Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[Waylon]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The problem is they hold onto too much of Catholicism. They accept the Nicene Creed with its idea of consubstantiality. It really just does not make sense.

If you are breaking from Catholicism why would you keep half their theology?

The Trinity should be a central doctrine of the Bible but it is not. Yes they search around and find a scripture here in a scripture there that possibly describe that kind of thing. But we are talking about essential Doctrine here, the nature of God. It simply isn't there as they believe it is.

Agreed!

(And yes, I am responding to your post to hit 25 posts so I can have full functionality on this site)

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

Right!  Same reason we believe the Bible - a choice.

I don't want to impose, but one of the beliefs I have always found odd is Sola Scriptura. It is probably one of those areas of preconceived notions that I have about other religions that I get wrong . I am sure you have heard the question many a time, but given that the Bible itself is in so many different translations and languages and given that men are entirely fallible , how does one go about determining which interpretation of any particular passage is the one God intended? 

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I don't want to impose, but one of the beliefs I have always found odd is Sola Scriptura. It is probably one of those areas of preconceived notions that I have about other religions that I get wrong . I am sure you have heard the question many a time, but given that the Bible itself is in so many different translations and languages and given that men are entirely fallible , how does one go about determining which interpretation of any particular passage is the one God intended? 

That was my question. Still waiting for an answer.

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

What about the day of Pentecost? Those that heard the Word that day were converted when their hearts were pricked by the message. There is no indication that any of them read the scriptures.

or Paul’s conversion. He was a pharisee deeply educated with the scriptures. But they didn’t convert Him. Revelation did.

and then there is the question, what is the word of God? The Bible wasn’t finished being written when that scripture occurred. How does one know the New Testament is true? 

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth?

That is an excellent question.

1) Because we’ve tested it. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth in a way we cannot ignore. As Christ said if we do what He says we will know for ourself weather the doctrine is from the Father.

2) because Moroni’s promise is consistent with the Principles the Lord teaches us in the Bible such as:

ask and ye shall recieve. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.

If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally 

do the doctrine and you shall know for yourself 

the Holy Spirit teaches truth.

no man can know things of the spirit except by the Spirit

if moroni’s promise is false and God will not answer sincere prayers to know truth then one must conclude the Bible is false as  well.

im not prepared to accept that premise

[FunOnlineMan]

 

Quote

 

 I am sure you have heard the question many a time, but given that the Bible itself is in so many different translations and languages and given that men are entirely fallible , how does one go about determining which interpretation of any particular passage is the one God intended? 

Curious how sola scripturians decide on King James’ version of the Bible. What about that whole process was enough to convince you that the Bible you are using to confirm all this stuff about grace and works is actually even the Bible®, let alone it being true?

Edited July 26, 2018 by FunOnlineMan

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

How do you know the Bible is God’s word?

[Meerkat]

13 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I'm a Baptist and, even though I'm not disagreeing with much of your observations, I have a slightly different opinion on a few things you said.

May I ask, why do you believe God's test of truth is a feeling in your heart?

This is how the Apostle Paul described it to the Corinthians, which also corresponds to my experience, and most LDS I am familiar with:

"9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
            10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
            11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
            12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
            13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
            14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."                    1 Cor. 2:9-14.

Does this correspond to how you receive revelation?  If it doesn't, why not?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Meerkat

[bdouglas]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:38 PM, Free in Christ said:

 

Thanks for sharing.  I am a member of a Baptist congregation and can confirm there is enormous interest in reaching the LDS community, specifically areas that don't have a local Baptist [or similar] congregation available.  

I plan on making an annual visit (1500+ miles one way) with several other area Baptist congregations to help share what we believe with LDS friends.

We have the same ethic as LDS Christians; while we appreciate LDS values and the many positive elements they possess, we hope to share the truth in love.

Below is an exchange I had with a woman, "Kate", who'd left Mormonism and was contemplating becoming a Protestant (mostly, I think, because a man she wanted to marry was a Protestant).
 

Quote

 

BEN: You have left Mormonism, but you say you still believe in Christ?

KATE: Yes, I still believe in Christ.

BEN: What evidence do you have for the existence of Christ?

KATE: Josephus mentions him in his “History Of the Jews”, written around 100 BC.

BEN: So it’s safe to say there was a man named Jesus living among the Jews around 30 BC. But what evidence is there of His divinity, that he was/is the Son of God? What evidence is there he was resurrected and rose again on the third day?

KATE: It’s in the Bible. The Twelve saw him after his resurrection, as well as many others during the 40 days he spent with the apostles after his resurrection.

BEN: But can any of this be documented? It’s in the Bible, you say, but what is the Bible? It’s an odd assortment of writings by numerous authors cobbled together over a thousand years. For example, Bible scholars date the four gospels to long after the four evangelists were dead.

KATE: So?

BEN: That doesn’t bother you, that nothing in the Bible, the Divinity of Christ, the Resurrection——It doesn’t bother you that none of this can be documented?

KATE: I haven’t really thought about it, but thinking about it now, I’d have to say that no, it doesn’t bother me.

BEN: Well this is interesting to me, and the reason it’s interesting to me is, you say, “Mormonism cannot be proven. There is no evidence there were Nephites.” But what evidence can you produce that Paul saw Christ on the road to Damascus or that Christ was transfigured in the presence of Peter, James and John?

KATE: Yeah, yeah, I get your point.

BEN: One of the interesting features of Mormonism is, it can be documented. All of the supernatural events——the First Vision, Moroni, the vision the Three Witnesses saw, what the Eight Witnesses saw, Joseph’s and Sidney Rigdon’s vision of Christ and the three degrees of glory in section 76, the vision of Joseph and Oliver Cowdery of Christ in the Kirtland temple in section 110——all of this and much more is thoroughly documented. Taking the Three and Eight Witnesses alone, there are over 100 formal statements they made attesting to what they saw, right up until 1888 when the last of them, David Whitmer, died. These are first person statements that can be historically documented. There is no other religion in the world that can boast of anything remotely like this.

KATE: So? What’s your point?

BEN: My point is, you dismiss all of this, these supernatural events that happened in the years 1820 to 1844, which were nothing less than God intervening in the lives of men in the modern age, God speaking a new word to man, all of which can be thoroughly documented——you blithely dismiss all of this for a religion not only stuck in centuries old creeds, but a religion that cannot be historically documented——i.e., the supernatural events upon which this religion is founded cannot be documented in any historical sense.

KATE: So? I still prefer Protestantism to Mormonism. The happiest day of my life when I left the cult of Mormonism.

 

And so on and so on it went with this woman, over the course of a dozen or so emails. I only actually met her once but we emailed a lot. I have heard this woman has since left Protestantism and returned to Mormonism. But I don’t know for sure. It’s been ten years since we talked.

[bdouglas]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:38 PM, Free in Christ said:

 

Thanks for sharing.  I am a member of a Baptist congregation and can confirm there is enormous interest in reaching the LDS community, specifically areas that don't have a local Baptist [or similar] congregation available.  

I plan on making an annual visit (1500+ miles one way) with several other area Baptist congregations to help share what we believe with LDS friends.

We have the same ethic as LDS Christians; while we appreciate LDS values and the many positive elements they possess, we hope to share the truth in love.

You are certainly free to proselyte Utah LDS (I, for one, would welcome you into my home), but I doubt you'll have much success. Most LDS who leave the faith do no migrate to Protestantism  (or Caltholicism). Why would they? It would be like going backwards. In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent).

Edited July 26, 2018 by bdouglas

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bdouglas said:

You are certainly free to proselyte Utah LDS (I, for one, would welcome you into my home), but I doubt you'll have much success. Most LDS who leave the faith do no migrate to Protestantism  or Caltholicism. Why would they? It would be like going backwards. In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent).

I don't think you're helping anyone by saying that other people's religious beliefs are like going backward from your own. 

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

In my opinion, revelation can come in a number of ways, usually accompanied by a spiritual manifestation from the Holy Ghost.  For me, I was first inspired by an alter call in my youth.  I almost immediately fell away, but had my faith in Jesus Christ renewed nearly ten years later.  Scripture study strengthened that faith.

Joseph Smith, reading the Bible, prayed when he read James 1:5. " If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."  God answered his prayer, which resulted in the Book of Mormon translation.  When I read that book, and prayed to know if it was true, the same Spirit that testified of Jesus Christ in that alter call spiritually testified to my heart that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and is a true book.  That is the pattern I followed-- scripture study, prayer and revelation.

Does this conform to a way you receive personal revelation?

Edited July 26, 2018 by Meerkat

[CA Steve]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That was my question. Still waiting for an answer.

Here's the thing. I believe that those that hold to Sola Scriptura probably have, what they think, are very good reasons for that. Reasons that you and I probably don't see as very convincing. But on the other hand they probably do not find the testimonials of how well Moroni's promise works, very convincing either.

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, bdouglas said:

You are certainly free to proselyte Utah LDS (I, for one, would welcome you into my home), but I doubt you'll have much success. Most LDS who leave the faith do no migrate to Protestantism  (or Caltholicism). Why would they? It would be like going backwards. In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent).

I would be interested in any evidence you could present showing where post-LDS members go. I have frequently heard the the same thing you claim here but never seen any evidence to support such claims.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I would be interested in any evidence you could present showing where post-LDS members go. I have frequently heard the the same thing you claim here but never seen any evidence to support such claims.

Steve, I won’t tell him about our “Welcome to Atheism” parties if you don’t. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Here's the thing. I believe that those that hold to Sola Scriptura probably have, what they think, are very good reasons for that. Reasons that you and I probably don't see as very convincing. But on the other hand they probably do not find the testimonials of how well Moroni's promise works, very convincing either.

I don't think it is about having good reasons, but whether or not their reasons for believing the Bible is true are consistent with their criticisms of how Mormon's approach truth seeking.

[bdouglas]

40 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I would be interested in any evidence you could present showing where post-LDS members go. I have frequently heard the the same thing you claim here but never seen any evidence to support such claims.

I said, "In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent)."

"In my experience...." I don't know if there have been any studies of where people who leave the LDS faith go. In my experience, or among my circle of acquaintances and family, both extended and immediate, none have joined any Protestant church, none have joined the Catholics or converted to Judaism, etc. Some are simply agnostic (at least one claims to be an atheist), and some are what I would characterize as New Age.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

I said, "In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent)."

"In my experience...." I don't know if there have been any studies of where people who leave the LDS faith go. In my experience, or among my circle of acquaintances and family, both extended and immediate, none have joined any Protestant church, none have joined the Catholics or converted to Judaism, etc. Some are simply agnostic (at least one claims to be an atheist), and some are what I would characterize as New Age.

My sister converted to Judaism. 

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

I said, "In my experience, most LDS who leave the faith become agnostic, or they adopt some form of New Age religion (and New Age religion is basically anything you want it to be, it is a very big tent)."

"In my experience...." I don't know if there have been any studies of where people who leave the LDS faith go. In my experience, or among my circle of acquaintances and family, both extended and immediate, none have joined any Protestant church, none have joined the Catholics or converted to Judaism, etc. Some are simply agnostic (at least one claims to be an atheist), and some are what I would characterize as New Age.

I haven't sincerely looked for another religion..interested in many but maintain just a spirituality that contains my previous beliefs mixed with my own morals and experience.  I still believe in God.  Hangin on...I know many people have a hard time with that.  I am 62..so I wouldn't know what new age would look like.

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My sister converted to Judaism. 

Much easier for a sister than for a brother ... 

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I know many people have a hard time with that.

Latter-day Saints shouldn't: 'Let them worship how, where, or what they may'.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Much easier for a sister than for a brother ... 

I know what you mean, but it was a difficult thing for my parents to accept. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It was a difficult thing for my parents to accept. 

Absolutely. I'm sensitive to this possibility every single time that someone converts to our faith as well. I don't blame anyone for feeling a sense of loss or betrayal. I would feel the same in their shoes. And I'm genuinely amazed and grateful at how often family members instead seem really supportive, though it takes a few of them some time. I would hope I could be the same.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth?

There are only two ways and all religions of the world fall into one of these:

Works or Grace.  

If man's works are required for <insert form of heaven>, then the way is the way of works.  This is the broad way since 99% of all the worlds religions require man to do something to reach  <insert form of heaven>.

The way of grace mans no amount of man's works are required.  It is a way of God's grace - He did everything He required for those who choose to believe in Him.  This is a very lonely road and narrow,  with a narrow door.

Only Jesus offers eternal life today as a free gift.  No other religion in the world offers that.

Go ahead - look it up.

"Look it up?"

I have been studying religion for 50 years now so I don't have much need to look it up, but thanks for the suggestion.  I have myself practiced Catholicism, Buddhism and Mormonism and have studied Zorastrianism extensively which, it might be argued, is the father of both Judaism and Christianity.  Just ask yourself how the Zoroastrian "Magi" found in the bible knew of Christ's birth?  Because the Zoroastrians arguably knew about it long before the Hebrew prophets. But that is another discussion.  And of course I have Hindu friends whom I have helped teach the gospel.

I would like to know more about Islam.

Your idea of the idea of the division between "faith and works" to reach "salvation" is pretty simplistic so I won't go into that either.

Faith itself can be seen as a "work" and declaring Christ to be the Savior is pretty clearly a "work" to me but I suppose that is an endless debate in itself, and trivial as all discussions of semantics tend to be.  So I pretty much avoid the nonsensical distinction.

Quote

Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth?

There you go!  Now we are getting somewhere!

For purposes of this discussion to keep things simple, let's say there are at least two ways we can "know" something.

One is through hearsay from books or texts or etc.

Unless you have been there you know that Antarctica exists because you have seen pictures, looked at maps, had faith that the books and the maps were "telling the truth" and accepted the existence of Antarctica without thinking about it much.

That is the way most Christians accept the Bible I am afraid, because the existence of Antarctica can be empirically tested quite easily and the teachings of the Bible cannot be empirically tested at all.  Period.

Another way we know things is through direct personal experience.

We know the sky is blue BECAUSE we agree on what defines the color "blue" - it is the color of the sky on a clear day

A blind person has to take the existence of "blue" on faith - because she cannot experience it directly.  She has to take it on faith that "red" is quite different than "blue"

So asking how we know Moroni's test works is exactly the same way we know that blue is "blue" and not "red"

We have direct personal experience of what the spirit feels like.  Yes there are nuances, yes in strange lighting blue may appear more white, etc and yes occasionally we may get the color wrong as in the famous blue dress experiment on the internet.

Such is life- we make mistakes sometimes in perception.  We have to live with that failing.

But Moroni's promise gives us DIRECT EXPERIENCE, not hearsay

Someone might tell you the stove is hot, and that is hearsay.  Maybe they are telling the truth maybe not.

But walking up to the stove, wetting your finger to be safe, and touching the stove your self gives you DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

It is not a question of "how" we know - it is a question of what the word "knowledge" means itself.

It is like asking "How do you know the sky is blue" when you can see it for yourself because you CAN see!!

The blind man must go by hearsay, but the man with sight can tell you by direct experience that he knows what "blue" is.

Oh and the "FREE GIFT"?

OOPS- not so free after all to the billions of God's children who lived before Christ or after Christ and never even heard His name!!

How could they get the "free gift" if they could not possibly believe in Christ because he did not even exist to them??

How is that "FREE" when you have to have lived under the right conditions and be taught in just the right way, accepted the Bible sola sciptura, and done a host of other things required to be fortunate enough to get the message and understand it??

Now what we have IS a FREE GIFT to humanity!

All of humanity will be resurrected into a kingdom of glory which you would call "heaven" -since your understanding appears to us to be quite limited of what heaven even IS- to us- essentially the Telestial Kingdom - IF THEY ACCEPT THE MORMON GOSPEL OR NOT.   NOW THAT is a FREE GIFT- no strings, no belief in Christ- nothing

Resurrection AND "heaven" even if they have never heard of Christ!

Section 76

Quote

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.....

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

 

So don't worry if you are of the denomination of "Paul" or "Apollos" or John Smyth or Wesley or Calvin or Luther you will get exactly what you believe you will- you will get to a place of peace which surpasses understanding, and glow like a star in heaven!   

It's Christ's free gift you are talking about even if you are "some of Christ and some of John....Smyth!"

So yes we agree- what you preach as "heaven" IS a free gift for eternity!  Eternal life!  Except for us it really IS FREE

And what's more- if these desire and accept learning more in the afterlife they can move on from kingdom to kingdom and achieve anything any Mormon can achieve, because we will have missionaries there as we do here, preaching and teaching the true gospel which goes to ALL of God's children- if they had the chance to "accept Christ" or not!

This is precisely why we do work for the dead in Temples- so that all can have all the blessings God has for ALL his children!

I hope that helps you understand

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Waylon said:

Agreed!

(And yes, I am responding to your post to hit 25 posts so I can have full functionality on this site)

Well then here is another you can reply to!

Well I disagree with your agreement with my point because...  uh.... I am disagreeable! I am very picky about whom I allow to agree with me, and I barely even know you.