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Reconciling the Lucy Walker story


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28 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Yes you are correct,  because she was a slave, she was "GIVEN" to Abraham. 

Does that change the morality of it from a presentist perspective?  If anything, it makes it worse...God condones slaves?

She was the maidservant, or slave of Sarah, not Abraham.  Husbands were not supposed to sleep with their wives maidservants, even back then. 

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5 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure

That makes no sense

If I can take a stab at what you're saying you don't think Abraham was a real person

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9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hagar became Sarah's Maid, but when Sarah was not blessed with children, she persuaded Abraham to take Hagar as his second wife.

That is very different than what took place with Emma and Lucy Walker.  Also, Abraham was not commanded by God to live polygamy.

Edited by JulieM
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23 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure

Then you must reject the canonized D&C 138 and possibly other scripture too.

Edited by JLHPROF
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8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That is very different than what took place with Emma and Lucy Walker.  Also, Abraham was not commanded by God to live polygamy.

According to D&C 132, yes, he was.

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

According to D&C 132, yes, he was.

Yes, according to Joseph’s revelation, he was.

There’s no record of that in the Bible though.  Only what came from Joseph (as he understood it from God).  That could be awfully convenient for him, I think.

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1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Yes, according to Joseph’s revelation, he was.

There’s no record of that in the Bible though.  Only what came from Joseph (as he understood it from God).  That could be awfully convenient for him, I think.

wasn't Abraham married to Sarah, Hagar and keturah?

Edited by Duncan
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18 minutes ago, pogi said:

She was the maidservant, or slave of Sarah, not Abraham.  Husbands were not supposed to sleep with their wives maidservants, even back then. 

Are you ok that Joseph slept with Emma’s young maids?  I know he called them his wives, so are you ok with him sleeping with teenagers without his wife’s consent or knowledge?

 

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Just now, JulieM said:

Yes, according to Joseph’s revelation, he was.

There’s no record of that in the Bible though.  Only what came from Joseph (as he understood it from God).  That could be awfully convenient for him, I think.

Yes, I am sure that is what many think.
Either I believe Joseph was God's mouthpiece or I don't.  Playing buffet with his revelations isn't an option as far as I'm concerned.
If polygamy was wrong I would be forced to reject every revelation given after Joseph became an adulterer.  That would include the entirety of the endowment and eternal families.
And there would be little point in being a member of the Church.  I agree with Orson on this one.

Fortunately I do believe Joseph and his revelations.

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5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But not commanded by God to marry them.  There’s no record of any commandment from God.  

how do you read Genesis 16? in terms of Hagar, Sarah had died when Keturah came onto the scene but not much is known about her or the situation

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Joseph and Emma introduced Lucy as their “daughter” to others.  No one finds this entire episode disturbing?  What if you heard of someone doing this now?  I’m not sure how anyone can believe this was sanctioned by God.

Edited by JulieM
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2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how do you read Genesis 16? in terms of Hagar, Sarah had died when Keturah came onto the scene but not much is known about her or the situation

There’s no record of his marriage to Hagar being a commandment from God.  Sarah gave him Hagar to have children.  That’s very different than what Joseph was doing without Emma knowing.

Edited by JulieM
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Just now, JulieM said:

There’s no record of his marriage to Hagar being a commandment from God.  Sarah gave him Hagar to have children.

an angel of the Lord though? commanded her to go back to Abraham, if it was sanctioned by God why would he send an Angel to tell her that?

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7 hours ago, DBMormon said:

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

I find it interesting that "importance" to you somehow equates to "controversial". I hope you do not take that tact with everything in your life or your life is going to suck.

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2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

an angel of the Lord though? commanded her to go back to Abraham, if it was sanctioned by God why would he send an Angel to tell her that?

Joseph claimed that Abraham was commanded (to live polygamy).  There’s no record of God commanding Abraham to practice polygamy.  

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Just now, JulieM said:

Joseph claimed that Abraham was commanded (to live polygamy).  There’s no record of God commanding Abraham to practice polygamy.  

so the angel of the Lord be danged?? what do you make of that? if it wasn't approved of God why would he send an angle to go back to already married Abraham if he didn't approve of it?

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10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

so the angel of the Lord be danged?? what do you make of that? if it wasn't approved of God why would he send an angle to go back to already married Abraham if he didn't approve of it?

She was to return to Sarah and Abraham (after Hagar had already conceived Abraham’s child).  Sarah had already given her to Abraham for children to be born to him.  They didn’t need to marry and I doubt there was any type of ceremony.  Maybe common law or ownership.  Either way, there’s no record of what Joseph claims about Abraham being commanded by God to live polygamy.

Edited by JulieM
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21 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Joseph and Emma introduced Lucy as their “daughter” to others.  No one finds this entire episode disturbing.  What if you heard of someone doing this now?  I’m not sure how anyone can believe this was sanctioned by God.

And Abraham introduced Sarah as his sister (which she almost was) when she was in fact his wife.

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Just now, JulieM said:

She was to return to Sarah.  Sarah was giving her to Abraham for children to be born to him.  They didn’t need to marry and I doubt there was any type of ceremony.  Maybe common law or ownership.  Either way, there’s no record of what Joseph claims about Abraham being commanded by God to live polygamy.

if it wasn't approved of God why would he send an angel to tell her to return? Does God lie? This all came before Isaac, of whom God knew would come onto the scene and re establish the Abrahamic Covenant, so why would God allow Hagar to be given to Abraham? The record you refer to is in DC 132, which actually exists

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7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if it wasn't approved of God why would he send an angel to tell her to return?

This is an interesting point I've not thought of.
By sending an angel to Hagar to return to her polygamous relationship isn't God commanding polygamy continue?

  • Genesis 16:3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
    9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
    10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

That seems like a command to return to a polygamous relationship to me.
And since Hagar was able to have children that would make her at least, what, about 4 decades younger than 86 year old Abraham?

Edited by JLHPROF
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17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And Abraham introduced Sarah as his sister (which she almost was) when she was in fact his wife.

Ok.  Not really the same, IMO, as Joseph marrying a girl that he AND his wife introduced as their daughter and who lived in their home.

Edited by JulieM
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8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is an interesting point I've not thought of.
By sending an angel to Hagar to return to her polygamous relationship isn't God commanding polygamy continue?

  • Genesis 16:3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
    9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
    10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

That seems like a command to return to a polygamous relationship to me.

Or a commandment to return and give him the child she was carrying.  Polygamy was not mentioned was it?  Did she have to stay and be his wife after she gave him the child?  

Abraham still was not commanded to live polygamy as Joseph claimed.

(That was recorded in the Bible.)

Edited by JulieM
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