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Slippery Treasures and EModE


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3 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don’t think we need to demand that the tolerances be that close. treasures were slipping away in the earth in both contexts, and that’s a strong enough shared idea all by itself. 

We can't pretend both contexts (19th Century and early modern) are equally valid. I think I've shown that the early modern model is a much better match. This doesn't prove the early modern model is right, of course. But it does indicate that the 19th Century model is relatively weak.

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you. This kind of information is what I was hoping to learn rather than rehashing the treasure seeking episodes.

I would suppose people in most times and places have tried to hide their possessions from invading armies. Isn’t this what was going on in the hills and caves around Jerusalem during the Roman wars?

Even in midern times.  It’s human nature  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/French-town-unveils-Jewish-treasure-hidden-before-Holocaust-326767/amp

Right. The context of invading armies is important in making sense of the story. There were no invading armies to avoid in upstate New York in the 1820's.

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1 hour ago, JarMan said:

We can't pretend both contexts (19th Century and early modern) are equally valid. I think I've shown that the early modern model is a much better match. This doesn't prove the early modern model is right, of course. But it does indicate that the 19th Century model is relatively weak.

The part your not taking into account when weighting the contexts is the dictator of the text! The Early Modern context is a great fit, but JS role as dictator and treasure seeker strengthens that context.

Edited by Benjamin Seeker
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29 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

The part your not taking into account when weighting the contexts is the dictator of the text! The Early Modern context is a great fit, but JS role as dictator and treasure seeker strengthens that context.

My proposed early modern Book of Mormon author researched and wrote about the law of buried treasure in various civilizations throughout history. This strengthens my particular early modern model. 

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1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Do you know if Carmack/Skousen has compared your proposed translator to the BOM usage rates?

My proposed author is Hugo Grotius. As far as I can tell he knew some English but not enough to write the Book of Mormon in English. I propose that he wrote it originally in Latin or perhaps in French. There would need to be a translator (or translators) to render the English. I don’t have a proposal for the translator, though.

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18 minutes ago, JarMan said:

My proposed author is Hugo Grotius. As far as I can tell he knew some English but not enough to write the Book of Mormon in English. I propose that he wrote it originally in Latin or perhaps in French. There would need to be a translator (or translators) to render the English. I don’t have a proposal for the translator, though.

Oh, interesting. Maybe we should take this line of conversation to a different thread, but I’d be interested in the details. Sounds like you don’t believe the BOM is historical or did you mean Hugo was a translator?

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1 hour ago, JarMan said:

My proposed author is Hugo Grotius. As far as I can tell he knew some English but not enough to write the Book of Mormon in English. I propose that he wrote it originally in Latin or perhaps in French. There would need to be a translator (or translators) to render the English. I don’t have a proposal for the translator, though.

Interesting. So you would discount the existence of the plates?

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1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Oh, interesting. Maybe we should take this line of conversation to a different thread, but I’d be interested in the details. Sounds like you don’t believe the BOM is historical or did you mean Hugo was a translator?

I don’t believe in historicity in the traditional sense. But I don’t believe it’s 100% fiction either. I would say the Book of Mormon is something along the lines of inspired fiction based loosely on actual events. 

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17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting. So you would discount the existence of the plates?

Not necessarily. I believe there probably were actual plates. I just don’t know who made them or what was on them. They could have been made by an ancient American, an early modern European, or a 19th Century person. 

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3 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Not necessarily. I believe there probably were actual plates. I just don’t know who made them or what was on them. They could have been made by an ancient American, an early modern European, or a 19th Century person. 

I read that Grotius proposed a European source for the American natives. Did he write any fiction?

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1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Oh, interesting. Maybe we should take this line of conversation to a different thread, but I’d be interested in the details. Sounds like you don’t believe the BOM is historical or did you mean Hugo was a translator?

It is off topic, but very interesting. Perhaps a thread dedicated to it would be helpful.

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2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I read that Grotius proposed a European source for the American natives. Did he write any fiction?

He actually proposed European, African, and Asian sources for the Americas. And he did write fiction. His first work was about Adam and Eve in the garden. In other threads I’ve shown similarities between his story and the Book of Mormon Garden of Eden story. He also wrote a play about Christ’s Passion and one about Joseph in Egypt. I’ve tried to show a Book of Mormon comparison with the Joseph story, as well. I also believe he uses chiasmus in it. I haven’t studied his play about Christ very closely yet but there should be some elements in it to compare to the Book of Mormon. 

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8 hours ago, JarMan said:

He actually proposed European, African, and Asian sources for the Americas. And he did write fiction. His first work was about Adam and Eve in the garden. In other threads I’ve shown similarities between his story and the Book of Mormon Garden of Eden story. He also wrote a play about Christ’s Passion and one about Joseph in Egypt. I’ve tried to show a Book of Mormon comparison with the Joseph story, as well. I also believe he uses chiasmus in it. I haven’t studied his play about Christ very closely yet but there should be some elements in it to compare to the Book of Mormon. 

My favorite edition of the Book of Mormon is Donald Parry's Poetic Parallelisms in the Book of Mormon: The Complete Text Reformatted. Chiasmus is just one of over 20 forms of parallelism that permeate the book. As I thumb through it, I find very few pages that do not have multiple examples of various parallelisms, some simple, some very complex. Those pages without seem to be in strictly historical narratives such as descriptions of warfare or political intrigue. Revelational, doctrinal and didactic sections are chock-full of parallelisms. I think this is an unmistakable and unique signature of the author of the book.

Would it be reasonable to assume that if Grotius is the source of the EModE text that they would also abound in his other works? Do you know if they do? Some easy-to-spot parallelisms come to mind....many ands, simple and extended alternates, gradation, lists of synonymous words. 

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4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My favorite edition of the Book of Mormon is Donald Parry's Poetic Parallelisms in the Book of Mormon: The Complete Text Reformatted. Chiasmus is just one of over 20 forms of parallelism that permeate the book. As I thumb through it, I find very few pages that do not have multiple examples of various parallelisms, some simple, some very complex. Those pages without seem to be in strictly historical narratives such as descriptions of warfare or political intrigue. Revelational, doctrinal and didactic sections are chock-full of parallelisms. I think this is an unmistakable and unique signature of the author of the book.

Would it be reasonable to assume that if Grotius is the source of the EModE text that they would also abound in his other works? Do you know if they do? Some easy-to-spot parallelisms come to mind....many ands, simple and extended alternates, gradation, lists of synonymous words. 

I think it's quite reasonable to look for poetic forms in Grotius' writings that resemble Book of Mormon poetic forms. The problem I am having is that we don't have English translations that make this easy. Here's an excerpt from his Joseph in Egypt play translated into English in 1652 by Francis Goldsmith:

Quote

Nor shall it be rich Pharian soil, in vain, 
That thou the Hebrews e're didst entertain. 
Whil'st to a race belov'd of God, thou kind 
Shalt prove, all things to prosper thou shalt find 
Above thy wish. Nature her self shall bee 
Thy handmaid. There will come an age with thee 
When of our Nation famous Kings shall make 
A League, and Israel a wife shall take 
From Ægypt. Again some of th'Hebrew Nation 
Shall hither come and make a new plantation. 
Afterwards, when descending from the skies 
He foretold by so many Prophesies, 
The Worlds Redeemer, Prince of piety, 
Shall visit mortals, he shall hither fly. 
A faithfull place of refuge this shall be, 
And safe to him an infant exile. Hee 
The same Lawes both unto my Country-men 
The Hebrews, and unto th'Egyptians then 
Shall give, and Nile and Iordan teach in one
Channell to meet of pure Religion.

I suspect the translator's insistence on making the English version rhyme corrupts some of the underlying Latin poetical structure. Even so, there may be chiasmus buried in there.

Quote

A There will come an age with thee 
When of our Nation famous Kings shall make 
A League, and Israel a wife shall take 
From Ægypt.

B Again some of th'Hebrew Nation 


C Shall hither come and make a new plantation. 

D Afterwards, when descending from the skies 

E He foretold by so many Prophesies, 

E The Worlds Redeemer, Prince of piety, 

D Shall visit mortals, he shall hither fly. 

C A faithfull place of refuge this shall be, 
 

B And safe to him an infant exile.

A Hee 
The same Lawes both unto my Country-men 
The Hebrews, and unto th'Egyptians then 
Shall give, and Nile and Iordan teach in one
Channell to meet of pure Religion.

There may be an additional layer or two of chiastic form buried in A but, again, it's tough to tell with this kind of translation. This passage, which has Joseph prophesying of future events - a vaticinium ex eventu - is literally the only place I have looked so far to try and find chiasmus. The fact that I found a possible match on my first try makes me believe chiasmus has got to be in there. (The reason I was looking at this particular passage is because it has some similarities to Joseph's vaticinium ex eventu in 2 Nephi 3.)

Besides Grotius' well known three plays, he has also written thousands of lines of poetry. He was both a poet and a student of poetry. He translated many of the classical Greek plays into Latin. He had an unmistakable influence on some of the greatest poets of his time such as John Milton and Joost van den Vondel. Ultimately, though, I will need to find some more literal translations of his poetry into English or else learn Latin in order to do start doing an analysis.

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On 9/30/2018 at 1:07 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don’t think we need to demand that the tolerances be that close. treasures were slipping away in the earth in both contexts, and that’s a strong enough shared idea all by itself. 

Yes, and that is exactly the rationale used by Dan Vogel, Mike Marquardt, and Mike Quinn in assembling typical accounts of the use of vernacular magic in the 19th century.  Rods, seerstones, buried treasure, sacrificial blood, etc., can all be found in Joseph Smith's day.  The problem with that facile observation is that it can only apply to the BofM if the BofM was written in 19th century English.  Since it was written in EModE we must perforce go back to that period, when vernacular magic was even more commonly available, and the likelihood so much greater that it would all fit together.  That is what Jarman has rightly been concentrating on

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and that is exactly the rationale used by Dan Vogel, Mike Marquardt, and Mike Quinn in assembling typical accounts of the use of vernacular magic in the 19th century.  Rods, seerstones, buried treasure, sacrificial blood, etc., can all be found in Joseph Smith's day.  The problem with that facile observation is that it can only apply to the BofM if the BofM was written in 19th century English.  Since it was written in EModE we must perforce go back to that period, when vernacular magic was even more commonly available, and the likelihood so much greater that it would all fit together.  That is what Jarman has rightly been concentrating on

Robert, I do find the EmodE data convincing, but I’m personally undecided  on how it relates to the BOM translation as of yet. Frankly, there is no clear cut answer to the origin of the text as the data stands. It’s worth remembering that Skousen and Carmack don’t put the text into a purely EmodE category anyways, so i think it’s very safe to keep an open mind here.

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1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Robert, I do find the EmodE data convincing, but I’m personally undecided  on how it relates to the BOM translation as of yet. Frankly, there is no clear cut answer to the origin of the text as the data stands. It’s worth remembering that Skousen and Carmack don’t put the text into a purely EmodE category anyways, so i think it’s very safe to keep an open mind here.

I can think of two possible reasons for this:

1) The original EModE was reworked at a later time.

2) The whole thing really is consistent with EModE but the evidence hasn't been found yet.

Either explanation still points to an early modern production. Also, I agree we ought to keep an open mind.

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On 9/30/2018 at 6:37 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

The part your not taking into account when weighting the contexts is the dictator of the text! The Early Modern context is a great fit, but JS role as dictator and treasure seeker strengthens that context.

 With all due respect to Skousen, there was no one dictating anything, early modern or otherwise.  Joseph Smith claimed that he "translated" the plates. This is also something that has been and still is taught by the prophets.  It is also taught in all approved church lesson manuals.   IMO, it is not a very convincing theory if you have to throw Joseph Smith and all modern prophets under the bus to make it work.

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5 hours ago, JarMan said:

I can think of two possible reasons for this:

1) The original EModE was reworked at a later time.

2) The whole thing really is consistent with EModE but the evidence hasn't been found yet.

Either explanation still points to an early modern production. Also, I agree we ought to keep an open mind.

Skousen & Carmack have already found several of the claimed later words or expressions in the BofM actually appear in EModE times.  Those cases of continuity into later periods do not conclusively show later influence.

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2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

He makes a valid point on why slippery treasure is mentioned in the BoM.  A point that I find convincing.

Great idea for another thread.

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10 hours ago, JarMan said:

I think it's quite reasonable to look for poetic forms in Grotius' writings that resemble Book of Mormon poetic forms. The problem I am having is that we don't have English translations that make this easy. Here's an excerpt from his Joseph in Egypt play translated into English in 1652 by Francis Goldsmith:

I suspect the translator's insistence on making the English version rhyme corrupts some of the underlying Latin poetical structure. Even so, there may be chiasmus buried in there.

There may be an additional layer or two of chiastic form buried in A but, again, it's tough to tell with this kind of translation. This passage, which has Joseph prophesying of future events - a vaticinium ex eventu - is literally the only place I have looked so far to try and find chiasmus. The fact that I found a possible match on my first try makes me believe chiasmus has got to be in there. (The reason I was looking at this particular passage is because it has some similarities to Joseph's vaticinium ex eventu in 2 Nephi 3.)

Besides Grotius' well known three plays, he has also written thousands of lines of poetry. He was both a poet and a student of poetry. He translated many of the classical Greek plays into Latin. He had an unmistakable influence on some of the greatest poets of his time such as John Milton and Joost van den Vondel. Ultimately, though, I will need to find some more literal translations of his poetry into English or else learn Latin in order to do start doing an analysis.

Thank you for taking the time to look at this. The passage you quoted does appear to have a loose chiastic structure.  I would be interested in any other information you might discover. As to the OP, are you aware of any references to buried or slippery treasure or cursed land in his works? Had you already been looking at Helaman 13 and Mormon 1 with this topic in mind?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 9/30/2018 at 11:36 PM, JarMan said:

He actually proposed European, African, and Asian sources for the Americas.

Would you agree that if Grotius is the author the Book of Mormon, then it’s setting would not be in the New World but some other place? If he intended it to be about the Native Americans, why would he make them Hebrews rather than Europeans, Africans, or Asians?

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