BYU rape case defendant aquitted

[bsjkki]

I’ve followed this case that started the BYU honor code issues closely. The defendant was aquitted. http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/19/utah-man-acquitted-of-raping-byu-student/comments/#disqus_thread

Besides a news article 2 weeks ago and the verdict story today...there was not a day to day trial recap. Is there a way to read the trial transcripts?

[strappinglad]

As always , the comments section is enlightening. And we here think we get off track and down a rabbit hole !!

[bsjkki]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/19/two-years-of-pure-hell-woman-says-system-failed-her-after-utah-jury-acquits-the-man-she-says-raped-her/comments/#disqus_thread

I wish I could find more factual statements from the trial. But, proving a rape charge beyond a reasonable doubt is very difficult. The process is traumatic. I would like a break down of her inconsistent statements that overcame the evidence of a taped confession but...I believe the jury aquitted based on the evidence.

Regardless...as a parent...I know my daughters rapist/long time predator is still free because date rape/victim trauma/lack of evidence makes any justice through the system impossible. The Harvey Weinstein’s in our high schools roam free.

 

 

[longview]

It was totally pointless to criticize BYU's honor code.  The "victim" (if she should be called that) was sexually active with more than one partner..  This is the type of person that should not be attending the school.  She would have been "better off" enrolling at a "party university."

[bsjkki]

25 minutes ago, longview said:

It was totally pointless to criticize BYU's honor code.  The "victim" (if she should be called that) was sexually active with more than one partner..  This is the type of person that should not be attending the school.  She would have been "better off" enrolling at a "party university."

I disagree...I am very grateful she spoke up and BYU made changes. Her story was a catalyst and the recommended changes...all 24 were adopted based on research that should have been done long before. The honor code office did not act entirely honorably in her case and her honor code violations do not exempt BYU from their own wrong doing in her case and especially not in the many other stories that were told. 

I am still very happy BYU is a ‘safer’ place for students to report sexual assaults.

[longview]

11 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I am still very happy BYU is a ‘safer’ place for students to report sexual assaults.

Is the following change of most importance to you?   What other changes were significant to you?  If you were an administrator in the Honor Code Office, how would you deal with the "rape victim" that is known to be promiscuous?

BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins said only the name of the perpetrator of an assault is passed from the TItle IX office to the Honor Code office.

The Title IX office hosted the Awareness Gallery Visual Representations of Sexual Assault Statistics on April 5 during Sexual Assault Awareness week. (Jesse King)

Otherwise, “Information is never shared between the Honor Code office and the Title IX office,” said Jenkins.  (from http://universe.byu.edu/2017/04/27/byu-title-ix-honor-code-change-sexual-assault-investigations/)

Edited October 20, 2017 by longview

[thesometimesaint]

13 hours ago, longview said:

It was totally pointless to criticize BYU's honor code.  The "victim" (if she should be called that) was sexually active with more than one partner..  This is the type of person that should not be attending the school.  She would have been "better off" enrolling at a "party university."

Quit blaming the victim. Her sexual history is irrelevant to the crime committed against her.

[longview]

28 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Quit blaming the victim. Her sexual history is irrelevant to the crime committed against her.

You are coming out left field and oversimplying.  You are welcome to address the questions in my post immediately before yours.

 

ETA:  I happen to agree with the new process as described by Ms. Jenkins.

Edited October 20, 2017 by longview

[thesometimesaint]

If someone has driven a car before, are they then responsible for someone else deliberately driving a car and hitting them with it?

[Jeanne]

58 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Quit blaming the victim. Her sexual history is irrelevant to the crime committed against her.

Thank you...

[bsjkki]

4 hours ago, longview said:

Is the following change of most importance to you?   What other changes were significant to you?  If you were an administrator in the Honor Code Office, how would you deal with the "rape victim" that is known to be promiscuous?

BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins said only the name of the perpetrator of an assault is passed from the TItle IX office to the Honor Code office.

The Title IX office hosted the Awareness Gallery Visual Representations of Sexual Assault Statistics on April 5 during Sexual Assault Awareness week. (Jesse King)

Otherwise, “Information is never shared between the Honor Code office and the Title IX office,” said Jenkins.  (from http://universe.byu.edu/2017/04/27/byu-title-ix-honor-code-change-sexual-assault-investigations/)

No...that is not the most important change for me personally but I am happy about all the changes. The most important change to me personally, is actually not a change at BYU but that the information gathered was sent to church leadership. I hope this will help all sexual assault victims in the church. "3. Share with officials of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the findings of the advisory council regarding ecclesiastical leaders’ varied responses to sexual-assault reports." I hope more training, better information and understanding will help all victims of sexual assault as they talk with their ecclesiastical leaders. This too...is long overdue. 

How would I deal with the rape victim who was known to be promiscuous? First, I would listen. Second, I would seek trained counseling for her. Third, I would find out if they wish to remain at the University. Forth, I would formulate a plan that would help them stay--including referring them to seek guidance through their Bishop. Together we would sit down and make a plan that is best for them. If only, the goal of the Honor Code office was to find ways to help the students stay and repair their lives and testimonies instead of being focused on punishment and kicking them out of school. 

This is great summation of the BYU recommendations. https://news.byu.edu/sites/default/files/AdvisoryCouncilReport.pdf

"CONCLUSION As we have conducted this study and developed this report, we have been grateful for the cooperation, the openness, and the sincere devotion to helping victims that has been demonstrated by so many members of the campus community. Our hearts ache for those who suffer the devastating psychological, emotional, spiritual, physical, and other wounds inflicted through sexual assault. Our deepest desire is to create an environment that eliminates such situations as much as possible and compassionately supports and guides victims through their recovery process. We have learned much about how our campus responds to sexual misconduct, and we have formulated some key recommendations, outlined above, that we believe will make a significant difference in the safety of our students. In addition, we have three broad recommendations:

1. Although we have gained significant insight into this issue on campus, we have learned that there is much more for us still to learn and that there is much we still do not understand. Our attention to this issue as a campus is heightened now, and we ask that the university remain alert and continue to study and to learn. A campus culture and climate study will be a significant aid to that effort.

2. We began this process with two goals: (a) to learn how we can eliminate sexual misconduct on campus and (b) to discover ways to improve the reporting and investigation process. We have realized that those two goals are in reverse order. We must have better reporting of sexual assault before we can eliminate sexual assault and other forms of sexual misconduct. We ask that the university do what is necessary to encourage and facilitate victims or others in reporting sexual assault and dating/domestic violence.

3. This report is a beginning. This issue is rapidly evolving both here on our campus and in the broader world of higher education. Federal regulations are changing quickly, and both government agencies and education officials are working hard to find the right solutions. The formation of this advisory council indicates that BYU is also working hard to find the right solutions for our campus. As we gain more information about sexual misconduct on campus and more experience responding to it, we strongly urge continual review and attention to improve our processes and efforts. As experts and regulators in the field similarly learn more, gain new perspectives, and develop new strategies, we encourage the university to continue to study and learn from emerging best practices and revised regulations. As an educational community that seeks to follow Jesus Christ, we at this university place the highest emphasis on compassionate attention to the safety and well-being of our students. To succeed in our mission to help young people develop the full range of human potential, we must have an environment that is free of sexual misconduct and that is supportive, loving, and sensitive to the needs of any who have been abused. These priority objectives merit our determined and sustained attention. We must be, as was Jesus Christ, both unflinching in our condemnation of such behavior and compassionate in our care for any affected by sexual assault and dating/domestic violence.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by bsjkki

[BlueDreams]

I'm not surprised it was aquitted. Sorry that it was....but not surprised. Our judicial and police system is simply not well equipped for processing and convicting rape cases. 

 

with luv,

BD

[Darren10]

16 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm not surprised it was aquitted. Sorry that it was....but not surprised. Our judicial and police system is simply not well equipped for processing and convicting rape cases. 

 

with luv,

BD

Isn't that because our judicial system is based on the burden of proof being upon the state? It seems difficult to "prove" rape. This is in general, not necessarily for this case.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Quote

“You said I raped you,” Seidu responds in the recording. “I did, and I want you to forgive me.”

Despite this evidence, which Craig Johnson, deputy Utah County attorney, referred to as the “smoking gun” Seidu was acquitted of all charges after just five hours of jury deliberation.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/orem-man-acquitted-after-being-accused-of-raping-byu-student/article_002945a1-a269-5783-ba31-a67b0fe6883e.html

 

I wonder if this phone call recording was admitted in court? It seems pretty damning.

[BlueDreams]

4 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Isn't that because our judicial system is based on the burden of proof being upon the state? It seems difficult to "prove" rape.

No, not exactly. I would strongly recommend reading the book Missoula to have a picture of what happens with rape cases. They're several problematic areas that lead to rape going uncharged.  

[bsjkki]

Just now, Darren10 said:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/orem-man-acquitted-after-being-accused-of-raping-byu-student/article_002945a1-a269-5783-ba31-a67b0fe6883e.html

 

I wonder if this phone call recording was admitted in court? It seems pretty damning.

It was but inconsistent statements from the accuser overcame this confession. I really would like trial transcripts. Proving rape is difficult and I am surprised her previous sexual encounters and post sexual encounters (different guy) were admissible. Often rape victims don't even say "no" or fight--they just freeze. That makes it really hard to prove rape in court of law. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/23/why-many-rape-victims-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.426e660e031d

[kiwi57]

Ok, I've read the article.

This is a horribly messy case. On the face of it, the acquittal looks wrong, but the newspaper article is, of course, just a tiny snippet of the evidence the jury heard.

The trouble is that this is a case where, no matter the outcome, the newspapers could have had a field day. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some reporters who had an alternative headline ready to go, pending the outcome:

"Black Man Railroaded By White System in Mormon Country."

[longview]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

To succeed in our mission to help young people develop the full range of human potential,

No university, no tutor, no counselor, no teacher, no social engineer, no communist, no one have the ability to reform mortal (carnal) man (woman).  Everyone is different.  All live in a chaotic world full of opposition.  It was her choice to live the lifestyle while not caring about her lack of wisdom and misrepresenting herself to BYU and her bishop, etc.

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

we must have an environment that is free of sexual misconduct and that is supportive, loving, and sensitive to the needs of any who have been abused.

Both Madi Barney and Nasiru Seidu have clay feet.  They got what they wanted from each other and sometimes abused each other.  Both are guilty.  All part of the real world.  Every relationship go through rough patches.  All marriages have problems.  We are here to learn from our choices.  If there was rape, she needed to go directly to the police.  But she has to acknowledge that she put herself into this messy situation.

"Must have an environment that is free of sexual misconduct" sounds incredibly Utopian.  The only way to pull this off is to impose the power of the totalitarian state.  Which just happens to be Lucifer's plan for making everybody equal (and equally miserable).

It is not BYU's job to make Madi into the IDEAL student/citizen.  BYU offers programs and resources but it is Madi that has to commit to being a serious student and to apply herself to compete and plant the seeds and to work at it.  Only she can make something of herself.  The only choice for BYU is to retain the Honor Code and weed out party people.   If she needs help, she must leave the school and get counseling from her bishop and various professionals.

[thesometimesaint]

Considering the record of religions to same could be said about them. We don't expel the sinner. We try to help them to be better people.

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, longview said:

No university, no tutor, no counselor, no teacher, no social engineer, no communist, no one have the ability to reform mortal (carnal) man (woman).  Everyone is different.  All live in a chaotic world full of opposition.  It was her choice to live the lifestyle while not caring about her lack of wisdom and misrepresenting herself to BYU and her bishop, etc.

Both Madi Barney and Nasiru Seidu have clay feet.  They got what they wanted from each other and sometimes abused each other.  Both are guilty.  All part of the real world.  Every relationship go through rough patches.  All marriages have problems.  We are here to learn from our choices.  If there was rape, she needed to go directly to the police.  But she has to acknowledge that she put herself into this messy situation.

"Must have an environment that is free of sexual misconduct" sounds incredibly Utopian.  The only way to pull this off is to impose the power of the totalitarian state.  Which just happens to be Lucifer's plan for making everybody equal (and equally miserable).

It is not BYU's job to make Madi into the IDEAL student/citizen.  BYU offers programs and resources but it is Madi that has to commit to being a serious student and to apply herself to compete and plant the seeds and to work at it.  Only she can make something of herself.  The only choice for BYU is to retain the Honor Code and weed out party people.   If she needs help, she must leave the school and get counseling from her bishop and various professionals.

So those quotes are from the advisory report which you obviously disagree with. 

I’ve learned my knowledge about rape victims through experiences I wish never happened. So many commenters on these threads like to “tell” the victims what they should have done and when. For me those statements reflect a woeful lack of knowledge on the subject. But as the saying goes, “ignorance is bliss.”

[longview]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Considering the record of religions to same could be said about them. We don't expel the sinner. We try to help them to be better people.

The church can help her.  But BYU is NOT the place for her.  She has many other options that would be more appropriate.

[longview]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

But as the saying goes, “ignorance is bliss.”

It must be blissful in your "Utopian" world.  Your objective is simply not possible in this world.  Madi could have easily avoided all the turmoil she went through if she had fully committed herself to live by church standards and maintain friendships and associations with like-minded people.  God's commandments provide greater protection and offer a more peaceful life.

poster removed

[thesometimesaint]

Maybe yes, maybe no. While BYU isn't known as a "Party School" it is closely tied to the Church. You really can get ANYTHING you want, and some things you don't want at BYU. It is a good place if the rules are no imposition, they were not for me as a married Veteran, but I could see for some young inexperienced people it could be a challenge.

[Calm]

"If there was rape, she needed to go directly to the police"

What one needs to do is not always what one is capable of doing.

[bsjkki]

See, the difference between you and I is, I wonder why she was promiscous at 19? I joyfully believe and teach we are given commandments from God for our benefit and they do lead to a happier life. But...when it comes to violent, unlawful acts...believing if we keep the rules that we will be safe. That is an illusion. That is why so many people want to judge the victim because they want to believe that if they make all the right choices, they will be safe. It’s actually a bit arrogant.

Christ can heal souls, love motivates repentence more than scorn. Sending them home is not always the best choice and sometimes people matter more than policies.