Damien the Leper Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 On 9/2/2018 at 6:25 PM, Robert F. Smith said: If you are merely polling to see what level of informed and uninformed opinion is held by Mormons on this forum, then the answer will provide a range of opinion which is largely meaningless from a factual POV. If you are actually attempting to determine what is basic to christianity and the LDS Articles of Faith, then you are also likely to get a range of informed and uninformed opinion. It will again be virtually meaningless, primarily because the definition of "Christian" and "Christianity" is so variable -- and the views of the late Stephen Robinson are only a beginning of a real discussion. If you are asking WWJS (what would Jesus say?), you would again receive a range of informed and uninformed opinion. The same would apply to the views of the Apostle Paul. This is a theological question, the answers to which run the gamut from the Westminster Confession of Faith to the Apostles' Creed, and an infinity of points in between. You might have more success asking the truly hard question: What is Christianity? One writer held that there are no Christians, i.e., that Christianity had never been tried -- the admonitions of Jesus to love and do good to enemies being a bridge too far: "An impossible love" (Andre Schwarz-Bart, The Last of the Just). Are there in fact any Christians? And how can we identify them? Pssst...the Westminster Confession of Faith is heresy even by LDS standards. 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) On 9/12/2018 at 5:50 PM, theplains said: Many atheists see God's creation but they still don't want to believe. Many will die without ever having the scriptures, so I believe God will have His way to decide how to judge these people. That's hard to speculate on. You believe God will judge those who never had access to the scriptures based on the knowledge they had of Him: Posted September 7 God does have His ways of judging them, and you said He judges them based on the knowledge they had of Him. Now you say it is a matter of wanting to believe. How do you envision someone wanting to believe in Him without hearing of Him? Edited September 18, 2018 by CV75 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 2 hours ago, theplains said: Many atheists see God's creation but they still don't want to believe. Many will die without ever having the scriptures, so I believe God will have His way to decide how to judge these people. That's hard to speculate on. No need to speculate- just ask any Mormon what happens to people who have not heard the gospel!! 3 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Valentinus said: Pssst...the Westminster Confession of Faith is heresy even by LDS standards. Heresy is in the eye (or mind) of the beholder. So your comment here seems pointless. Link to comment
Eek! Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 On 9/2/2018 at 2:28 PM, Navidad said: My question is this - which of the 13 Articles of Faith do you believe are necessary for someone to believe in order to be considered a Christian? "Considered a Christian" by who? Him whose vote actually counts? Imo a person could be a follower of Christ even if their understanding of what that means doesn't fall within any traditional interpretation. Jesus was a follower of his Father even though his understanding of what that means didn't fall within any traditional interpretation. Imo only the First Article of Faith is "necessary", and even then let's allow the person to follow the dictates of their own conscience if that exact wording isn't what they would choose. 3 Link to comment
Navidad Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? Link to comment
Calm Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Navidad said: I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? Some is a timing issue. For example, the letter the AofF is based on was published in 1842, PoGP Book of Moses stuff wasn't published till 51. Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Navidad said: I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? They weren't canonized yet. And while they are super important, they are not as important as the Bible and BoM. The Bible and the especially the BoM exist to testify of Christ, which is the most important thing. Edited September 13, 2018 by Jane_Doe 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 7:57 AM, Navidad said: I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? The Wentworth LETTER was just that, a letter to a newspaper, a kind of "ad" for the church. It misses half the church doctrines and is not a creed of any kind. Link to comment
theplains Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/12/2018 at 7:08 PM, CV75 said: How do you envision someone wanting to believe in Him without hearing of Him? I believe God will provide a way, as he did with Philip and the eunuch (Acts 8:27). Link to comment
theplains Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/12/2018 at 8:11 PM, mfbukowski said: No need to speculate- just ask any Mormon what happens to people who have not heard the gospel!! Thanks. I am aware of the D&C passage that refers to the dead having the gospel preached to them. Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, theplains said: I believe God will provide a way, as he did with Philip and the eunuch (Acts 8:27). Yes, and he was living; this is also how all mortals that read and hear the word of God do it. How do you believe God will provide a way for the mortal that never read or heard the word of God, and is now deceased? Edited September 18, 2018 by CV75 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 5 hours ago, theplains said: I believe God will provide a way, as he did with Philip and the eunuch (Acts 8:27). I do not understand. The eunuch was alive. So you think this applies to the dead as well? Or are you saying that somehow people who were born in China in 700 BC could have found someone to teach them about Jesus and baptize them if God wanted them to do so? That is a total affirmation of predestination then if you ask me. God helps those whom he wants to help and makes a special case for them and still allows the vast majority of his children burn in hell. Doesn't work for me. Phillip was an apostle who God blessed to find the eunuch. There were no apostles around in China in 700 BC to find anyone. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Yes, and he was living; this is also how all mortals that read and hear the word of God do it. How do you believe God will provide a way for the mortal that never read or heard the word of God, and is now deceased? Yep- I didnt see this but we have virtually the same answer. Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yep- I didnt see this but we have virtually the same answer. This back-and-forth has been going on for almost two weeks, and I can't get a straight answer: Posted September 7 If God will judge them based on the knowledge they had of Him, what if they have none specifically of His name or Gospel doctrine? Does possessing a sense of right and wrong or charitable feelings count? Edited September 18, 2018 by CV75 1 Link to comment
Meerkat Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, CV75 said: Does possessing a sense of right and wrong or charitable feelings count? Yes, as long as we act on those feelings: "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:12-15 This, it seems to me, solves the problem of salvation for whose who never heard the name of Jesus Christ in this life. Everyone is born with the light of Christ in them. Our religion centers around transforming our behavior by responding to that Light and doing good to all, imo. Edited September 18, 2018 by Meerkat 1 Link to comment
Navidad Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 There is no "evangelical" or "Protestant" answer to the question of what will happen to those who have no foreknowledge of Christ, the gospel (in an inclusive sense) prior to their death. There are many answers that differ dramatically. So please, have a dose of skepticism if someone says with authority "this is what Baptists, or Methodists, or evangelicals or Protestants believe. There are a number of good books on the topic that include the range of beliefs. Many include a belief in the post-mortal ability of folks to be judged favorably by God. It seems that the Saints have a high degree of certainty they have the "answer." Non-Mormon evangelicals are not quite so sure. 2 Link to comment
pogi Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Navidad said: There is no "evangelical" or "Protestant" answer to the question of what will happen to those who have no foreknowledge of Christ, the gospel (in an inclusive sense) prior to their death. There are many answers that differ dramatically. So please, have a dose of skepticism if someone says with authority "this is what Baptists, or Methodists, or evangelicals or Protestants believe. There are a number of good books on the topic that include the range of beliefs. Many include a belief in the post-mortal ability of folks to be judged favorably by God. It seems that the Saints have a high degree of certainty they have the "answer." Non-Mormon evangelicals are not quite so sure. What is your take? Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 9:57 AM, Navidad said: I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? There wouldn't be mention of the pearl of great price. It wasn't canonized until after Joseph's murder. Both it and the D&C would fall under the scope of AofF 9. 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/17/2018 at 6:24 PM, theplains said: Thanks. I am aware of the D&C passage that refers to the dead having the gospel preached to them. You mean 1 Peter? that's not in the D&C 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Navidad said: There is no "evangelical" or "Protestant" answer to the question of what will happen to those who have no foreknowledge of Christ, the gospel (in an inclusive sense) prior to their death. There are many answers that differ dramatically. So please, have a dose of skepticism if someone says with authority "this is what Baptists, or Methodists, or evangelicals or Protestants believe. There are a number of good books on the topic that include the range of beliefs. Many include a belief in the post-mortal ability of folks to be judged favorably by God. It seems that the Saints have a high degree of certainty they have the "answer." Non-Mormon evangelicals are not quite so sure. Then why not ask the Lord? 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 9 hours ago, Navidad said: There is no "evangelical" or "Protestant" answer to the question of what will happen to those who have no foreknowledge of Christ, the gospel (in an inclusive sense) prior to their death. There are many answers that differ dramatically. So please, have a dose of skepticism if someone says with authority "this is what Baptists, or Methodists, or evangelicals or Protestants believe. There are a number of good books on the topic that include the range of beliefs. Many include a belief in the post-mortal ability of folks to be judged favorably by God. It seems that the Saints have a high degree of certainty they have the "answer." Non-Mormon evangelicals are not quite so sure. The entire LDS exaltation paradigm logically requires after death progression. No one is a "god" when he leaves the earth. We MUST have certainty or Mormonism is worthless and just another denomination It is what makes us exceptional. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 7:57 AM, Navidad said: I was really studying the Articles of Faith this morning. There is no mention of D&C, POGP, The First Vision, or of Joseph Smith. What, if anything is the signguidance of those omissions? Yet again, the articles of Faith do not include anything close to all Mormon Doctrine. They are not a Creed. I find it odd that you refuse to accept that. Link to comment
Navidad Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yet again, the articles of Faith do not include anything close to all Mormon Doctrine. They are not a Creed. I find it odd that you refuse to accept that. Hi Amigo- I never thought of the articles of faith as a LDS creed. You are right, since I am not creedal, it would be odd for me to force a creed on you all. I certainly don't do that. I simply don't have a real clear perspective on the chronology of the development of and changes in LDS beliefs. I thought it odd that those four things were not mentioned. I did not realize the articles of faith were decided on so early in the church's life that they would exclude, or never have been changed to include these four very important tenets of LDS faith. I have a great respect for the depth and intricacy of the LDS faith. It is complex and ever-evolving. That isn't a criticism; it is merely an observation. The LDS faith is uniquely permissive and restrictive, at the same time; methinks that is a function of the concept of a faith that is still evolving, changing, and in sometime ways engaged in a continual restoration of itself. Again, not a criticism; just an observation. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Hi Amigo- I never thought of the articles of faith as a LDS creed. You are right, since I am not creedal, it would be odd for me to force a creed on you all. I certainly don't do that. I simply don't have a real clear perspective on the chronology of the development of and changes in LDS beliefs. I thought it odd that those four things were not mentioned. I did not realize the articles of faith were decided on so early in the church's life that they would exclude, or never have been changed to include these four very important tenets of LDS faith. I have a great respect for the depth and intricacy of the LDS faith. It is complex and ever-evolving. That isn't a criticism; it is merely an observation. The LDS faith is uniquely permissive and restrictive, at the same time; methinks that is a function of the concept of a faith that is still evolving, changing, and in sometime ways engaged in a continual restoration of itself. Again, not a criticism; just an observation. I would find all if those areas strengths and never expect them to be criticisms. The A of F were not " decided upon." As I said before they came from a letter to an editor which was requested and they were written by Joseph as a quick summary of some important points of our faith. They were never decided upon they were just a letter to an editor. And then they were canonized. And frankly in my opinion they were designed to make us look a lot more Protestant that we are. I see them almost as an advertisement to join the church written for Protestants. No criticism but you really do not think like a Mormon yet. Complex and ever-evolving is a good thing. Continual renewal is why God gave us Prophets. We relish new revelation and new communications from God. We really are polytheistic. We really do believe in Heavenly Mother and really do think we can become like Our Parents through the Priesthood no one else has, and temple covenants. Note that none of that at all is in the Articles of faith. Don't get stuck on the articles of Faith because what you're looking for is not there. They are about as simple as one can get and leave out most of everything anyway. They are the opposite of " complex and ever evolving." Edited September 19, 2018 by mfbukowski Link to comment
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