Bankruptcies and High Callings in the Church

[redjumbo]

Hey everybody! I had an interesting conversation the other day:

Does anybody know whether anybody has ever declared bankruptcy and then gone on to hold high positions in the Church? Joseph Smith and J Golden Kimball both did back in the day, and I think I read somewhere that Bruce R McConkie had ownership in a business that declared bankruptcy.

 

It seems like there are no modern General Authorities (or Area Authorities, or possibly even Stake Presidents) who have ever declared bankruptcy. I also know as the CES will not employ people who have ever declared bankruptcy (at least as of a few years ago). If that’s the case, then is bankrutpcy something that while not making somebody officially unworthy, still ensures that they will not hold any prominent positions in the church?

 

So, again:

1 – Is anybody aware of any people who have held high callings in the Church after declaring bankruptcy?

2 – Does it seem like bankruptcy is something that precludes holding prominent positions (kind of like divorce unofficially seems to)?

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

[Guest]

Away we troll...

[redjumbo]

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trolling.... I'm not, and I'm sorry that I articulated the question in a way that sounded that way 😕

Or maybe it's the topic that sounds that way.

I don't want to rock the boat - if this seems volatile, don't respond, and the thread can die.

But if anybody does have any insight or thoughts on the matter, I would appreciate it.

[JAHS]

That would seem like a very hard thing to find out about anyone. Not sure how anyone could get that information

1 hour ago, redjumbo said:

then is bankrutpcy something that while not making somebody officially unworthy, still ensures that they will not hold any prominent positions in the church?

Bankrutpcy would not make someone unofficially unworthy, unless they  broke the law somehow.  Bankruptcy would be a very stressful situation to be in and I would think  such a person ging through that may not be called to a position simply because they have greater things to worry about, not because they are unworthy in any way. 
If they had undergone bankruptcy in the past but was now successfully out of it and the strees of it and never did anything illegal connected with it, I don't see why they would not be called to a positon.

Edited July 2, 2018 by JAHS

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, redjumbo said:

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trolling.... I'm not, and I'm sorry that I articulated the question in a way that sounded that way 😕

Or maybe it's the topic that sounds that way.

I don't want to rock the boat - if this seems volatile, don't respond, and the thread can die.

But if anybody does have any insight or thoughts on the matter, I would appreciate it.

Just a very odd thread for one's first thread. Also, the social hall is not for the kind of debate (probably) this thread will create. Besides, bankruptcy is not a sin, depending on the circumstances. If it were, certainly not a sin one can repent of, by seeking in any way to make restitution in every was possible.    

[JAHS]

12 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Also, the social hall is not for the kind of debate (probably) this thread will create.

Can't remember, are first time posters not allowed to start a post in the General Discussions page? Maybe that's why he posted it here?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Can't remember, are first time posters not allowed to start a post in the General Discussions page? Maybe that's why he posted it here?

Most, if not all must have 25 posts first. Maybe I am wrong?

[Rain]

Yes, before you can start threads in Discussions you must have enough posts first. 

[mnn727]

On 7/1/2018 at 9:46 PM, redjumbo said:

2 – Does it seem like bankruptcy is something that precludes holding prominent positions (kind of like divorce unofficially seems to)?

 

Boy, I guess I'm out of luck, I declared bankruptcy shortly after divorcing my first wife - she maxed out 4 high limit credit cards as we were close to divorcing.

Edited July 3, 2018 by mnn727

[Tacenda]

It's probably not news to anyone that at one time Utah was the number 1 state for bankruptcy filings. But now it's down to number 5. Which would include a lot of members of the church.

[Stargazer]

I have no idea about the policy regarding bankruptcy and higher callings -- but I don't see bankruptcy as a necessarily disqualifying condition.

But how are they going to find out, anyway?  Unless something like this is personal knowledge -- for instance, it happened in a high profile way -- nobody's going to know.

The church does not, so far as I know, anyway, do credit checks before issuing callings.  That's the only way to find out, short of its being a matter of public knowledge.  And after 7 years, even bankruptcies disappear from one's credit record.  

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:45 PM, Tacenda said:

It's probably not news to anyone that at one time Utah was the number 1 state for bankruptcy filings. But now it's down to number 5. Which would include a lot of members of the church.

How do you know?  I mean, perhaps you're right, but isn't "would include a lot of members of the church" an assumption on your part?  Is there some reason why we should assume automatically that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are especially likely to declare bankruptcy?  While it's true that Utah's population is heavily Mormon, what if the vast majority of bankruptcies in Utah are declared by non-Mormons or by those who no longer believe and/or by those who, allegedly, are "leaving the Church in droves" (my phrase)?

In any event, while, sometimes, bankruptcy might be inevitable or necessary for those who are among the best Latter-day Saints one knows, my feeling (which is at least as valid as yours, so far, since the latter has no evidence [yet] to back it up )  is that bankruptcy would be far less the rule than it would be the exception among such people.  If one is in dire straits financially and is in no way responsible for his "ox being in the mire" as the phrase goes(and even if he is responsible for his "ox being in the mire": all of us need to repent at some time(s) for some thing(s)), he can always seek assistance for necessaries from the Church of Jesus Christ through his bishop.

In any event, following the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would seem to make one less likely to need to resort to declaring bankruptcy rather than more likely to do so.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/one-for-the-money?lang=eng

https://providentliving.lds.org/?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

How do you know?  I mean, perhaps you're right, but isn't "would include a lot of members of the church" an assumption on your part?  Is there some reason why we should assume automatically that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are especially likely to declare bankruptcy?  While it's true that Utah's population is heavily Mormon, what if the vast majority of bankruptcies in Utah are declared by non-Mormons or by those who no longer believe and/or by those who, allegedly, are "leaving the Church in droves" (my phrase)?

In any event, while, sometimes, bankruptcy might be inevitable or necessary for those who are among the best Latter-day Saints one knows, my feeling (which is at least as valid as yours, so far, since the latter has no evidence [yet] to back it up )  is that bankruptcy would be far less the rule than it would be the exception among such people.  If one is in dire straits financially and is in no way responsible for his "ox being in the mire" as the phrase goes(and even if he is responsible for his "ox being in the mire": all of us need to repent at some time(s) for some thing(s)), he can always seek assistance for necessaries from the Church of Jesus Christ through his bishop.

In any event, following the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would seem to make one less likely to need to resort to declaring bankruptcy rather than more likely to do so.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/one-for-the-money?lang=eng

https://providentliving.lds.org/?lang=eng

It might be a keeping up with the Jones's scenario or the idea that the more righteous the more blessed and looking the part, I don't know. Or the scenario of our friend mnn727's exwife, who maxed out 4 credit cards. Or our large families and being able to take care of them and possible health care costs.

Not an indicator, but my BIL told my husband he was shocked at the people that would come to the bishop for help for bills, and they had nice vehicles, homes and boats etc. But it runs the gamut, and I'm not blaming LDS only.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It might be a keeping up with the Jones's scenario or the idea that the more righteous the more blessed and looking the part, I don't know. Or the scenario of our friend mnn727's exwife, who maxed out 4 credit cards. Or our large families and being able to take care of them and possible health care costs.

Not an indicator, but my BIL told my husband he was shocked at the people that would come to the bishop for help for bills, and they had nice vehicles, homes and boats etc. But it runs the gamut, and I'm not blaming LDS only.

One of the reasons that Utah was number 1 in bankruptcy was because of old state laws which allowed debt collectors to garnish wages very easily, which wasn't the case in other states.  People declared bankruptcy to keep that from happening.

Once the law changed to protect debtors from unfair wage garnishment, bankruptcies in Utah fell dramatically.

[Exiled]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:38 AM, bluebell said:

One of the reasons that Utah was number 1 in bankruptcy was because of old state laws which allowed debt collectors to garnish wages very easily, which wasn't the case in other states.  People declared bankruptcy to keep that from happening.

Once the law changed to protect debtors from unfair wage garnishment, bankruptcies in Utah fell dramatically.

What's this law regarding garnishments and when was it changed?  Could you give me the cite to the statute?  Also, Utah is still high in per capita bk filings at no. 9 according to abi (american bankruptcy institute).  https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-statistics

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Exiled said:

What's this law regarding garnishments and when was it changed?  Could you give me the cite to the statute?  Also, Utah is still high in per capita bk filings at no. 9 according to abi (american bankruptcy institute).  https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-statistics

Utah's bankruptcy rate...

The article is 9 years old so its statements about Utah's current ranking is dated.

[rpn]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:13 PM, mnn727 said:

Boy, I guess I'm out of luck, I declared bankruptcy shortly after divorcing my first wife - she maxed out 4 high limit credit cards as we were close to divorcing.

Lots of members would be celebrating it if it were only accurate/assured.   God makes of people what they'll let Him.

[The Nehor]

I make it a personal habit to shun the bankrupted, the single, the divorced, and the poor. Not sure how well the Church as a whole is following my righteous example.

[mrmarklin]

Having been involved professionally with several bankruptcies, the answer to the OP question is likely in the facts and circumstances of each case.  These can vary wildly, from people perpetrating outright scams, to just poor business judgement, wherein the creditor tries to eventually pay back his debts.

What does Nehor have against single people?   We were all single once!  And many of you still are, based on posting in this forum.

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Having been involved professionally with several bankruptcies, the answer to the OP question is likely in the facts and circumstances of each case.  These can vary wildly, from people perpetrating outright scams, to just poor business judgement, wherein the creditor tries to eventually pay back his debts.

What does Nehor have against single people?   We were all single once!  And many of you still are, based on posting in this forum.

Being single himself, The Nehor clearly has a problem with himself.  As well he might!

[Kenngo1969]

44 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Being single himself, The Nehor clearly has a problem with himself.  As well he might!

Yeah, well, some of us were lucky enough to find True Love ... twice!  ... while others of us ... weeeeelllllll ... ) 

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:14 AM, Tacenda said:

... Not an indicator, but my BIL told my husband he was shocked at the people that would come to the bishop for help for bills, and they had nice vehicles, homes and boats etc. But it runs the gamut, and I'm not blaming LDS only.

It's a good thing I'll never be a bishop, because if I were, I might tell those folks, "Yep, you're house-poor and car-poor [meaning, you have too much house and too much car for your income].  But you're in luck!  The Joneses are renting out a nice (but much smaller) house which will be suitable for your income, and the Andersons are looking to unload their 2008 (but still perfectly serviceable) Toyota Sienna so they can buy something newer!"  Voila!  Problems solved!

And your mileage may vary (perhaps you live in an unusual neck of the woods) but I've found that the more righteous one is, the less one cares about looking the part.  See, e.g., Alma 60:23, Matthew 7:16-20, Matthew 23:25-28, and so on, ad infinitum).

Edited July 14, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yeah, well, some of us were lucky enough to find True Love ... twice!  ... while others of us ... weeeeelllllll ... ) 

I bow my head in shame at my marital privilege. 

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's a good thing I'll never be a bishop, because if I were, I might tell those folks, "Yep, you're house-poor and car-poor [meaning, you have too much house and too much car for your income].  But you're in luck!  The Joneses are renting out a nice (but much smaller) house which will be suitable for your income, and the Andersons are looking to unload their 2008 (but still perfectly serviceable) Toyota Sienna so they can buy something newer!"  Voila!  Problems solved!

That doesn't always work.  An expensive car or house might very well be not yet paid off, and be worth less than the amount owed on it.  If you give the house or car back to the bank they are NOT going to be very happy with you.  Your credit will tank, and you'll be dealing with demands for making up the difference.  

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I bow my head in shame at my marital privilege. 

No need, as long as you recognize how blessed you are.