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Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


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7 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

There is a baptism in water and a baptism of Spirit that happens the moment one believes.  That baptism is not the putting away of the flesh, but a baptism of the spirit through belief in Him.

He is immersed within me and I am immersed within Him.

Do you see?

Born of water is the physical birth.  Born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth that happens the moment one believes.  This passage has nothing to do with baptism by immersion in water.

There is a physical birth and there is a spiritual birth.  John 3:5 being a reference to baptism by immersion in water is wholistically an LDS concept read into the passage, but not what was said.

So according to this passage, if I believe without being immersed in water, am I saved or damned?  Specifically what is it that saved me?

Also important to keep in mind there IS a baptism that happens the moment one believes.  Just because the scripture says "baptized" doesn't mean immersion in water.

All of the other scriptures used to support immersion in water also have another interpretation that does not support the LDS conclusion, but please share.

You may wish to check these beliefs about baptism with the writings of the first century Christians, who clearly believed that actual water baptism was required for salvation.

Edited by Waylon
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51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No disrespect intended, but you're not making a lot of sense.  First, of course the Holy Ghost confirms and teaches truth.  That's right in the bible so it kind of seems like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face, trying to have an issue with that teaching.  Second, where does Moroni 10: 3-5 teach that the Holy Ghost teaches us truth through a feeling in one's heart?  

Here are the verses-

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.  4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.  5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

And third, you are just as susceptible to the deceiving of satan as I am.  Matt. 13 doesn't support your belief anymore than it supports mine.  We are all capable of being deceived and pointing that out doesn't equal an endorsement of any specific belief system.

No disrespect taken.  You and I both know the LDS teaching regarding confirmational feelings in the heart and the D&C verses, so I'm not going to bother playing that game with you.

Because mankind is susceptible to being deceived by Satan, we must realize how Satan deceives the hearts of people and how he Satan must first get people to first doubt the truth.

The Savior very clearly tells us how both good fruit and bad fruit can sprout from a person's heart and THAT is why the heart cannot be trusted as God's test for truth.   

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47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So by your own theology, LDS are saved because we believe on the Son of God.

Did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 not believe upon the Son of God?

48 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As for the bible, what it sounds like is that you are saying that you believe the bible is the word of God because the Holy Ghost has testified to you that it is the will of God, the same reason that LDS believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.  Is that what you are saying?

No that is not what I was saying.  Both LDS and non-LDS believe based upon the written word.  That's it.

Trace your beliefs and you'll see that is true.

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19 minutes ago, Waylon said:

If you believe the bible is, and has always been, incorruptible, why don't Protestants believe in the Apocrypha, unlike Catholics?

Isn't that kind of a tacit admission by Baptists that the Bible may not be incorruptible after all?

Because, like modern revelations, the Apocrypha contain doctrines that contradict that which has already been revealed in God's word.

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Just now, Free in Christ said:

Because, like modern revelations, the Apocrypha contain doctrines that contradict that which has already been revealed in God's word.

But, ummm . . . how do you know that the Apocrypha did not contain the gospel of God?  Did Martin Luther have some kind of revelation saying the Apocrypha was false, or did he rely on his own reasoning?  And . . . what if he was wrong?

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39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You keep bringing up the bolded part, but you haven't been able to show that LDS teach people that they should rely on a feeling in the heart as a test of truth.  You really need to show that we actually teach that first, before you argue against it.  Otherwise, you are just creating your own straw men and then celebrating when you knock them down.  They have nothing to do with us though.

Do you think I'm an investigator or something?  Special spirit?  What??  

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    The rejected in Matthew 7 believed in the Son of God and were doing works but there belief was mixed with there being self centered and not doing them to glorify God. He looked at there hearts and saw where there real focus was, themselves to be seen of men and to God.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine, 

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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9 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 not believe upon the Son of God?

No that is not what I was saying.  Both LDS and non-LDS believe based upon the written word.  That's it.

Trace your beliefs and you'll see that is true.

Which version of "The written Word" ?

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Just now, Anakin7 said:

  The rejected in Matthew 7 believed in the Son of God and were doing works but there belief was mixed with there being self centered and not doing them to glorify God. He looked at there hearts and saw where there real focus was, themselves to be seen of men and to God.

So that part about "all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" doesn't have some element of doing works for one's own salvation in it?

LDS may not admit to that (I certainly didn't), but those who are honest will agree they are trying to save themselves

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41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You keep bringing up the bolded part, but you haven't been able to show that LDS teach people that they should rely on a feeling in the heart as a test of truth.  You really need to show that we actually teach that first, before you argue against it.  Otherwise, you are just creating your own straw men and then celebrating when you knock them down.  They have nothing to do with us though.

I agree that LDS doctrine is logical to those of us who believe it.  I also believe that logical testimony can be sustained by a spiritual feeling or confidence, as Paul explained in Ephesians 3:

"16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
            17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
            18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
            19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God"

And a multitude of other scriptures that Free in Christ will ignore.  

I agree with you that the Spirit manfesting itself as a burning feeling in the heart is not necessary for a testimony.  The Spirit works in many ways, including (but not limited to) as FIC said, bringing things to our remembrance.

Sunday, in Fast and Testimony, two sisters expressed expressed they had few, if any, spiritual experiences in their lives.  But they found that living the Gospel made them happy, and they loved how it effected their marriage and family relationships.  Christ said in Matthew 7: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
            17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
            18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

That's the bottom line with me.  This Church brings forth good fruit.  That is undeniable.  Living it brings me and many others I know, happiness and great joy in Christ.

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Just now, Free in Christ said:

As a baptist, we believe that we only need to believe what He believes.  

I bet you have no idea what the first century Christians believed.  Most Protestants don't, and those who do tend to see that their doctrines are modern, man-made innovations, wrested from scripture to ease Martin Luther's mental insecurities, and flee to Catholicism.  (They would be better served fleeing to Mormonism, an even more pure expression of first century Christian beliefs).  You should seriously read the writings of the First Century Christians and ask yourself, "why do these Christians, who were personally taught by the apostles, have such different beliefs from modern day Protestants".

The thing that turns me off of Protestantism (at least as presented by you) is this - it is man made.  It is someone's tortured interpretation of the Bible, without claims of any sort of inspiration to back it up.  In a very real way, it asks us to put blind faith in what Pastor Bill claims the Bible means and to disregard prayerful consideration and inspiration.  Under this reasoning, using fallible human logic, I see no better reason to become a Protestant than a Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, or a Muslim for that matter.

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4 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

As a baptist, we believe that we only need to believe what He believes.  

 Which agree with True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey is Faith, Repentance, Baptism For The remission of sins, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Keeping The Commandments to Be/Stay Saved according to Holy Writ.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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49 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

There is a baptism in water and a baptism of Spirit that happens the moment one believes.  That baptism is not the putting away of the flesh, but a baptism of the spirit through belief in Him.

He is immersed within me and I am immersed within Him.

Do you see?

Born of water is the physical birth.  Born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth that happens the moment one believes.  This passage has nothing to do with baptism by immersion in water.

There is a physical birth and there is a spiritual birth.  John 3:5 being a reference to baptism by immersion in water is wholistically an LDS concept read into the passage, but not what was said.

So according to this passage, if I believe without being immersed in water, am I saved or damned?  Specifically what is it that saved me?

Also important to keep in mind there IS a baptism that happens the moment one believes.  Just because the scripture says "baptized" doesn't mean immersion in water.

All of the other scriptures used to sbibleupport immersion in water also have another interpretation that does not support the LDS conclusion, but please share.

May I suggest that you read what the Bible says  =>>

2 Peter 1 [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God [prophets} spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 

Eph 4 [11] And *he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets* and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
         
[13] *Till we all come in the unity of the faith* and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of                         Christ: 
         
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness,                        whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The Bible says it, I believe it.


The historic Christian church has replaced the apostles and prophets with theologians and philosophers. They debate and argue even over basic salvation doctrine -- grace, free will, baptism, etc. Revelation has been replaced by schools of learning, PhD, and rhetorical skills.

I make note that you are adding words to the Bible and giving your private, personal interpretation.  You then condemn the modern prophets for acting in their callings as prophets, with authority to teach the Gospel, especially when they disagree with the interpretations  of the modern scribes and Pharasees.

Edited by cdowis
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14 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

So that part about "all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" doesn't have some element of doing works for one's own salvation in it?

LDS may not admit to that (I certainly didn't), but those who are honest will agree they are trying to save themselves

Only in the sense as Paul to the Philippians:  Philippians 2:12  

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

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In response to the deceitful heart - Duet 4:29 6:5, Josh 2:11,5:1, 1 Sam7:3, 16:7, Ps 44:21, 69:32, 78:37,  Prov 2:2, 3:3-5, 6:21, 17:22, 23:7, Jer 11:20, 31:33, Matt 5:8, Luke 8:15, 24:32, Acts 4:32, Rom 5:5, 8:27, 10:10, Gal 4:6, Eph 3:17. How to tell - ! Pet 1:21-23, 3:15, Rev 2:23.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

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32 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Do you think I'm an investigator or something?  Special spirit?  What??  

I'm sorry if i've confused you. I'll try to clarify.  You keep implying and outright saying that LDS teach that people are to learn truth through a feeling in our heart.  Please show where LDS teach that.  

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47 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

No disrespect taken.  You and I both know the LDS teaching regarding confirmational feelings in the heart and the D&C verses, so I'm not going to bother playing that game with you.

Because mankind is susceptible to being deceived by Satan, we must realize how Satan deceives the hearts of people and how he Satan must first get people to first doubt the truth.

The Savior very clearly tells us how both good fruit and bad fruit can sprout from a person's heart and THAT is why the heart cannot be trusted as God's test for truth.   

Sorry, you don't get to do that.  This is a formal CFR (call for references).  According to board rules you must produce a reference, retract your statement, or you could be banned (it says that not answering a CFR is a ban-able offense in the board guidelines at the top of the site, for anyone who thinks that I'm making a threat or pretending I'm a mod or otherwise speaking out of turn).

CFR that the LDS church teaches that we learn truth through feelings in our hearts.

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14 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Only in the sense as Paul to the Philippians:  Philippians 2:12  

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

   Hebrews 5:9 -  He [Jesus Christ] became [ First moment in time for an individual ] the author [ The producer ] of eternal salvation [Physical and Spiritual] unto all [everyone including Free In Christ ] who obey [Which is connected to the 1st Principle of The Gospel = Faith - pistis = allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust ] Him = The Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus.  No once saved always saved. Belief/Believe/Faith are all action words in Hebrew and Greek. That's what the Holy Bible says.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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50 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 not believe upon the Son of God?

No that is not what I was saying.  Both LDS and non-LDS believe based upon the written word.  That's it.

Trace your beliefs and you'll see that is true.

FIC, you've shown us that you do not even believe YOUR own theology.  It makes all your attempts at proselytizing here to fall instantly flat and the more you persist the big hole you're falling into.

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1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

There is a baptism in water and a baptism of Spirit that happens the moment one believes.  That baptism is not the putting away of the flesh, but a baptism of the spirit through belief in Him.

He is immersed within me and I am immersed within Him.

Do you see?

Born of water is the physical birth.  Born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth that happens the moment one believes.  This passage has nothing to do with baptism by immersion in water.

There is a physical birth and there is a spiritual birth.  John 3:5 being a reference to baptism by immersion in water is wholistically an LDS concept read into the passage, but not what was said.

So according to this passage, if I believe without being immersed in water, am I saved or damned?  Specifically what is it that saved me?

Also important to keep in mind there IS a baptism that happens the moment one believes.  Just because the scripture says "baptized" doesn't mean immersion in water.

All of the other scriptures used to support immersion in water also have another interpretation that does not support the LDS conclusion, but please share.

I'm fine if you want to believe this.  It's between you and God.  But the bible doesn't support it.

Christ, our perfect example, was physically baptized, to fulfill all righteousness.  If He hadn't of been baptized, it would have been a sin.  Christ commanded His apostles to physically baptize His followers when He gave them the great commission.  One of the most popular chapters in the book of Acts is about the gentiles need to be physically baptized.   The definition of the word baptize (including the greek word used in the bible ) is literally to be submerged and then emerge again.

Baptism is how we enter into a covenant with Christ.  It is symbolic both of us being born again after burying our old selves and of the Savior's death and resurrection.  It is the gate, that once entered gives us access to the path that leads to eternal life.  That is why someone must believe and be baptized (to quote the bible) to be saved.  Baptism does not save us.  Baptism by one who has authority to speak in the name of Christ is how we gain access to the saving power of Christ's atonement.  It's how we gain access because that's how God declared we would gain access to it.

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28 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agree that LDS doctrine is logical to those of us who believe it.  I also believe that logical testimony can be sustained by a spiritual feeling or confidence, as Paul explained in Ephesians 3:

"16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
            17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
            18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
            19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God"

And a multitude of other scriptures that Free in Christ will ignore. 

I'm not ignoring these or any scriptures.  We believe a vastly different point of view from LDS.

We believe those who have Jesus Christ in them have His eternal life within them vs the LDS view of eternal life being a celestial kingdom. 

We also believe that His sinless perfection and all of His works are imputed upon the believer the moment of belief.

If you have Christ within you as you claim, then according to the scriptures, you already have eternal life.  The fact that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality confirms the disparity between LDS theology and the Bible.

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