should have been?

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, lightparticle said:

Most likely? So, what you're saying is that we should make definitive physical determinations (based on our limited knowledge of these conditions) and ecclesiastical punitive decisions about a person's identity without their input and in total disregard of who their spirit could actually be, and then punish them when they go against that decision? So, you think that if there is a physical condition aspect to this that their body won't be restored in the resurrection to what their body should have been?

The resurrection restores the body but it is perfect and immortal.  God knows what our bodies should be and he will restore it to his standard of perfection.  However when assigning spirits to bodies, there is not incompetency going among God or whomever assigns spirits to whatever developing baby in a woman where female spirits are being accidentally put into male bodies or vice versa.  I am male not because I identify as male. I am male because that is what I am regardless if whether I want to be that or not. 

 

I am not about punishing anyone.  I believe people have the agency to do whatever they want as long as their agency does not infringe on the agency of another.  I don't have a problem with transgender people as long as they don't expect or demand that I see them as how they identify as.  If Bruce Jenner wants to be Caitlyn Jenner and do what he does, that is fine with me.  He is still Bruce to me personally and that will never change.

[Glenn101]

5 hours ago, lightparticle said:

We don't commit suicide at higher rates because of mental illness or any other of the terribly overused and fundamentally incorrect arguments that traditionally get thrown at us. We commit suicide at much higher rates because the behavior and assumptions of unaccepting people demands it of us.

Anyone who seriously considers suicide or attempts suicide whether fatally or not, has mental health issues. Issues that do not originate with acceptance and understanding but can be exacerbated by mocking and bigotry. It is interesting to note that the the suicide rate among the American Negro population is less than half of of the white population, and has that has historically been the case even during the decades where discrimination against them was pretty much unbridled. Then, the suicide rate among the native Americans is almost twice that of the while population. There are just too many variables to reduce it down to one thing.

Glenn

[katherine the great]

6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

 

Anyone else see a problem with this?

YES! In the past, it has been the default view that such children should be raised as a female--even if they have a y chromosome. This is done because it is EASIER. It is no longer thought to be the best way. Many documented cases of gender assignment to female if there is a y chromosome present has caused extreme distress later in the child's life. They often identify as male. The current medical opinion is that intersexed people are fine just as they are. Their gender identity will reveal itself to them over time and the child should make this decision themselves when they come of age. This course naturally will result in other challenges in a binary culture where we expect a child to be either a boy or a girl, but that is simply not always the case. I just got through lecturing on biological sex/intersex and gender issues. Even though I am LDS I completely reject the idea that gender is eternal. Our "maleness" and "femaleness" is influenced by chromosomes and hormones. Without proper receptors of male hormones, we would all develop as female. There are many, many women walking around with a y chromosome but their bodies present as female because they were not able to receive the androgens in utero (AIS-androgyn insensitivity syndrome). There are up to 40 different conditions that cause babies to be born intersexed in some respect. 

These physical male/female traits are determined early in development but the masculinization of the brain happens later. There are many things that can interfere with this process as well but it is less well understood. This is where I suspect many of the transgender conditions originate.

[lightparticle]

55 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

However when assigning spirits to bodies, there is not incompetency going among God or whomever assigns spirits to whatever developing baby in a woman where female spirits are being accidentally put into male bodies or vice versa.  I am male not because I identify as male. I am male because that is what I am regardless if whether I want to be that or not. 

Where to start with this one...

A forming baby is still a mortal body. Stuff happens. The entire body is imperfect, including the genital bits. God doesn’t just reach down a celestial hand and cover everyone’s gonads. Lots of things happen that cause malformations. All developing bodies start as female — all of them! It requires a complex set of hormones and proteins that sets development on the path to male. Stuff goes wrong all the time. Go up the thread and find the non-exhaustive list of developmental issues that we’ve discovered. I wrote a bunch of them. How many others aren’t we aware of?

Do you honestly and seriously believe that I’m transgender because I WANT to be?! I don’t “identify” myself as female just for the thrills. Your claim completely ignores everything I’ve been through — every spiritual struggle, every bit of prayers, temple visits, blessings, and most importantly - my personal revelation. I should just stop now because clearly you know my story better than I, and my situation better than Elder Oaks (see the link in the thread where he says that they have a lot of learning to do).

Lastly, your inability to respect people for who they are is precisely what drives transgender people away from the church rather than bringing them to it. That sounds like someone’s spiritual plan, but not the plan of the one whose name is on the church building. But, it’s up to you. How you treat others different from you speaks volumes about your character.

[lightparticle]

43 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Anyone who seriously considers suicide or attempts suicide whether fatally or not, has mental health issues. Issues that do not originate with acceptance and understanding but can be exacerbated by mocking and bigotry. It is interesting to note that the the suicide rate among the American Negro population is less than half of of the white population, and has that has historically been the case even during the decades where discrimination against them was pretty much unbridled. Then, the suicide rate among the native Americans is almost twice that of the while population. There are just too many variables to reduce it down to one thing.

Glenn

Wow. Thank you for “mansplaining” how I feel. Please don’t make clinical diagnoses of something you have no knowledge of. You boiled it down to one thing (mental illness), then contradicted your own statement by saying there are too many variables to be one thing.

Newsflash: I’m transgender and I’m perfectly capable of telling you who I am, what I’ve been through, and precisely what drove me to suicidal ideation. Rather than telling me why I feel the way I do, how about you pay attention to me telling you why I feel the way that I do. I promise that it won’t hurt to learn from me.