1 Nephi 21:16

[Rain]

This is also in Isaiah.

"Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."

I have been looking and finding lots of opinions on what "walls continually before me" means (we build walls and Christ is waiting for us to take them down etc) , but is there anything about where it actually come from? Something back in Isaiah's time of how he came to use the expression?

Edited January 2, 2018 by Rain

[JAHS]

I have heard it described as the walls of Jerusalem are ever present in the consciousness of those who dwell in the city.
In the same way, an awareness of Israel's concerns and worries are ever present with the Lord, keeping them from being what they want to be.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Lord is promising not to forget Jerusalem and his people -- he has tattooed them on his hands, and he can see the walls of the city in his mind's eye.  Note the Lord's formal oath in 21:18 (Isa 49:18).  A good scholarly study Bible could be of some help, such as the Oxford Annotated Study Bible, NRSV, revised (OUP, 1991).

Edited January 6, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Moroni Spagnola]

Regular Christians believe Jeremiah 1:5 believes God knows our future. They don't believe that scripture is evidence that we lived with God in heaven. The regular Christians are correct to say God knows our future; however, the narrow it down to one future and we can't control what our future will become.

Our God is more powerful than that. My God knows a million different possible versions of myself according to our choices. There is a million paths to take. If we want to become God's version of ourselves we must pray diligently and be guided by his hands. We must build up the walls of God to keep us on His path. We need to block other paths with spiritual walls and be lead by God's hand.

If we follow God's will instead of our own will, than we will become the best version of ourselves, God's version of ourselves, graven on the palms of His hands. 

[gav]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:36 PM, Rain said:

"Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."

City walls were defences and protection to which the surrounding population fled in times of trouble. The nail prints in Christ palms are the signs and tokens of his atoning sacrifice which he retains even after his resurrection. Gethsemane and the cross enable the "bowels of His mercy" and His advocacy with justice. The atonement not only enables us to be "at one" but the word is also derived from words meaning to embrace, clothe, cover, hide, or protect. Walls do just that for a people and to have these walls continually before Him is to ensure they are well maintained, sturdy, watched and guarded. Therefore these defences are unsusceptible to breach of any kind while He is on guard. He has our backs and never sleeps on his guard post.

Edited August 9, 2020 by gav

[bluebell]

Like others have said, I have been told that it is in reference to the walls of jerusalem and what they mean symbolically.

[Kenngo1969]

Hey!  What's that smell?

Oh.

It's ... this thread.

It's ... quite stinky!

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hey!  What's that smell?

Oh.

It's ... this thread.

It's ... quite stinky!

?

[Kenngo1969]

24 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hey!  What's that smell?

Oh.

It's ... this thread.

It's ... quite stinky!

 

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

?

Look at the date of the initial post.

 

On 1/1/2018 at 9:36 AM, Rain said:

This is also in Isaiah.

"Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."

I have been looking and finding lots of opinions on what "walls continually before me" means (we build walls and Christ is waiting for us to take them down etc) , but is there anything about where it actually come from? Something back in Isaiah's time of how he came to use the expression?

 

[gav]

On 1/1/2018 at 9:06 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Note the Lord's formal oath in 21:18 (Isa 49:18). 

And the fulfilment of that oath is described in Revelation 19:7-8

[gav]

6 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Look at the date of the initial post.

 

 

Seems there is a resurrection after all... or was this one translated?

 

[OGHoosier]

39 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Look at the date of the initial post.

 

 

The stench of a decomposing thread, long dead. 

I don't find it that offensive actually. Good thoughts to be had. 

[Rain]

I'd forgotten all about this post.  I'm good with the resurrection and appreciate the responses.  🙂

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Moroni Spagnola said:

Regular Christians believe Jeremiah 1:5 believes God knows our future. They don't believe that scripture is evidence that we lived with God in heaven. .................................

While it is true that the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 553 AD) declared Origen's thought on human pre-existence anathema, early Christianity certainly taught the pre-mortal existence of souls, and this was a legacy of both the Old and New Testaments:

Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, “Remember your creator in the days of your youth … before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 8: 58, “Before Abraham was, I am.” (Exodus 3:14)

John 16:28, “I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

John 17:18, “As you sent me into the world, I sent them into the world.”

II Corianthians 5:1, “Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling.”

Ephesians 1:4, “He chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.”

Philemon 2:7,‘He made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”

[JamesBYoung]

Metaphorically the walls of Jerusalem are always before and on the Lord's mind.

 

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, gav said:

City walls were defences and protection to which the surrounding population fled in times of trouble. The nail prints in Christ palms are the signs and tokens of his atoning sacrifice which he retains even after his resurrection. Gethsemane and the cross enable the "bowels of His mercy" and His advocacy with justice. The atonement not only enables us to be "at one" but the word is also derived from words meaning to embrace, clothe, cover, hide, or protect. Walls do just that for a people and to have these walls continually before Him is to ensure they are well maintained, sturdy, watched and guarded. Therefore these defences are unsusceptible to breach of any kind while He is on guard. He has our backs and never sleeps on his guard post.

I like that analogy.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, gav said:

Seems there is a resurrection after all... or was this one translated?

 

  This is the usual indicator of a thread raised from the dead. 

[Moroni Spagnola]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

  This is the usual indicator of a thread raised from the dead.

I raised the dead lol jk

[mfbukowski]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:26 PM, Moroni Spagnola said:

I raised the dead lol jk

Good for you!

There is nothing wrong with reviving an old thread, and no "usual indicator" for doing so.

That says that there is nothing more to learn from an old thread.

Nonsense.

The scriptures are the oldest threads we have around here, and we talk about them all the time. 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 8/13/2020 at 1:45 PM, mfbukowski said:

The scriptures are the oldest threads we have around here, and we talk about them all the time. 

What do you think of this passage in Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith?

Pages 198-199 (chapter 16).

"Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, 'Brother Brigham, I want you to take 
the stand and tell us your views with regard to the [living] oracles and the written word of 
God.' Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book 
of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down 
before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God 
from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,'

said he, 'when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do 
not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the 
Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the 
writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said 
to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the 
truth.' "

Despite what Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said, I believe the words we hear from the scriptures 
are as relevant and even more important than the words we hear in our churches today.

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, theplains said:

What do you think of this passage in Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith?

Pages 198-199 (chapter 16).

"Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, 'Brother Brigham, I want you to take 
the stand and tell us your views with regard to the [living] oracles and the written word of 
God.' Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book 
of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down 
before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God 
from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,'

said he, 'when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do 
not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the 
Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the 
writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said 
to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the 
truth.' "

Despite what Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said, I believe the words we hear from the scriptures 
are as relevant and even more important than the words we hear in our churches today.

Yeah, but....

The best oracle there is, is inside each of US.

We would not believe in the scriptures if it were not for our own testimony that they are the word of God.

So it all starts with each of us, and has to end there.   If the spirit has not confirmed to you that the "Bible is True" it is a useless pile of paper.   And of course that goes for all the standard works as well.

[The Nehor]

On 8/13/2020 at 12:45 PM, mfbukowski said:

The scriptures are the oldest threads we have around here, and we talk about them all the time. 

I think comparing the words I post to scripture probably constitutes blasphemy on some level.

[pogi]

On 1/1/2018 at 9:36 AM, Rain said:

This is also in Isaiah.

"Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."

I have been looking and finding lots of opinions on what "walls continually before me" means (we build walls and Christ is waiting for us to take them down etc) , but is there anything about where it actually come from? Something back in Isaiah's time of how he came to use the expression?

One of my favorite classes in school was ceramics.  Turning and sculpting pottery on the potters wheel, by using the palms of my hands to form and smooth the walls of a bowl or pot of clay, was therapeutic. This is the imagery that comes to my mind when I read this verse.  I think it is a play on the imagery that we are clay vessels whose walls were created by the hand of the Lord.  I think this imagery plays a triple meaning:  1) that we were created (graven) by his hands (he knows us intimately). 2) that we are upheld by his hand.  A couple chapter before, in Isaiah 41, the Lord said "I will uphold you with my righteous right hand."  In that same chapter he later says " “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.”  I think of that great classic song "he has the whole world in his hands..."  3) I think this imagery shows his ownership of Zion (verse 14 makes it clear he is speaking of Zion)..  As we see in John 10, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

I think this imagery is an expansion of the imagery given in the previous verse where the Lord compares his relationship with Zion to that of a mother with her nursing child.   That same image portrays those same 3 points 1) we are his creation, 2) nurturing/guidance/empowerment, and 3) ownership, as a nursing infant belongs to its mother.

"thy walls are continually before me", simply suggests that we, like a vessel of clay, are in his hands.  It suggests that he knows us intimately and that we are always on his mind. He cherishes us so much that he will never put us down.    

Edited August 31, 2020 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think comparing the words I post to scripture probably constitutes blasphemy on some level.

Well of course that is true for YOU, as for the rest of us....

It's probably worse. 😱👹😉

[Ahab]

On 8/29/2020 at 12:33 PM, mfbukowski said:

Yeah, but....

The best oracle there is, is inside each of US.

...WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT IS DWELLING IN EACH OF US

....you left out that part, mfbukowski.

On 8/29/2020 at 12:33 PM, mfbukowski said:

We would not believe in the scriptures if it were not for our own testimony that they are the word of God.

What we often refer to as "our own testimony" should more precisely be referred to as the word of God to each of us, personally, when God tells us what he thinks and how he feels about something.

@theplains may not have understood what you meant and he may not have received a testimony from the Holy Spirit aka the word of God to tell him that, either.

On 8/29/2020 at 12:33 PM, mfbukowski said:

So it all starts with each of us, and has to end there.   If the spirit has not confirmed to you that the "Bible is True" it is a useless pile of paper.   And of course that goes for all the standard works as well.

No, the word of God to us starts with God, otherwise it may be only our own idea or what Satan has told us.

Precision when using words is important otherwise someone might get the wrong idea from someone's words,