Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

1 Nephi 21:16


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

...WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT IS DWELLING IN EACH OF US

....you left out that part, mfbukowski.

What we often refer to as "our own testimony" should more precisely be referred to as the word of God to each of us, personally, when God tells us what he thinks and how he feels about something.

@theplains may not have understood what you meant and he may not have received a testimony from the Holy Spirit aka the word of God to tell him that, either.

No, the word of God to us starts with God, otherwise it may be only our own idea or what Satan has told us.

Precision when using words is important otherwise someone might get the wrong idea from someone's words,

God even speaks to sinners. If he did not we would all be in trouble.

No conditions.

He will answer your prayer.

Yes as our righteousness increases, it becomes easier to feel the Spirit, but you have to experience that for yourself 

It's the only way we have to even know if he exists much less that he can communicate with us.

Why go through the effort of repenting just to find out if he exists. Clearly he has to be available to all.

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

God even speaks to sinners. If he did not we would all be in trouble.

No conditions.

He will answer your prayer.

Yes as our righteousness increases, it becomes easier to feel the Spirit, but you have to experience that for yourself 

It's the only way we have to even know if he exists much less that he can communicate with us.

Why go through the effort of repenting just to find out if he exists. Clearly he has to be available to all.

All true, all this, so of course I agree with all of this.  I was just trying to make it more clear that God is speaking to us and that the thoughts in our head/mind when God is speaking to us are as good as scripture gets only when God is actually speaking/communicating to us through the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise the thoughts in our head/mind would be from some other source.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

All true, all this, so of course I agree with all of this.  I was just trying to make it more clear that God is speaking to us and that the thoughts in our head/mind when God is speaking to us are as good as scripture gets only when God is actually speaking/communicating to us through the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise the thoughts in our head/mind would be from some other source.

What you are not understanding is that that last part negates all you have said.

Either it is from God or not from God or something in between.

Saying it is the word of God only when it is the word of God is a tautology. It says nothing. It doesn't solve the problem.

It means we cannot trust what comes into our heads.

And it is clear that non-members can hear the word of God or else they would not to join the church.

It is clear that all Sinners Like Us can hear the word of God. That was my original point.

When you hear it you know it or you don't.  If you don't believe it's possible you never will.

That is the first step.

When I first heard that I did not believe. I pondered it and pondered it and finally tried praying for myself and found out that it was true.

But telling someone it is word of God only when it is the word of God doesn't help.

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What you are not understanding is that that last part negates all you have said.

No it doesn't.  You are trying to imply that it does, but it really doesn't.

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Either it is from God or not from God or something in between.

There is no in between.  Either it is from God or it is not.

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Saying it is the word of God only when it is the word of God is a tautology. It says nothing. It doesn't solve the problem.

It says it is only when it is.  The thought you have in your mind at this moment, for example, is either from God or it isn't.

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It means we cannot trust what comes into our heads.

Does that mean you never actually do trust any thought that comes into your head/mind?  Or that you trust every thought that does?

You have an opportunity right now to explain how this works.  How the just manage to live by faith from God.  And so far you are blowing that opportunity big time.

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And it is clear that non-members can hear the word of God or else they would not to join the church.

You left out a word, looks like. I think that word is want. Did I get the right idea?  Did I pick the right word?  Did God give me a clue, ya think, or did I come up with that word all on my own? I'm going to guess it is close enough. But I am not as sure of that idea right now as I sometimes am when I receive revelation from God.

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is clear that all Sinners Like Us can hear the word of God. That was my original point.

Okay.  I agree that they can, too.  But not that they always do.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

No it doesn't.  You are trying to imply that it does, but it really doesn't.

There is no in between.  Either it is from God or it is not.

It says it is only when it is.  The thought you have in your mind at this moment, for example, is either from God or it isn't.

Does that mean you never actually do trust any thought that comes into your head/mind?  Or that you trust every thought that does?

You have an opportunity right now to explain how this works.  How the just manage to live by faith from God.  And so far you are blowing that opportunity big time.

You left out a word, looks like. I think that word is want. Did I get the right idea?  Did I pick the right word?  Did God give me a clue, ya think, or did I come up with that word all on my own? I'm going to guess it is close enough. But I am not as sure of that idea right now as I sometimes am when I receive revelation from God.

Okay.  I agree that they can, too.  But not that they always do.

Were it not you, I would not answer.

The issue is one of epistemology, or how we identify and interpret what is from God.

You don't seem to recognize that problem. You tacitly raise the question but provide no solutions

What you took to be a missing word was in fact the extra word" to."   It was a typo caused by my dictating the comment.

If the thought clarifies and leads us toward the good it is from God if it does not then it is something else.

If it confuses and leads away from the good it is not from God.

God's word is simple and clear as a bell.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You left out a word, looks like. I think that word is want. Did I get the right idea?  Did I pick the right word?  Did God give me a clue, ya think, or did I come up with that word all on my own?

Want works fine

What you took to be a missing word was in fact the extra word" to."   It was a typo caused by my dictating the comment.

 it was supposed to be:

"And it is clear that non-members can hear the word of God or else they would not join the church."

 

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Were it not you, I would not answer.

I will take that as a compliment and thank you for that.

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The issue is one of epistemology, or how we identify and interpret what is from God.

Partly, and the issue is also one of whether or not the thought actually came to us from God either directly or indirectly through one of God's authorized messengers.

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You don't seem to recognize that problem. You tacitly raise the question but provide no solutions.

The solution is to ask God whether or not the thought is true or has any truth in it.  And later when God tells you (or any other person directly) what is true, then you (or that other person) will feel assured with God's answer.

The key here is that the process must include personal revelation from God to assure someone of what is true, rather than someone getting any thought and then jumping to an assumption that every thought they get is from God.

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What you took to be a missing word was in fact the extra word" to."   It was a typo caused by my dictating the comment.

Okay, as I said, I wasn't so sure about that.  Good thing I didn't jump to an assumption and then lock on to that assumption as the truth, I think.

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If the thought clarifies and leads us toward the good it is from God if it does not then it is something else.

If it confuses and leads away from the good it is not from God.

Now we're getting into what someone may consider to be good and whether or not it is good just because they think it is good.  Not everything people think is good is good, just as not everything people think is from God is from God.

So how do you propose we find out for sure whether or not something is good or from God?  I propose we ask God and then accept what he tells us.  Any opposed?

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

God's word is simple and clear as a bell.

Yes, it is isn't it, but Satan's word and even our own word can sometimes be simple and clear as a bell to us, too.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So how do you propose we find out for sure whether or not something is good or from God?  I propose we ask God and then accept what he tells us.  Any opposed?

That's circular reasoning

All you are doing is asking whoever's is out there twice

Imagine someone calling from your bank, and you are not sure it is really from your bank.  Then you ask them if they are really from your bank and they say yes.

Do you now trust them that they really are from your bank?

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Satan's word...can sometimes be simple and clear as a bell to us, too.

I don't find this to be true.  I find that following the adversary brings confusion and unclarity of purpose.  Promptings from the Holy Ghost prove to be enlightening and show me what the next steps on the path are.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I don't find this to be true.  I find that following the adversary brings confusion and unclarity of purpose.  Promptings from the Holy Ghost prove to be enlightening and show me what the next steps on the path are.

 

On 9/1/2020 at 12:50 PM, mfbukowski said:

If the thought clarifies and leads us toward the good it is from God if it does not then it is something else.

If it confuses and leads away from the good it is not from God.

Hmmm.  I think we have some agreement here, not surprisingly!  ;)

 

Link to comment
21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's circular reasoning

All you are doing is asking whoever's is out there twice

Imagine someone calling from your bank, and you are not sure it is really from your bank.  Then you ask them if they are really from your bank and they say yes.

Do you now trust them that they really are from your bank?

No, what I proposed would be equivalent to you calling your bank to verify that they had called you while you ask your bank representative what message, if any, they had or have for you, rather than you just taking someone's word when they call that they are affiliated with your bank. 

People claim to speak for God pretty much on a regular basis and if you just take their own word, without checking with God for yourself at the source, you're setting yourself up to be scammed.

19 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't find this to be true. [that Satan's word...can sometimes be simple and clear as a bell to us, too]. I find that following the adversary brings confusion and unclarity of purpose.  Promptings from the Holy Ghost prove to be enlightening and show me what the next steps on the path are.

If you wanted to be evil there is nobody better to learn from than Satan.  And many people consider evil to be good and even much better than what some other people call good. And he can be clear and on point too, without causing you to be confused, even if other people told you that they think you were confused.  It's all about who you are actually listening to and what you personally consider to be good.  Satan also calls himself God, as our Father does, so we need to take care to ensure that we are actually hearing from God rather than some impostor.

Link to comment
  • 2 months later...
On 9/1/2020 at 10:41 AM, Ahab said:

All true, all this, so of course I agree with all of this.  I was just trying to make it more clear that God is speaking to us and that the thoughts in our head/mind when God is speaking to us are as good as scripture gets only when God is actually speaking/communicating to us through the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise the thoughts in our head/mind would be from some other source.

NOTHING compares with scripture. Scriptures are the revelation of God through HIS appointed prophets and Apostles for ALL times to stand forever. Our thoughts, be it inspired by the Spirit is ONLY a very personal prompting to act in a very specific direction in time and space under a very unique and specific circumstance. It is NOT applicable to everyone or even as an iteration for yourself on a situation that may look (on the surface) as similar. 

And yes, we must repent if we hope to call on the Spirit of God and Him coming to our aid. For God will save us from our sins but not IN our sins.

Link to comment
15 hours ago, Islander said:

NOTHING compares with scripture. Scriptures are the revelation of God through HIS appointed prophets and Apostles for ALL times to stand forever. Our thoughts, be it inspired by the Spirit is ONLY a very personal prompting to act in a very specific direction in time and space under a very unique and specific circumstance. It is NOT applicable to everyone or even as an iteration for yourself on a situation that may look (on the surface) as similar. 

And yes, we must repent if we hope to call on the Spirit of God and Him coming to our aid. For God will save us from our sins but not IN our sins.

Scripture is that which is/was/will be written when guided by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost.  Nothing more and nothing less.  

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Ahab said:

Scripture is that which is/was/will be written when guided by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost.  Nothing more and nothing less.  

Not quite. You are advocating for an open canon. If so, them millions of people would be "writing scripture" every day. Scripture is SCRIPTURE as we have it today in the Bible and the BoM/PGP/D&C. The rest is application for every day living. Inspiration that is personal, unique and non-repeatable to each person in a specific moment in time. That can NOT be equated to the text of scripture. Your position is expansive and poetic but theologically not sound.

Link to comment
11 hours ago, Islander said:

Not quite. You are advocating for an open canon. If so, them millions of people would be "writing scripture" every day. Scripture is SCRIPTURE as we have it today in the Bible and the BoM/PGP/D&C. The rest is application for every day living. Inspiration that is personal, unique and non-repeatable to each person in a specific moment in time. That can NOT be equated to the text of scripture. Your position is expansive and poetic but theologically not sound.

The scriptures themselves contain a more expansive definition of what constitutes scripture, as defined by the Lord:

1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the aeverlasting gospel, by the bSpirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the ccongregations of the wicked, in their dsynagogues, reasoning with and eexpounding all scriptures unto them.

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—

3 And this is the aensample unto them, that they shall bspeak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the aHoly Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the bpower of God unto salvation.

(D&C 68)

While you are correct in saying that the four standard works are "scripture" to the church, Ahab is also correct when he says scripture is what is received by personal revelation, although with the caveat that it is only applicable to that individual.  Indeed, it is commonly taught that a patriarchal blessing is scripture to that individual.

As to an open cannon, the church teaches that latter day prophets and apostles continue to receive revelation and that this revelation may be added to the official cannon:

"Although the decisions were made in the past as to which writings are authoritative, that does not mean that the canon of scripture is complete and that no more can be added. True prophets and apostles will continue to receive new revelation, and from time to time the legal authorities of the Church will see fit to formally add to the collection of scripture."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/canon?lang=eng

Link to comment
11 hours ago, Islander said:

Not quite. You are advocating for an open canon. If so, them millions of people would be "writing scripture" every day. Scripture is SCRIPTURE as we have it today in the Bible and the BoM/PGP/D&C. The rest is application for every day living. Inspiration that is personal, unique and non-repeatable to each person in a specific moment in time. That can NOT be equated to the text of scripture. Your position is expansive and poetic but theologically not sound.

It seems that you do understand my perspective even though you do not agree with it.  Yes, scripture is written every day by millions if not billions of people as they write what they are inspired to write when moved by the power of the Holy Ghost.  Scripture is not limited to what is canonized or contained only in the standard works of the Church.  All that is necessary for anyone to be enabled to write scripture is the power and influence of the Holy Ghost.

You can disagree as much as you want to but your disagreement has no effect whatsoever on what scripture actually is.

Link to comment
11 hours ago, Ahab said:

It seems that you do understand my perspective even though you do not agree with it.  Yes, scripture is written every day by millions if not billions of people as they write what they are inspired to write when moved by the power of the Holy Ghost.  Scripture is not limited to what is canonized or contained only in the standard works of the Church.  All that is necessary for anyone to be enabled to write scripture is the power and influence of the Holy Ghost.

You can disagree as much as you want to but your disagreement has no effect whatsoever on what scripture actually is.

Like I said, you are spiritualizing and approaching the subject from an almost poetic frame of reference. But, it is just bad theology. 

Link to comment
14 hours ago, Islander said:

Like I said, you are spiritualizing and approaching the subject from an almost poetic frame of reference. But, it is just bad theology. 

No, it is simple logic.  What makes some writing "scripture" is the simple fact that the writing was influenced by the power of the Holy Ghost.  That's it.  It doesn't matter one bit if the writing was written by someone who was a simple farm boy or a middle aged fisherman.  Or whether that person was ordained to the office of an apostle or elder or high priest.  All it takes is the power and influence of the Holy Ghost and someone to write what the Holy Ghost is influencing someone to write.  And by the power of the Holy Ghost we, meaning everybody, can know the truth of all things.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...