So, why get baptized for DEAD people

[LittleNipper]

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? And did Jesus ever get baptized for the dead? Are we not to follow His example and not make rituals of our own?

Edited October 1, 2018 by LittleNipper
addition

[3DOP]

Little Nipper...

Mormons have a better explanation for I Cor 15:29, than any Evangelical explanation with which I am familiar. Mormons have missions to the living without forgetting the dead. One can "worry", to use your expression, about all souls, whether they are alive or dead.

[Storm Rider]

This is not a complicated topic, but for those outside the Church of Jesus Christ, it is often new teaching.

To answer your questions in order:

1. The Church of Jesus Christ has one of the largest missionary groups in the world. Those missionaries sole purpose is to find and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and invite them to be baptized in keeping with the Savior's teaching on baptism - that it is required of all those to enter heaven.  The Church is concerned about both the living and the dead.
2. After the crucifixion, Jesus went and taught those in spirit prison. What is the value of teaching the dead? Why did Jesus do that?  Are we to emulate Jesus' example?  Yes, and given that the dead cannot enter the waters of baptism as spirits, the scriptures do teach that the ordinance of baptism for the dead was practiced during the lives of the first apostles. 
3. We follow his example, but your logic demands that if it is not specifically taught as an ordinance by the Savior than we can do nothing. This assumption is erroneous on multiple levels. First, it closes the door on all revelation - that God has spoken once and now must shut the doors to heaven - which is a conflict with the teachings of the Bible - and all those additional prophets and apostles that the Bible teaches would exist must not take to God ever again. Second, the Church not only follows the teachings of the Bible but also teaches that God speaks to prophets today. This ordinance was not made of man but was directed by God and we strive to be obedient to his command. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, 3DOP said:

One can "worry", to use your expression, about all souls, whether they are alive or dead.

Which is certainly the Catholic practice, too. We pray for the dead, while we try to serve the living. All Souls Day is approaching soon-ish, which is a perfect example of this. I live in Southern New Mexico, where there is a big focus on the Day of the Dead. We remember those who have passed, we pray for their souls, yet we still serve the living.

 Little Nipper, you have set up a false dichotomy. 

[Jane_Doe]

41 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? 

Because I love ALL my neighbors.  Not just the living ones.

[JAHS]

Your'e right about one thing. There are a lot of our neighbors out there to whom we should be introducing the gospel. We just need to open our mouths more.
Aside from that proxy baptism is the only logical way that those who have died can have the work done for them.  Jesus said 
 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."  (Mark 16: 16)
 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)
So important is baptism that Jesus Himself was baptized.  (Matt 3: 15)

How else can those who never had the chance be baptized?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? And did Jesus ever get baptized for the dead? Are we not to follow His example and not make rituals of our own?

“So, why get baptized for DEAD people?”

That is almost verbatim what Paul said in 1 Corinth.  Was that intentional or ironic?

The practice of baptism for the dead would be absurd indeed if the dead rise not at all...but they do!

Death is not permanent.  Christ conquered death as you well know, so why should we forget the dead as if they will not rise again, in need of baptism?

Edited October 1, 2018 by pogi

[Storm Rider]

49 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which is certainly the Catholic practice, too. We pray for the dead, while we try to serve the living. All Souls Day is approaching soon-ish, which is a perfect example of this. I live in Southern New Mexico, where there is a big focus on the Day of the Dead. We remember those who have passed, we pray for their souls, yet we still serve the living.

 Little Nipper, you have set up a false dichotomy. 

Krister Stendahl used the descriptor of "holy envy" when he talked about the Church of Jesus Christ's teaching on baptism for the dead. I think I feel a little of the same thing for Catholic teachings of praying for the dead. Our ancestors, friends, and family may be gone from this earth, but they are not forgotten. 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which is certainly the Catholic practice, too. We pray for the dead, while we try to serve the living. All Souls Day is approaching soon-ish, which is a perfect example of this. I live in Southern New Mexico, where there is a big focus on the Day of the Dead. We remember those who have passed, we pray for their souls, yet we still serve the living.

 Little Nipper, you have set up a false dichotomy. 

The Day of the Dead observance is depicted in the movie “Coco.”

Earlier this year, during the RootsTech family history conference in Salt Lake City sponsored by our church, the Latina singer who was featured in the video for the main song from that Disney animated feature (and I don’t recall her name) spoke at the conference and performed that song. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

“So, why get baptized for DEAD people?”

That is almost verbatim what Paul said in 1 Corinth.  Was that intentional or ironic?

The practice of baptism for the dead would be absurd indeed if the dead rise not at all...but they do!

Death is not permanent.  Christ conquered death as you well know, so why should we forget the dead as if they will not rise again, in need of baptism?

Give this man a  cigar! 

A chocolate one of course.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? And did Jesus ever get baptized for the dead? Are we not to follow His example and not make rituals of our own?

Where a person "lives", or where that person "lived", does not meant they do not need to Gospel, and all of it's saving ordinances. Jesus did do vicarious work for us and all mankind, and he afford those his the early Church to also perform vicarious work for the dead. The Gospel did not begin here on this earth, nor will it end here. So, when others cannot get it all their ordinances completed in this life, then Jesus Christ allows to to act, "for and in their behalf". To get it done, which is why we have Temples, and need people will to help others obtain salvation, and become "saved". This is why the scriptures teach that we will, "become Saviors on Mount Zion", it is gift given to the worthy, and that gift can be given to others.    

[Avatar4321]

Because the resurrection is a reality. The Lord has given us a commission to take the Gospel to all the living and dead. We are to declare liberty to the captives

[MiserereNobis]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Day of the Dead observance is depicted in the movie “Coco.”

Earlier this year, during the RootsTech family history conference in Salt Lake City sponsored by our church, the Latina singer (and I don’t recall her name) spoke and performed the main song from that Disney animated feature. 

The small village I live in is very traditional and very Catholic. On the Day of the Dead (All Souls Day, November 2), people set up their altars in the town plaza. There are celebrations all day. In the evening, the priest leads a procession from the plaza to the cemetery. I live on that road. They line the road with luminarias. People walk to the cemetery carrying candles to pray at the graves of their ancestors. It is a beautiful day of celebration and prayer.

"Coco" was a fantastic and fun movie. It, understandably so for a movie, left out the Catholicism that is hard in reality to divorce from Day of the Dead.

I did a quick google image search and here is picture from one corner of the plaza during Dia de los Muertos. You can see a couple of altars and the church in the background, too.

And yes, we are in the United States, though we didn't want to be (my village was the literal sanctuary for those who didn't want to be in the US after the Mexican-American war. It was supposed to be on the Mexican side of the newly negotiated border so people flocked there. Alas, new surveying and new treaties made us part of the US, but we still firmly and loudly celebrate 5.5 and 9.16 with Mexican flags everywhere, ha).

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? And did Jesus ever get baptized for the dead? Are we not to follow His example and not make rituals of our own?

Yeshua apparently never baptized anybody, but had His apostles do it. However, He was concerned for the dead, and offered them an opportunity to accept Him, and be resurrected with Him. 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Am I concerned for my ancestors? Yes, I am. I love the idea of offering them every chance there is to accept Christ and progress in His perfection.  Am I concerned for my fellow man? Yes, I am, but many have had their chance to hear the gospel message and have not accepted it.

The members of the Church of Jesus Christ have offered millions of deceased the opportunity to fully enter covenants with their Savior. We ARE following His example, who Himself went to teach them His gospel while He was in spirit awaiting His own resurrection. Amen.

[JAHS]

39 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The small village I live in is very traditional and very Catholic. On the Day of the Dead (All Souls Day, November 2), people set up their altars in the town plaza. There are celebrations all day. In the evening, the priest leads a procession from the plaza to the cemetery. I live on that road. They line the road with luminarias. People walk to the cemetery carrying candles to pray at the graves of their ancestors. It is a beautiful day of celebration and prayer.

"Coco" was a fantastic and fun movie. It, understandably so for a movie, left out the Catholicism that is hard in reality to divorce from Day of the Dead.

I did a quick google image search and here is picture from one corner of the plaza during Dia de los Muertos. You can see a couple of altars and the church in the background, too.

And yes, we are in the United States, though we didn't want to be (my village was the literal sanctuary for those who didn't want to be in the US after the Mexican-American war. It was supposed to be on the Mexican side of the newly negotiated border so people flocked there. Alas, new surveying and new treaties made us part of the US, but we still firmly and loudly celebrate 5.5 and 9.16 with Mexican flags everywhere, ha).

 

When I was on my mission in Austria my companion and I took part in that procesion on the Day of the Dead. The procession ended at the cemetery where the local priest went through and blessed all the graves.
It was an interesting and educational experience.

[Scott Lloyd]

34 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yeshua apparently never baptized anybody, but had His apostles do it. However, He was concerned for the dead, and offered them an opportunity to accept Him, and be resurrected with Him. 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Am I concerned for my ancestors? Yes, I am. I love the idea of offering them every chance there is to accept Christ and progress in His perfection.  Am I concerned for my fellow man? Yes, I am, but many have had their chance to hear the gospel message and have not accepted it.

The members of the Church of Jesus Christ have offered millions of deceased the opportunity to fully enter covenants with their Savior. We ARE following His example, who Himself went to teach them His gospel while He was in spirit awaiting His own resurrection. Amen.

Jesus did indeed baptize. You are neglecting the verse in the JST that was corrected to read that Jesus baptized but not so many as did his disciples. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Little Nipper...

Mormons have a better explanation for I Cor 15:29, than any Evangelical explanation with which I am familiar. Mormons have missions to the living without forgetting the dead. One can "worry", to use your expression, about all souls, whether they are alive or dead.

Hi 3DOP! Good to see you again. I am impressed with your frank and truthful statement!  Boy have I heard the rationalizations on this one. Some try to claim that Greek pagans baptized for their dead to get resurrected, and were the "they" Paul was referring to... Ha! That certainly would make for an interesting pagan sect if there were a shred of evidence for it...

[RevTestament]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Jesus did indeed baptize. You are neglecting the verse in the JST that was corrected to read that Jesus baptized but not so many as his disciples. 

Thanks for pointing that out - fergot bout that one.

[Scott Lloyd]

Looks like Little Nipper pitched a softball in opening this thread. 

[RevTestament]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Looks like Little Nipper pitched a softball in opening this thread. 

He, he. I don't mind us hitting some homeruns off of that! It's all for the glory of Christ. 

Before you know it, he'll be spouting off rationalizations from every Protestant NT Commentary there is...  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

What is the point of worrying about people you may have never met when there are thousands out there that are still living who are neighbors? And did Jesus ever get baptized for the dead? Are we not to follow His example and not make rituals of our own?

We do. We send lots of people out to spread the word to the living as well. I spent two years of my life doing it. Trying to emulate the Savior. How are you doing on that score?

Protip: I don't think posting on this message board is emulating the example of Jesus. Just saying.....

[Garden Girl]

One of my favorite LDS author/scholars is John Tvedtnes (just recently deceased), and one of his papers "Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices," wherein he states that in his research for the paper he came across "fifteen early Christian documents that speak of baptism for the dead, along with several Mandean and Jewish texts" that he would be including in a future publication... we LDS have cited the l Cor passage as an example of the practice (the only biblical reference).  Dr. Tvedtnes cited 15 more from various texts...

GG

[BCSpace]

Why baptize for the dead?

So they can be saved: 1 Peter 3:18-21
So we all can be judged by the same standard: 1 Peter 4:6

 

[The Nehor]

Another plus is that they resist much less. You don’t need as much chloroform as you do with the living.

[Stargazer]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:53 AM, Storm Rider said:

Krister Stendahl used the descriptor of "holy envy" when he talked about the Church of Jesus Christ's teaching on baptism for the dead. I think I feel a little of the same thing for Catholic teachings of praying for the dead. Our ancestors, friends, and family may be gone from this earth, but they are not forgotten. 

Occasionally in my prayers, I ask the Lord to let my deceased wife know that I miss her and still love her deeply.  And I hope that my other deceased loved ones (a number which increases year by year) know that I love them and care about them.

5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

That is why we care about the DEAD.