Church Policy on Harassment, Stalking, etc.

[Calm]

You dismissed legitimate concerns by limiting them solely to taking a picture while disregarding implications of behaviour and you label women who agree it is a problem as socially/emotionally dysfunctional and you are offended because you got taken out of context supposedly?

Drama much?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

35 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Juliann, you trot your little self back up to my comments and THEN READ THEM!!!!  You have taken every single thing I said totally out of context and I resent it.  The man that asked for such a picture was a stupid idiot.  My WIFE AND DAUGHTER know how to respond to inappropriate requests.  

Frankly, you don't have a friggin clue what I know, what I think, or anything else about me.  Because YOU HAVE MADE ASSUMPTIONS out of your own PROJECTIONS of what you think a man thinks.  Get a grip, READ FIRST and then comment.  

Disgusting display of everything I hate about closed-minded feminists. 

Uh huh. And if you think your wife and daughter can magically control every man who wants something and only needs to take it, well, that is worrisome.

[Calm]

"you trot your little self"

Were you trying to be patronizing?

Juliann is a grown woman with grandchildren, with a long professional career, lifelong involvement in the Church as teacher and leader, founder of FairMormon...but you think telling her to "trot her little self" is appropriate language.

If I told you "No! It is not the way to speak to an intelligent adult",will you stop and reconsider and pull back or just assume we are wrong, get more offended and if not now, can we expect something later that demonstrates your dissatisfaction with your treatment?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

"It will keep them off the radar of jerks and clearly define their desires to others, including men."

And yet your daughter carries a gun when a forceful "No" is sufficient in your eyes.

[Rain]

In my last ward a Sunday School teacher got up and said he wouldn't use the microphone because his voice was loud. Then he asked if everyone could hear him. I personally knew people who had talked about not being able to hear both in and out of that ward. I also knew that many people hate to call attention to themselves. So knowing this and knowing that it was entirely possible that the people didn't even hear him ask, I asked asked him to use the microphone.

He raised his voice, treated me like I didn't know anything and denied my request. Yes, like anyone who doesn't want to call attention to themselves would speak up now.

The next week, without me saying anything, he addressed the subject again, making fun of my request. 

I was so angry. In this church where we talk about helping your fellow men, it was such a simple thing to do. 

No one else spoke up. We are so afraid about losing the Spirit that we are afraid it would be unkind and unforgiving to stand up to this kind of behavior and still keep the Spirit.

It wasn't the last time I stood up for someone else in church and was ridiculed by the person who I requested to stop.

It would be awesome if everyone felt they could just say no, but we all come from different places. We all have those places of pain inside that makes us act in certain ways or not act at all. 

It's interesting to me that the Savior didn't always stand up for himself,  but wasn't afraid to step in for others, not blaming them for the behavior of others. Without a full understanding you might even get the idea that he taught by example not to stand up for yourself. What most people miss is that any time he did this he was not the weak one. He was the most powerful there. He understood his capabilities and he understood his mission. We often talk about being like the Savior, but we are not him so situations will apply to us differently.

That is why I will stand up for others who won't automatically say no. It is why I stand for myself.  When I stand for someone they can lean on me till they feel stong enough to say no on their own - which for some may never happen in this life.  

I'm curious with this. What is the ratio of time (in general) we spend on teaching people to stand up or fight for ourselves and the time we spend telling those causing the harm that they need to stop? I wonder if anyone has done a study on that or if it could even be done.

[Storm Rider]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

"Two women supported your comment, which I assume means that they agree that this type of response is acceptable for a woman.  If this is actually the case there is no hope for these women to be in public around men whether they are crazy idiots or not.  More importantly, they need to not leave the house until they can quickly, easily respond truthfully to requests from others, mostly men.  This absolutely includes saying forcefully , "NO".  It will keep them off the radar of jerks and clearly define their desires to others, including men."

Yeah, because stalkers are so well known for moving on as soon as their target tells them "No!"

This is a helpful comment.  Thank you for participating.  I learned a lot. 

 

[Storm Rider]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

You dismissed legitimate concerns by limiting them solely to taking a picture while disregarding implications of behaviour and you label women who agree it is a problem as socially/emotionally dysfunctional and you are offended because you got taken out of context supposedly?

Drama much?

Another helpful comment, but not really applicable to the situation.  The post was about a whacko man that asked to take a picture of someone's legs.  It was not, shocking I know, about the entire subject of sexual harassement. If you would read her post she asked a question about this specific issue.  

No, drama not much, but I do stick to the topic.  I do not jump from a specific question on a micro level to a macro issue and then blame stupid men for actually discussing the topic.  

You remember that respect comment you made to me; back at you.  There is none between us.

[Storm Rider]

10 hours ago, juliann said:

Uh huh. And if you think your wife and daughter can magically control every man who wants something and only needs to take it, well, that is worrisome.

Yeah, let's jump off the logic train into sheer silliness.  CFR, this is real and you must respond given the Board's rules, where exactly did I say my wife and daughter can "magically control every man".  If you cannot support your comment retract it.  

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

In my last ward a Sunday School teacher got up and said he wouldn't use the microphone because his voice was loud. Then he asked if everyone could hear him. I personally knew people who had talked about not being able to hear both in and out of that ward. I also knew that many people hate to call attention to themselves. So knowing this and knowing that it was entirely possible that the people didn't even hear him ask, I asked asked him to use the microphone.

He raised his voice, treated me like I didn't know anything and denied my request. Yes, like anyone who doesn't want to call attention to themselves would speak up now.

The next week, without me saying anything, he addressed the subject again, making fun of my request. 

I was so angry. In this church where we talk about helping your fellow men, it was such a simple thing to do. 

No one else spoke up. We are so afraid about losing the Spirit that we are afraid it would be unkind and unforgiving to stand up to this kind of behavior and still keep the Spirit.

It wasn't the last time I stood up for someone else in church and was ridiculed by the person who I requested to stop.

It would be awesome if everyone felt they could just say no, but we all come from different places. We all have those places of pain inside that makes us act in certain ways or not act at all. 

It's interesting to me that the Savior didn't always stand up for himself,  but wasn't afraid to step in for others, not blaming them for the behavior of others. Without a full understanding you might even get the idea that he taught by example not to stand up for yourself. What most people miss is that any time he did this he was not the weak one. He was the most powerful there. He understood his capabilities and he understood his mission. We often talk about being like the Savior, but we are not him so situations will apply to us differently.

That is why I will stand up for others who won't automatically say no. It is why I stand for myself.  When I stand for someone they can lean on me till they feel stong enough to say no on their own - which for some may never happen in this life.  

I'm curious with this. What is the ratio of time (in general) we spend on teaching people to stand up or fight for ourselves and the time we spend telling those causing the harm that they need to stop? I wonder if anyone has done a study on that or if it could even be done.

We have a sister who is hard of hearing.  Her health has begun to fail and hearing is the least of her concerns.  This past Sunday she mentioned that it would be helpful if our Gospel Doctrine teachers would use a microphone.  In response, the other teacher suggested we move to the stage so people would be closer together and I used the microphone. It is still a problem, given the chapel is so large that voices from comments made are lost and she does not hear them well, but she at least can hear the teacher speak.  

Sorry, I don't know of a study on that topic, but I am sure we have others that might be more aware of such studies. 

Rain, thank you for standing up for those who were not comfortable speaking for themselves.  I don't understand the response of the teacher, but I would encourage you to talk to the Sunday School President and let him know what has happened and your concerns.  Humans will often misunderstand their own abilities and think they can do something that they might have been able to do in their younger days, but can no longer do at present. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Storm Rider