Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[Free in Christ]

On 8/4/2018 at 3:17 AM, flameburns623 said:

The problem is, with all respect due to FiC, it appears that s/he has picked up these talking-points, this narrative,  at second hand.  With little or no formal training either in philosophy or in systematic theology. 

You don't need any formal training in philosophy or systematic theology to understand the truth.  In fact, the philosophers, the stoicks and the religious crowd have always wrong in the scriptures.

They called the Apostle Paul a "babbler".  They called the Savior a "deceiver".  Why?  Because the message of the cross is simple and too easy for them to accept.

Little wonder why in Luke 18:17 the Savior tells us "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

Those who simply hear the truth and choose to believe are they who have Jesus Christ within them.

[Free in Christ]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:26 AM, Waylon said:

My experience is a lot of very devout Baptists, and other Christian Fundamentalists, bring into a discussion certain preconceived notions (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) that they have been fed their entire lives via anti-Mormon propaganda: 1) it is impossible for a Mormon to be a Christian; 2) Mormons are a cult; 3) Mormons are brainwashed; 4) Mormons cannot reason properly, either because they are brainwashed or because they are unsaved.  These notions color the conversations that many Christian Fundamentalists have with Mormons - they spew their party line, and if you, as a Mormon, disagree or bring up an alternative argument (e.g., "why did the beliefs of the first century Christians look so different than Protestant beliefs") rather than reason or stop to consider that they could indeed themselves be wrong or engage in meaningful dialogue, they just raise their voices and repeat the same thing, as if Mormons will spontaneously drop their beliefs and become Baptists if yelled at loudly enough or something.

I am a member of a baptist church and, to my knowledge, I have never claimed LDS were not Christians.  I do not believe LDS Christians are brainwashed or members of a cult or LDS cannot reason properly based upon their interpretation of scripture.

All LDS doctrines are rooted from a single seed: the Holy Spirit reveals truth through feelings in the heart.

Like baptists, LDS Christians are people who have read the Book of Mormon and have simply chosen to believe what it says about the Holy Ghost.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

I have never denied the fact that most LDS Christians have a genuine and sincere relationship with a being they identify as "Christ".

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew performed all of the works they did in the name of Jesus Christ.  Do you think they wouldn't have claimed to have "a solid relationship with Christ"?

Yet He never knew them because they did not first do the will of the Father.

In your understanding, what are the works that we must do to be known by Christ.  Oh, and I'm not sure if you ever answered my previous question so could you do so now?  How do you know that the bible is the word of God?

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

All LDS doctrines are rooted from a single seed: the Holy Spirit reveals truth through feelings in the heart.

 

Could you please provide a reference for this teaching?  If all of our doctrine is rooting in this one thing, then it should be very simple for you to do so.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The Bible tells us that baptism by immersion in water is not required for salvation.

And it also tells us that it is.

[Free in Christ]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In your understanding, what are the works that we must do to be known by Christ.

The savior tells us this John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

When we see the truth, simply believe the truth.  Belief is the work of God and the only work required by the Savior for those who do not already believe.

in John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Oh, and I'm not sure if you ever answered my previous question so could you do so now?  How do you know that the bible is the word of God?

We know the Bible is true the same way LDS know that confirmational feelings come from the Holy Ghost.

We have read it, pondered it in our hearts and minds and have chosen to believe it is the truth based upon the evidence. 

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

I am a member of a baptist church and, to my knowledge, I have never claimed LDS were not Christians.  I do not believe LDS Christians are brainwashed or members of a cult or LDS cannot reason properly based upon their interpretation of scripture.

All LDS doctrines are rooted from a single seed: the Holy Spirit reveals truth through feelings in the heart.

Like baptists, LDS Christians are people who have read the Book of Mormon and have simply chosen to believe what it says about the Holy Ghost.

I see a difference in tone and implication in this statements than the others you have been making.  Rather than criticize their Christianity, you seem to be allowing that Mormons enjoy the virtues of Christianity, as do Baptists, but Mormons and Baptists come at their faith in Christ differently and that's okay.

This is how you came across to me in earlier posts.  Do you see the difference?:

 On 8/3/2018 at 2:25 PM, Jane_Doe said:

I'm happy you now have a more solid relationship Christ.  Are you still going to deny when an LDS person likewise has a solid relationship with Christ?

"I have never denied the fact that most LDS Christians have a genuine and sincere relationship with a being they identify as "Christ".

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew performed all of the works they did in the name of Jesus Christ.  Do you think they wouldn't have claimed to have "a solid relationship with Christ"?

Yet He never knew them because they did not first do the will of the Father"___________________________________________

Your implication in that post is that the being they identify as Christ is not the real Christ because they were influenced by the Holy Ghost to believe Him, therefore Mormons are rejected of God.

When Mormons explain how the Spirit influenced them to believe in Jesus Christ, why can't you just accept that they arrived at Christ in a different way than you did?

This is how Peter explained he knew he was walking with the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emaus: "30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
            31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
            32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" From Luke 24

Mormons will tell you that's exactly how it works for them.  That's how it works for me.  I believe in Jesus Christ, and that belief is sustained by the Holy Ghost because this is what Jesus said:

"15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.*
            16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
            17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
            18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
            19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
            20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
            21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." From John 14

That's all Mormons are saying.  Are you saying Peter was worshiping the wrong Christ because he said his heart burned within him?  That's what Mormons are saying.  They also say that Christ has given them the Spirit of truth that He called "another comforter."  "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."  If that hasn't happened to you, does that mean you are worshipping the wrong Christ?  Can you see how me suggesting that makes it difficult to fellowship about the joys of Christ, and other things we have in common?   

Why can't you do as the Savior told His disciples:

"39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.  For he that is not against us is on our part." From Mark 9

Then we could fellowship together over the things we love and agree with rather than dispute over our differences.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Meerkat

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The Savior tells us how the Holy Spirit communicates with us and it's not a feeling in the heart.  John 14:26 tells us the Holy Spirit will bring the words of Jesus Christ to our rememberance and that is how we know truth - the word of God, not a feeling in the heart.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

He was saying this to His apostles. This is how they wrote the NT - by the Holy Spirit bringing His words back to their rememberance. So you don't believe the Holy Spirit testifies to the truthfulness of things? You avoided my question of how to pray. The Bible says that Yeshua told us to pray in His name to the Father. If you are doing that, you believe He will let Satan answer? He doesn't say He will:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will ^alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our ^babode with him.

He says if we keep His words ie to pray in His name, He will come and make His abode with us. He will not let Satan have us.

Matthew 11:27-28

27 All ^athings are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither ^bknoweth any man the Father, save the Son, ^cand he to whomsoever the Son will ^dreveal him.

Further, He says you do not know the Father unless He reveals Him to you. You think you know the Father, but you do not unless you have prayed to Yeshua to learn of Him, and Yeshua said it was He who revealed Him. As a matter of fact He said He would plainly reveal the Father [up on the cross].

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the ^aSpirit of truth, is come, he will ^bguide you into all ^ctruth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will ^dshew you things to come.

This is one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit. He reveals things to come. He does not just help us remember things of the past. You apparently believe God has no more things to come, and that there will be no more scripture. Then how will the two witnesses of Revelation prophesy? How will God reveal the visions sealed up to the time of the end in Daniel?

Quote

According to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit brings His words that I have read to my remembrance and guides me in all truth. 

We are commanded to try the spirits because there are false prophets that teach a false gospel, a false Christ and have a false spirit.

I agree that the HS is to guide us in truth. But you accept no words outside of the Bible. Therefore, you do not believe the two witnesses will prophesy words of God even though it is the Bible which says they will. You therefore, do not believe the Bible even though you say you do. How do you try the spirits to see if they are of God? How do you know that it is not you who has been led astray in your reading of scripture? Do you believe in the trinity? Do you accept the Nicene Creed? It says that Yeshua was begotten before all ages/worlds. This is not scriptural. The Bible says that Yeshua was begotten when the Father said to Him, "Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Do you believe that? I don't think you do. You believe He was never really begotten, because you believe He was always the Son. Nor as a trinitarian do you believe that He will be called the Father, since Trinitarians believe He is immutable, and is not the Father. So in trying the spirits - those who would have me believe the words of scripture, and those would have me believe those leading me away, whom should I follow? Whom do you follow? 

Quote

Satan's method is always the same and has never changed since the Garden of Eden: Get mankind to doubt the word of God.  

If you truly did believe the Bible as you claim, then you can't also believe it has been corrupted.  You believe parts of the Bible or believe the LDS interpretation of the Bible, but you cannot say that you "believe the Bible" if you believe it is corrupted, mistranslated and contains errors.  

So, why not just admit what you really believe?

Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" and you choose to believe "He that believeth on me does not yet have everlasting life".

This points back to the previous statement and reveals the true identity of the LDS spirit.  The fact is, the LDS spirit wants you to doubt the word of God.  It's  been mistranslated, Jesus didn't actually mean that, His words were merely just "figures of speech" or taken out of context.

This LDS spirit has studied his scripture and knows better. For example there are multiple Bibles friend. Which should I believe? The Septuagint Bible which has a verse omitted in your King James at Psalms 145:13. The chapter is an acrostic - that is each verse started with a letter of the Hebrew alphabet - except there is no verse for nun at Psalms 145:13 in your KJV. However, the older Septuagint has a verse there which would begin with the corresponding nun letter.

There are many examples of copyist errors. No two ancient manuscript copies of NT books are exactly alike. Here is an example of an omission in brackets from your KJV: 

John 7:29

[I know him, and if I see that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar;] but I know him, for of him I am, and he sent me.

One of the more famous changes is called the Johannine Comma, which is at 1 John 5:7-8. Basically, every biblical scholar now believes that to be an addition. Even the Catholic Church now admits that it was added by copyists from a margin note in a manuscript.

You are simply naive about ancient Biblical studies if you believe there are no mistranslations nor errors in the KJV. There are many scholars who say there are, and you can see the issues like I have shown above. Does that make me an evil spirit or you a naive one who hasn't really studied ancient scripture?

Like I already said ancient Hebrew had no tenses. Future tense was spoken in present tense and inferred from the context. This is how Hebrews thought. Yet, you want to make future things literally be in the present because you do not understand this. Yeshua would tell His followers they had immortality, yet they died. They were mortal. They were not yet immortal. But they had His words which they said were the words of eternal life. So to them they had eternal life. It was that simple, yet you make it into some cross to die on. Like I said if you had His eternal life you could heal whomever believed. You could perform His miracles. 

"He that believeth in me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works shall he do, because I go unto my Father." When you do that, then I will believe that you have the eternal life of which you speak. But when someone actually comes and does that, him you will not believe, but shall persecute, and do persecute. Joseph Smith healed many people through their faith in the Savior. There is a movie called Ephraim's Rescue, which I recommend for you.

Edited August 7, 2018 by RevTestament

[Free in Christ]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Could you please provide a reference for this teaching?  If all of our doctrine is rooting in this one thing, then it should be very simple for you to do so.

In Matthew 13 we are shown how Satan deceives using a single seed of false doctrine which is sown in the hearts of those who hear but do not understand the truth "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way." (v 24-25)

All of LDS theology grows from the single seed of belief in Moroni 10:4-5:  The Holy Ghost confirms truth [through a feeling in one's heart].

The moment an investigator accepts this as truth, one believes all other LDS doctrines.

[Free in Christ]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The Bible tells us that baptism by immersion in water is not required for salvation.

And it also tells us that it is.

For clarification, LDS theology teaches baptism by immersion is required for salvation, but the Bible does not teach this.  

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I have never denied the fact that most LDS Christians have a genuine and sincere relationship with a being they identify as "Christ".

Through your use of quotation marks you have once again denied all LDS person's relationship with Christ (no quotation marks) and your own belief in salvation through faith (cause you just added on the other requirement of passing a Protestant theology test).  

You don't believe your own theology, yet you want us to?  Pass. 

[Anakin7]

26 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

For clarification, LDS theology teaches baptism by immersion is required for salvation, but the Bible does not teach this.  

    Free in Christ, for clarification, True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey do teach that Baptism is required for True Salvation, and the Holy Bible does teach this. http://www.bebaptized.org 

The Atonement It is the Central Doctrine,

Washing My Garment, Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited August 7, 2018 by Anakin7

[Free in Christ]

17 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

When Mormons explain how the Spirit influenced them to believe in Jesus Christ, why can't you just accept that they arrived at Christ in a different way than you did?

Because there is a false Christ.  That's the whole point.  Even Satan's ministers are transformed into ministers of righteousness who have a testimony of how their christ has changed their lives for good.

Do you now see this?

19 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

This is how Peter explained he knew he was walking with the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emaus: "30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
            31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
            32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" From Luke 24

I have some very simple questions for you about this passage:

When they felt the burning in their hearts, were their eyes opened to the truth or not? 

Who or what actually opened their eyes to the truth?

Does the passage say the feeling came from the Holy Ghost or not?

22 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Mormons will tell you that's exactly how it works for them.  That's how it works for me.  I believe in Jesus Christ, and that belief is sustained by the Holy Ghost because this is what Jesus said:

"15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.*
            16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
            17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
            18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
            19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
            20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
            21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." From John 14

I believe LDS do truly love their savior and try to obey his commandments.  

Where in this passage does the Savior tell us the Holy Ghost will reveal truth by a feeling in the heart?

In verse 21, the Savior tells us the Spirit will manifest Himself to us and verse 26 tells us exactly how He will do this:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."  

The Spirit brings the words of Jesus Christ to our rememberance. 

The word of God was, is and will always be God's final test of truth.

33 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

That's all Mormons are saying.  Are you saying Peter was worshiping the wrong Christ because he said his heart burned within him?  That's what Mormons are saying.  They also say that Christ has given them the Spirit of truth that He called "another comforter."  "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."  If that hasn't happened to you, does that mean you are worshipping the wrong Christ?  Can you see how me suggesting that makes it difficult to fellowship about the joys of Christ, and other things we have in common?   

Why can't you do as the Savior told His disciples:

"39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.  For he that is not against us is on our part." From Mark 9

Then we could fellowship together over the things we love and agree with rather than dispute over our differences.

LDS doctrines must always be read into the Bible.  

You will never, ever be able to demonstrate in the Bible that God equates a feeling in the heart with a test for truth.  

God has already revealed the exact opposite about our hearts friends.  The heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked".  That means there is nothing more capable of deceiving and being deceived than your heart. 

Only Satan, disguised as God, required that you to trust in a feeling from your heart.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

For clarification, LDS theology teaches baptism by immersion is required for salvation, but the Bible does not teach this.  

No, for clarification, the bible teaches that baptism is essential for salvation (and some other protestant religions agree.  There are protestant denominations which believe that baptism is essential for salvation, and they use the bible as the reason for that belief).

1 Pet. 3:21-
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

John 3:5-
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enterinto the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16-
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are other scriptures where the teaching is implied but these are the verses where it is specifically taught.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

You don't need any formal training in philosophy or systematic theology to understand the truth.  In fact, the philosophers, the stoicks and the religious crowd have always wrong in the scriptures.

Before you fully commit to the idea that philosophers - in particular, the "stoicks" [sic] - are always wrong, maybe you should check out the Wikipedia entry on the Trinity (spoiler alert: here there be stoics). 

 

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

In Matthew 13 we are shown how Satan deceives using a single seed of false doctrine which is sown in the hearts of those who hear but do not understand the truth "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way." (v 24-25)

All of LDS theology grows from the single seed of belief in Moroni 10:4-5:  The Holy Ghost confirms truth [through a feeling in one's heart].

The moment an investigator accepts this as truth, one believes all other LDS doctrines.

No disrespect intended, but you're not making a lot of sense.  First, of course the Holy Ghost confirms and teaches truth.  That's right in the bible so it kind of seems like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face, trying to have an issue with that teaching.  Second, where does Moroni 10: 3-5 teach that the Holy Ghost teaches us truth through a feeling in one's heart?  

Here are the verses-

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.  4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.  5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

And third, you are just as susceptible to the deceiving of satan as I am.  Matt. 13 doesn't support your belief anymore than it supports mine.  We are all capable of being deceived and pointing that out doesn't equal an endorsement of any specific belief system.

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

The Bible tells us that baptism by immersion in water is not required for salvation.

Christ disagrees with you, but you listen to the theologians  ==>>

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

John 3[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The Bible says it, I believe it. 
Mormons are Bible believing Christians.

Now you show us where the Bible says " baptism by immersion in water is not required for salvation." 
 

Edited August 7, 2018 by cdowis

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The savior tells us this John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

When we see the truth, simply believe the truth.  Belief is the work of God and the only work required by the Savior for those who do not already believe.

in John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

We know the Bible is true the same way LDS know that confirmational feelings come from the Holy Ghost.

We have read it, pondered it in our hearts and minds and have chosen to believe it is the truth based upon the evidence. 

So by your own theology, LDS are saved because we believe on the Son of God.

As for the bible, what it sounds like is that you are saying that you believe the bible is the word of God because the Holy Ghost has testified to you that it is the will of God, the same reason that LDS believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.  Is that what you are saying?

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Because there is a false Christ.  That's the whole point.  Even Satan's ministers are transformed into ministers of righteousness who have a testimony of how their christ has changed their lives for good.

Do you now see this?

I have some very simple questions for you about this passage:

When they felt the burning in their hearts, were their eyes opened to the truth or not? 

Who or what actually opened their eyes to the truth?

Does the passage say the feeling came from the Holy Ghost or not?

I believe LDS do truly love their savior and try to obey his commandments.  

Where in this passage does the Savior tell us the Holy Ghost will reveal truth by a feeling in the heart?

In verse 21, the Savior tells us the Spirit will manifest Himself to us and verse 26 tells us exactly how He will do this:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."  

The Spirit brings the words of Jesus Christ to our rememberance. 

The word of God was, is and will always be God's final test of truth.

LDS doctrines must always be read into the Bible.  

You will never, ever be able to demonstrate in the Bible that God equates a feeling in the heart with a test for truth.  

God has already revealed the exact opposite about our hearts friends.  The heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked".  That means there is nothing more capable of deceiving and being deceived than your heart. 

Only Satan, disguised as God, required that you to trust in a feeling from your heart.

You keep bringing up the bolded part, but you haven't been able to show that LDS teach people that they should rely on a feeling in the heart as a test of truth.  You really need to show that we actually teach that first, before you argue against it.  Otherwise, you are just creating your own straw men and then celebrating when you knock them down.  They have nothing to do with us though.

[Free in Christ]

36 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

He was saying this to His apostles. This is how they wrote the NT - by the Holy Spirit bringing His words back to their rememberance. So you don't believe the Holy Spirit testifies to the truthfulness of things? You avoided my question of how to pray. The Bible says that Yeshua told us to pray in His name to the Father. If you are doing that, you believe He will let Satan answer? He doesn't say He will:

I believe exactly as Jesus Christ says: the Holy Ghost manifests truth to me by bringing the word of God to my remembrance.

Can Satan answer when we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ?  Think about it, the rejected of the Savior did the miraculous works they did in the name of Jesus Christ, yet Christ never knew them.  Which "Christ" then did these great works?

Unbelievers are of their father, the devil.

56 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will ^alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our ^babode with him.

He says if we keep His words ie to pray in His name, He will come and make His abode with us. He will not let Satan have us.

LDS theology must always change the words of Jesus Christ.  His words do not match LDS theology in any way, shape or form.  That's why LDS believe His words as long as they are translated correctly, or interpreted correctly or some other reason that ultimately changes what the Savior says to fit into the LDS context.

Jesus said "if a man love me, he will keep my words".

Do you keep His words?  Do you obey His commandments perfectly as He commanded?  

Yet you claim "if we keep His words..."  

Again, you must change what Jesus Christ said to fit LDS theology.

58 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Matthew 11:27-28

27 All ^athings are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither ^bknoweth any man the Father, save the Son, ^cand he to whomsoever the Son will ^dreveal him.

Further, He says you do not know the Father unless He reveals Him to you. You think you know the Father, but you do not unless you have prayed to Yeshua to learn of Him, and Yeshua said it was He who revealed Him. As a matter of fact He said He would plainly reveal the Father [up on the cross].

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the ^aSpirit of truth, is come, he will ^bguide you into all ^ctruth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will ^dshew you things to come.

This is one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit. He reveals things to come. He does not just help us remember things of the past. You apparently believe God has no more things to come, and that there will be no more scripture. Then how will the two witnesses of Revelation prophesy? How will God reveal the visions sealed up to the time of the end in Daniel?

The word of God has revealed all of these things and more.  Again, nowhere in these passages do you see a feeling in the heart equated with a test of truth.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I agree that the HS is to guide us in truth. But you accept no words outside of the Bible. Therefore, you do not believe the two witnesses will prophesy words of God even though it is the Bible which says they will. You therefore, do not believe the Bible even though you say you do. How do you try the spirits to see if they are of God? How do you know that it is not you who has been led astray in your reading of scripture? Do you believe in the trinity? Do you accept the Nicene Creed? It says that Yeshua was begotten before all ages/worlds. This is not scriptural. The Bible says that Yeshua was begotten when the Father said to Him, "Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Do you believe that? I don't think you do. You believe He was never really begotten, because you believe He was always the Son. Nor as a trinitarian do you believe that He will be called the Father, since Trinitarians believe He is immutable, and is not the Father. So in trying the spirits - those who would have me believe the words of scripture, and those would have me believe those leading me away, whom should I follow? Whom do you follow? 

"How do you try the spirits to see if they are of God?"

The Bible tells us in 1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God"

The personages that appeared to Joseph Smith did not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.  Therefore they were not of God.

"How do you know that it is not you who has been led astray in your reading of scripture?"

Because I believe exactly what the Bible says without trying to change what was said to fit a set of doctrines.  Jesus said it and I believe it exactly as He said it.  I don't need another revelation to clarify what He really meant. 

"Do you believe in the trinity?"

I believe there is one God that exists in three distinct personages.

"Do you accept the Nicene Creed? It says that Yeshua was begotten before all ages/worlds. This is not scriptural. The Bible says that Yeshua was begotten when the Father said to Him, "Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Do you believe that? I don't think you do. You believe He was never really begotten, because you believe He was always the Son. Nor as a trinitarian do you believe that He will be called the Father, since Trinitarians believe He is immutable, and is not the Father."

Do you believe that you have a conscience?  If so, please explain to me exactly how it works, so that I may know what you are saying is true. 

If you cannot explain it, how can you believe in something that you cannot fully understand?

"So in trying the spirits - those who would have me believe the words of scripture, and those would have me believe those leading me away, whom should I follow? Whom do you follow?"

Don't believe me or anyone else.  Believe what Jesus Christ tells you in His word, the Bible.

[Free in Christ]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

This LDS spirit has studied his scripture and knows better. For example there are multiple Bibles friend. Which should I believe? The Septuagint Bible which has a verse omitted in your King James at Psalms 145:13. The chapter is an acrostic - that is each verse started with a letter of the Hebrew alphabet - except there is no verse for nun at Psalms 145:13 in your KJV. However, the older Septuagint has a verse there which would begin with the corresponding nun letter.

There are many examples of copyist errors. No two ancient manuscript copies of NT books are exactly alike. Here is an example of an omission in brackets from your KJV: 

John 7:29

[I know him, and if I see that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar;] but I know him, for of him I am, and he sent me.

One of the more famous changes is called the Johannine Comma, which is at 1 John 5:7-8. Basically, every biblical scholar now believes that to be an addition. Even the Catholic Church now admits that it was added by copyists from a margin note in a manuscript.

In Psalm 12:6-7 God promised He would preserve His words perfectly from corruption.

The spirit which you believe would have you believe that God was not capable of keeping his promise.

Now you tell me, who will you believe: that spirit or the word of God?

[Free in Christ]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Like I already said ancient Hebrew had no tenses. Future tense was spoken in present tense and inferred from the context. This is how Hebrews thought. Yet, you want to make future things literally be in the present because you do not understand this. Yeshua would tell His followers they had immortality, yet they died. They were mortal. There were not yet immortal. But they had His words which they said were the words of eternal life. So to them they had eternal life. It was that simple, yet you make it into some cross to die on. Like I said if you had His eternal life you could heal whomever believed. You could perform His miracles. 

"He that believeth in me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works shall he do, because I go unto my Father." When you do that, then I will believe that you have the eternal life of which you speak. But when someone actually comes and does that, him you will not believe, but shall persecute.

The NT wasn't written in Hebrew, it was written in greek.  

Jesus Christ tells those who believe they are passed from death unto life.  He tells us those who do not believe have no life in them and those who believe have eternal life in them.

If you choose not to believe His words then perhaps you should consider the possibility that His words do give a life that is eternal and immortal even though the outward man will die?

If you believed His words then you would see that the works He did were imputed to you just as though you did them.  His perfection is imputed to you just as though you were perfect.

I have eternal life because I have all of these things within me and I do even greater than these through His words.

[Waylon]

11 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

In Psalm 12:6-7 God promised He would preserve His words perfectly from corruption.

The spirit which you believe would have you believe that God was not capable of keeping his promise.

Now you tell me, who will you believe: that spirit or the word of God?

If you believe the bible is, and has always been, incorruptible, why don't Protestants believe in the Apocrypha, unlike Catholics?

Isn't that kind of a tacit admission by Baptists that the Bible may not be incorruptible after all?

Edited August 7, 2018 by Waylon

[Waylon]

Martin Luther himself wanted to junk the Epistle of James for obvious reasons, calling it an "Epistle of straw".  There has also been Protestant discussion regarding junking the book of revelation as well at various times.

[Free in Christ]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

1 Pet. 3:21-
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

There is a baptism in water and a baptism of Spirit that happens the moment one believes.  That baptism is not the putting away of the flesh, but a baptism of the spirit through belief in Him.

He is immersed within me and I am immersed within Him.

Do you see?

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

John 3:5-
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enterinto the kingdom of God.

Born of water is the physical birth.  Born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth that happens the moment one believes.  This passage has nothing to do with baptism by immersion in water.

There is a physical birth and there is a spiritual birth.  John 3:5 being a reference to baptism by immersion in water is wholistically an LDS concept read into the passage, but not what was said.

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Mark 16:16-
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are other scriptures where the teaching is implied but these are the verses where it is specifically taught.

So according to this passage, if I believe without being immersed in water, am I saved or damned?  Specifically what is it that saved me?

Also important to keep in mind there IS a baptism that happens the moment one believes.  Just because the scripture says "baptized" doesn't mean immersion in water.

All of the other scriptures used to support immersion in water also have another interpretation that does not support the LDS conclusion, but please share.