Does Baptism Make You a Christian?

[Five Solas]

Full disclosure:  I subscribe to believer baptism (also called credobaptism).  I find the order of events throughout the New Testament (particularly the Book of Acts) persuasive, baptism follows conversion and not the other way round.  My oldest is 9 and she has not yet been baptized.  We’ve talked about it and she’s thought about it – but it’s not something she’s yet asked to do nor do we want her to feel pressured or feel that baptism is something she should do because it’s what her parents desire for her.  When the time is right, it will come from her, not from us.

Now that acknowledged, I respect the arguments made by those who practice infant baptism.  Certainly nowhere in the Bible is this practice forbidden.  I’m very comfortable with Christians following their conscience on the matter.

So now with all that said, I wanted to explore the topic of baptism and Christianity here.  A few weeks back an LDS poster told me I was mistaken to have claimed to have become a Christian in my 30’s – he wrote: "Sorry to interrupt, but if you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at age 8, then you were already a Christian."

I found the statement startling and its implication profound.  If I were a Christian all along—then the change in my life when I came to profess faith must be attributable to something else, something besides the converting work of the Holy Spirit.  But the point here isn’t to encourage speculation on my life or motives, the point is to illustrate why the question matters, why it is important and worth our time to consider.

So what do folks here think, does baptism make a person a Christian?

--Erik

 

[Gray]

"Christian" is poorly defined. I'm all for letting people define what it means for themselves.

 

[Storm Rider]

Baptism is one of the things sought out after an individual has committed to following Jesus Christ.  Baptism, as you already know, occurs no earlier than when an age of accountability has been achieved and by the desire of the individual.  

I can easily understand how a LDS would say that you were already Christian when you were baptized. I would expect most would assume that you had committed to take upon you the name of Jesus Christ prior to being baptized.  So, if you were baptized in the Church of Jesus Christ then you should have already committed to follow Jesus Christ.

It seems that language only has value when we understand one another.  It is the reason we have dictionaries that define words so that we can understand one another.  It is a challenge when we invent new definitions for words without explaining our new definition.  Within religion humans like to assign new definitions - like the term "Christian" - some would define it requiring that you believe in the concept of the Trinity.  Thus, if you don't believe in the Trinity then you cannot be Christian.  The problem, of course, is that there is no support for such a definition in the Bible.  We like to create definitions if by doing so we can then define ourselves as superior to all others.  No one is immune to such.

[FormerLDS]

While I agree with Gray's point regarding the term "Christian", I do think Acts 10 is very easy for anyone to comprehend:

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” Acts 10:44-48 

Admittedly, I can see how anyone could misunderstand the doctrine of water baptism because there are certain passages that seem to indicate that point of view.  I find it impossible to think that I once could actually believe that of "born again" referred to baptism in water in John 3:3-6. 

 

[JLHPROF]

I went with option 2 - I’m LDS and I think a person becomes a Christian when he/she has an authentic belief in the person & work of Christ.

But that is dependent upon the definition of Christian.  If you define Christian as a believer in Christ then #2 works.
If you define Christian as someone who has entered the covenant with Christ then #1 would be better - I’m LDS and I think a person becomes a Christian when he/she is baptized.

So, is the definition of Christian being used that of a believer, or a covenant follower?

[Jane_Doe]

The poll here doesn't have my option.  The Bible defines "Christian" as a disciple of Christ.  A person is a disciple of Christ every day that they choose to follow Him.  It's not a one time thing, but a lifetime of continual discipleship. 

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Full disclosure:  I subscribe to believer baptism (also called credobaptism).  I find the order of events throughout the New Testament (particularly the Book of Acts) persuasive, baptism follows conversion and not the other way round.  My oldest is 9 and she has not yet been baptized.  We’ve talked about it and she’s thought about it – but it’s not something she’s yet asked to do nor do we want her to feel pressured or feel that baptism is something she should do because it’s what her parents desire for her.  When the time is right, it will come from her, not from us.

Now that acknowledged, I respect the arguments made by those who practice infant baptism.  Certainly nowhere in the Bible is this practice forbidden.  I’m very comfortable with Christians following their conscience on the matter.

So now with all that said, I wanted to explore the topic of baptism and Christianity here.  A few weeks back an LDS poster told me I was mistaken to have claimed to have become a Christian in my 30’s – he wrote: "Sorry to interrupt, but if you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at age 8, then you were already a Christian."

I found the statement startling and its implication profound.  If I were a Christian all along—then the change in my life when I came to profess faith must be attributable to something else, something besides the converting work of the Holy Spirit.  But the point here isn’t to encourage speculation on my life or motives, the point is to illustrate why the question matters, why it is important and worth our time to consider.

So what do folks here think, does baptism make a person a Christian?

--Erik

 

While I clicked on the second button, I would rephrase it to say, "I’m LDS and I think a person becomes a Christian when he/she claims has an authentic belief in the person & work of Christ or identifies with a Christian tradition or denomination."

[filovirus]

A Christian is a follower of Christ. Christ was baptized, so we follow his example and are baptized likewise. As we are baptized, we are affirming our commitment to "take upon them the name of they Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them." (D&C 20: 77)

I honestly don't think it matters the exact moment that one sees himself as Christian. Whether before or during the baptism ordinance, one is still following Christ's example.

[strappinglad]

Did John the Baptist ' restore ' the concept of baptism? Did his followers consider themselves Christians ?

I think it is possible to be a Christian before baptism just as it is possible to be baptized and not be very Christian.

While I'm asking questions , when were the original 12 baptized and by whom ?

Edited February 9, 2018 by strappinglad

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

The poll here doesn't have my option.  The Bible defines "Christian" as a disciple of Christ.  A person is a disciple of Christ every day that they choose to follow Him.  It's not a one time thing, but a lifetime of continual discipleship. 

I would say yours was included, Jane_Doe.  The following will come after the believing--if the belief is authentic.  "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16, KJV).  And that was certainly one of the options I listed.  Do you really disagree with me? 

--Erik

[kiwi57]

11 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Full disclosure:  I subscribe to believer baptism (also called credobaptism).  I find the order of events throughout the New Testament (particularly the Book of Acts) persuasive, baptism follows conversion and not the other way round.  My oldest is 9 and she has not yet been baptized.  We’ve talked about it and she’s thought about it – but it’s not something she’s yet asked to do nor do we want her to feel pressured or feel that baptism is something she should do because it’s what her parents desire for her.  When the time is right, it will come from her, not from us.

Now that acknowledged, I respect the arguments made by those who practice infant baptism.  Certainly nowhere in the Bible is this practice forbidden.  I’m very comfortable with Christians following their conscience on the matter.

So now with all that said, I wanted to explore the topic of baptism and Christianity here.  A few weeks back an LDS poster told me I was mistaken to have claimed to have become a Christian in my 30’s – he wrote: "Sorry to interrupt, but if you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at age 8, then you were already a Christian."

I found the statement startling and its implication profound.  If I were a Christian all along—then the change in my life when I came to profess faith must be attributable to something else, something besides the converting work of the Holy Spirit.  But the point here isn’t to encourage speculation on my life or motives, the point is to illustrate why the question matters, why it is important and worth our time to consider.

So what do folks here think, does baptism make a person a Christian?

--Erik

 

There is, of course, an element of equivocation in your question. When I said that you became a Christian when you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at the age of eight, I was of course referring to affiliation.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, as everyone knows who is both honest and informed on the subject, a Christian Church; ergo, its members are Christians. When you told us that you'd once been a Mormon and subsequently became a "Christian," you were slyly denying the reality of Mormon Christianity. I think you know quite well that that was the insinuation I was challenging.

That same insinuation is found in the last question in your poll: "I'm neither LDS nor Christian." This smuggles an "either-or" dichotomy -- which is demonstrably false -- into the discussion.

Please note that the earliest use of the term "Christian" is plural, christianoi, and is apparently modelled after the Greek term augustianoi meaning those of the household (or party) of Augustus, referring to the emperor. IOW, it denoted allegiance, not any kind of inner state.

Baptism is the mark of a covenant to take upon oneself the name of Christ. It is by thus taking upon ourselves His name that we become Christians in fact. Whether we are especially good Christians is, of course, a different question.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Full disclosure:  I subscribe to believer baptism (also called credobaptism).  I find the order of events throughout the New Testament (particularly the Book of Acts) persuasive, baptism follows conversion and not the other way round..........................................

So now with all that said, I wanted to explore the topic of baptism and Christianity here.  A few weeks back an LDS poster told me I was mistaken to have claimed to have become a Christian in my 30’s – he wrote: "Sorry to interrupt, but if you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at age 8, then you were already a Christian."

............................So what do folks here think, does baptism make a person a Christian?........

 

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Baptism is one of the things sought out after an individual has committed to following Jesus Christ.  .............................

I can easily understand how a LDS would say that you were already Christian when you were baptized. I would expect most would assume that you had committed to take upon you the name of Jesus Christ prior to being baptized.  So, if you were baptized in the Church of Jesus Christ then you should have already committed to follow Jesus Christ.................................................

Of course baptism does not make one a "Christian."  Baptism is an ordinance which demonstrates belief commitment, which (along with circumcision) is required for conversion to Judaism.  Thus, one must engage in immersion baptism (in a mikveh) to become a Jew, but that is allowed by the rabbis only after careful interrogation by a panel of rabbis into one's desire to convert to Judaism.  For men, circumcison by a mohel is required as well.  One then becomes a member of the Congregation of Israel, and subject to all the rules which that entails.  It is a formal covenant relationship.

Jewish Christianity followed the same rules, as we might expect -- except that blood circumcision was replaced by circumcision of the heart, and the stringent rules of Judaism (613 laws, including eating kosher) no longer required in their entirety.  Jesus himself was baptized.  He and his apostles baptized others.  Thus, being a member of the Christian Church (being a "Christian") required immersion baptism as well as a belief commitment -- followed by baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit.  That was the NT covenantal pattern, and (after the Resurrection) it included becoming part of the Body of Christ, His Church, the body of believers.  Who were they?  Various signs followed them that believed, and they were recipients of the fulness of the power of the Father and the Son.  For what they formally bound on Earth, was simultaneously bound in heaven, and whatever they dissolved on Earth was also dissolved in heaven.

Mormons seldom speak of becoming a "Christian," and I have never heard one say that baptism makes one a "Christian."  What I hear instead is that baptism and confirmation makes one a formal "member" of the LDS Church.  That is the point at which one is placed on the records of the Church as a member, even if one had been born to endowed parents and was considered BIC (born in the covenant).  Members of the LDS Church are normally spoken of by outsiders as being "Mormons," but to insiders as "Saints."  The term "Christian" is normative only for Protestant Christianity.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Jane_Doe]

14 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I would say yours was included, Jane_Doe.  The following will come after the believing--if the belief is authentic.  "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16, KJV).  And that was certainly one of the options I listed.  Do you really disagree with me? 

--Erik

I thought about selecting your option #2, but then it seemed like that option has a vibe like this accepting Christ is just a one-time-done-and-done thing.  Rather, I believe it's a continual thing: you accept Christ over and over again every day, and choose to follow Him over and over again every day.  

[rodheadlee]

Does wearing an NFL jersey make you an NFL player?

[USU78]

Baptism is a ritual reenactment of passing through the Red Sea as well as the Jordan. Israel became first a free people and then G-d's people by passing through water.

We take His name on us when we are adopted by Him. We are adopted by Him when we pass through water.

Alma, Sr was clear on this point.

Edited February 11, 2018 by USU78

[Five Solas]

41 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Does wearing an NFL jersey make you an NFL player?

If you had paid attention to a previous post, you would have learned the answer to your question is an emphatic yes via the logic of "affiliation."  Assuming, of course, that the wearer "is both honest and informed on the subject" and not "slyly denying the reality" that the NFL engages in real & true football... 

It happens. 

;0)

--Erik

__________________________________

We ain't no hooligans
This ain't a football song
Three lions on my chest
I know we can't go wrong

--New Order "World In Motion"

[Five Solas]

Question for LDS voting answer #2.  Do you really think your 8 year-olds meet this criteria 90+% of the time (or whatever the exact % happens to be)?  It's a pretty high bar, "authentic belief."  It implies they're not just doing it because the community expects it of them at age 8, because their parents and extended family want them to, etc.  

Do you really think this? 

--Erik

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Question for LDS voting answer #2.  Do you really think your 8 year-olds meet this criteria 90+% of the time (or whatever the exact % happens to be)?  It's a pretty high bar, "authentic belief."  It implies they're not just doing it because the community expects it of them at age 8, because their parents and extended family want them to, etc.  

Do you really think this? 

--Erik

Some do, some don't.  If they have been taught by their parents they are old enough to understand that there's a God, that Jesus is God's son, and that when you do something wrong there's a punishment attached.  And Jesus took our punishment if we will accept him.

Any 8 year old  child can understand at that level, if taught.  

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Question for LDS voting answer #2.  Do you really think your 8 year-olds meet this criteria 90+% of the time (or whatever the exact % happens to be)?  It's a pretty high bar, "authentic belief."  It implies they're not just doing it because the community expects it of them at age 8, because their parents and extended family want them to, etc.  

Do you really think this? 

--Erik

Mark 10:

13 ¶ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

 

I agree with Jesus.

[kiwi57]

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If you had paid attention to a previous post, you would have learned the answer to your question is an emphatic yes via the logic of "affiliation." 

No. He would not have.

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Assuming, of course, that the wearer "is both honest and informed on the subject" and not "slyly denying the reality" that the NFL engages in real & true football...

In your eagerness to slam my argument without actually engaging it, you have only succeeded in caricaturing it beyond recognition.

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

It happens. 

Frequently.

[boblloyd91]

Romans 6 is a great text on this question. Also see Acts 2:38, Ephesians 4:5, and John 3:5. If one looks at LDS scripture read 2 Nephi 31, as well as Mosiah 18. Of course without faith and the Holy Ghost baptism is meaningless, however I don’t see where it’s optional either. Interestingly one of my favorite blogs recently posted a good discussion on February 10th regarding Reformed arguments against water baptism 

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/search?q=Water+baptism&m=1

Edited February 11, 2018 by boblloyd91

[Five Solas]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Some do, some don't.  If they have been taught by their parents they are old enough to understand that there's a God, that Jesus is God's son, and that when you do something wrong there's a punishment attached.  And Jesus took our punishment if we will accept him.

Any 8 year old  child can understand at that level, if taught.  

Well, most 8-year old's could mouth the words back to you - I'll certainly grant you that.  Keep in mind you can get kids to say nice things about Santa, too.  'Cause you know, he's making a list & checkin' it twice, and he's gonna find out...

;0)

Did anyone else notice the thread on Patriarchal Blessings wherein we learn LDS youth are being admonished to wait until they are truly ready and to duly prepare themselves for the event.  Does anyone else find it curious the bar is a good deal higher for an LDS PB than it is for an LDS baptism?  If you consider the LDS Church to be a Christian church, then perhaps you should consider the event that makes an LDS member a Christian is the expression of faith and understanding commensurate with attaining a PB.  On the surface, it appears closer to answer/option #2 in the poll. 

--Erik

___________________________________

Blood runs through your veins
That's where our similarity ends
Blood runs through our veins

--Editors, 2005

 

[Meerkat]

On 2/8/2018 at 8:04 AM, Five Solas said:

Full disclosure:  I subscribe to believer baptism (also called credobaptism).  I find the order of events throughout the New Testament (particularly the Book of Acts) persuasive, baptism follows conversion and not the other way round.  My oldest is 9 and she has not yet been baptized.  We’ve talked about it and she’s thought about it – but it’s not something she’s yet asked to do nor do we want her to feel pressured or feel that baptism is something she should do because it’s what her parents desire for her.  When the time is right, it will come from her, not from us.

Now that acknowledged, I respect the arguments made by those who practice infant baptism.  Certainly nowhere in the Bible is this practice forbidden.  I’m very comfortable with Christians following their conscience on the matter.

So now with all that said, I wanted to explore the topic of baptism and Christianity here.  A few weeks back an LDS poster told me I was mistaken to have claimed to have become a Christian in my 30’s – he wrote: "Sorry to interrupt, but if you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ at age 8, then you were already a Christian."

I found the statement startling and its implication profound.  If I were a Christian all along—then the change in my life when I came to profess faith must be attributable to something else, something besides the converting work of the Holy Spirit.  But the point here isn’t to encourage speculation on my life or motives, the point is to illustrate why the question matters, why it is important and worth our time to consider.

So what do folks here think, does baptism make a person a Christian?

--Erik

 

I believe faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation and Gift of the Holy Ghost are ultimately required to live where God lives.  I also believe, based on my experience, that faith in Jesus Christ can bring about the transformation of a life from sin to a virtuous life without baptism. I see it in our Baptist neighbors also and others, including Five Solas (judging from our conversations.) 

[MiserereNobis]

On 2/8/2018 at 8:40 PM, kiwi57 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, as everyone knows who is both honest and informed on the subject, a Christian Church; ergo, its members are Christians.

You can have honest and informed people disagree with your statement. It's fairly caustic to say "if you disagree with me, you're either stupid or dishonest."

 Also, the word "church" in Christianity has multiple meanings, from a building to an organization to a mystical body of believers. Catholicism teaches that the Church of Christ, which is the mystical body of believers united with Our Lord, subsists in the Catholic Church (and only in the Catholic Church), which is the earthly organization.

Does Mormonism delve much into ecclesiology? What does "church" mean for LDS?

Edited February 13, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

On 2/10/2018 at 10:37 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Mark 10:

13 ¶ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

 

I agree with Jesus.

So, you're all good with infant baptism then?

(Joking, of course, but you did use this to respond to a post about 8 year olds being baptized)

Edited February 13, 2018 by MiserereNobis