Is the Pope more Mormon than our current leaders?

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Conservative Catholics are like conservative evangelicals or Mormons or you name the group, they don't like change.  

What's sad for conservative Mormons is that change should be our MO. 

I'm what 99.87% of people would describe as a 'conservative Mormon'. I love change. What I don't love is apostasy.

[kiwi57]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Did our polygamous prophets have "authentic families"?

Yes. Sometimes more than one.

Since when was the gospel an anti popularity gospel?  Lots of unpopular ideas out there you could choose from, I don't think popularity is a measuring stick for ethics.  

I rather think that was my point. There is no relationship between righteousness and popularity.

 

[hope_for_things]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  Each child had a mother and a father.  Each wife had a husband.  Each husband had a wife.  All were sealed in the covenant for eternity.
It doesn't get more authentic.

All families are authentic, I was just trying to get kiwi to think about the question.  

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Popularity is not in the plan if we are doing what is right.

I think you can contrast these statements with others about the gospel flooding the earth.  But even if you're correct does that mean whenever the church has a position that is in alignment with the popular opinions of the culture at large that this position must be out of alignment with God?  

Lots of other groups have unpopular options too, I see no reason to think that popularity is any kind of mechanism for measuring the value of a religious proposition.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

....................................................

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

In the past on this board we have had a number of threads in which the current Pope was admired for a variety of reasons, and I have been among those admirers.  Oddly enough, we have also heard from some Roman Catholics on this board who detest him.  Perhaps we need to convert him to the LDS faith and have him fill the current vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve, thus making both sides happy.  

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm what 99.87% of people would describe as a 'conservative Mormon'. I love change. What I don't love is apostasy.

Apostasy as you define as it I'm guessing.   

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Yes. Sometimes more than one.

I rather think that was my point. There is no relationship between righteousness and popularity.

Oh good, we agree on the popularity part it sounds like.  Some moral and ethical positions are very unpopular at times and vice versa. 

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In the past on this board we have had a number of threads in which the current Pope was admired for a variety of reasons, and I have been among those admirers.  Oddly enough, we have also heard from some Roman Catholics on this board who detest him.  Perhaps we need to convert him to the LDS faith and have him fill the current vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve, thus making both sides happy.  

Yes yes!!! Please make it happen!!  

[Kenngo1969]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In the past on this board we have had a number of threads in which the current Pope was admired for a variety of reasons, and I have been among those admirers.  Oddly enough, we have also heard from some Roman Catholics on this board who detest him.  Perhaps we need to convert him to the LDS faith and have him fill the current vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve, thus making both sides happy.  

I think "detest" might be too strong of a word, Bro. Smith, but your overall point that the Pope (or at least, what he has said) is not universally admired among Roman Catholics is a good one.

I was going to bring up the fact that filial correction has been invoked for the first time in nearly 700 years.  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69624-catholic-practice-of-filial-correction-implemented-first-time-since-1333/

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Apostasy as you define as it I'm guessing.   

Apostasy as the Lord defines it. My job is to get my definition to line up with His. Having access to living prophets certainly helps.

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes yes!!! Please make it happen!!  

I have nothing against my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, but if some Roman Catholics are concerned about some of the Pope's statements now, that would send them into the very heights of apoplexy ...  Some saying about airborne porcines is tugging at the far reaches of my memory ...  

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Apostasy as the Lord defines it. My job is to get my definition to line up with His. Having access to living prophets certainly helps.

Except when those prophets may be blind to their pride or as Pope Francis said too rigid.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Except when those prophets may be blind to their pride or as Pope Francis said too rigid.  

Motes and beams, mate. Motes and beams.

[kiwi57]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Except when those prophets may be blind to their pride or as Pope Francis said too rigid.  

HFT, if  you really think Jorge Mario Bergoglio is more worthy of your support than those whom the Saints sustain as apostles, seers and revelators, then have you considered the obvious course of action?

[TOmNossor]

I have two things to say.

First, I have been watching the controversy within the Catholic Church for a while.  The parish I grew up in was and is led by a wonderful priest who I love and admire.  He is not a fan of Catholic Answers.  He is a fan of Pope Francis.  The Catholicism I learned as a youth is not the Catholicism of Catholic Answers.  The Catholicism of Pope Francis is not the Catholicism of Catholic Answers.  It is WEIRD to me that Catholic Answers is defending the Pope’s CHANGE because while there are some who call it a change in practice, it is being implemented in Malta and surely other places as a change in doctrine.  The now disposed Cardinal who was the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith recently reiterated that there is no new public revelation (individuals can receive “private revelation” for themselves, but no new public revelation).

Pope Francis is not presenting this as revelation.  As best I can tell Tim Staples defends this CHANGE by not justify anyone KNOWING that they are divorced, remarried (living as husband and wife), and that this is defined now and in the past as ADULTRY; receiving the sacrament.  This neglects to account for something that the Pope presented and Tim Staples skipped as best I can tell.  The Pope claims that the CURRENT state of the divorced and remarried can preclude them from rectifying their state of ADULTRY because it is the lesser of two evils (ADULTRY vs. the dissolution of a healthy marriage).  The Catholic Church has taught (maybe always) that the husband and wife can live is as brother and sister rather than commit ADULTRY in this situation.  The Catholic Church (and Pope Francis) acknowledge that pastoral concern does not negate truth.  But I think the Pope is saying that truth can be negated and the reason he says this is out of pastoral concern.   

 

Second, I am a big believer in continuing revelation.  I also think that what many LDS FEEL/THINK about homosexuality and female priests and other issues is very similar to what many LDS FELT/THOUGHT about blacks and the priesthood.  That being said, there are much more clear doctrinal and revelatory teachings concerning female priests and homosexuality than there were in the case of blacks and the priesthood (I lean towards zero revelation in the institution of the priesthood ban myself).  But, I will follow the prophet.  I will follow the prophet.  It is not because I do not think for myself, but rather because I have weighed and measured the CoJCoLDS and the leaders of the CoJCoLDS and found that I am secure in putting faith in them as agents of my Lord Jesus Christ and my Father in Heaven.

So, I will not say NEVER to either question.  I will however follow the Prophet today and tomorrow.  If the Prophet asked me to reject Jesus Christ as my savior, I would need to find another church.  But there are many things I might disagree with the church could embrace and it would not overcome the position that the CoJCoLDS is God’s church on this earth in a way that indicates I should be a faithful member.

Charity, TOm

[TOmNossor]

45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In the past on this board we have had a number of threads in which the current Pope was admired for a variety of reasons, and I have been among those admirers.  Oddly enough, we have also heard from some Roman Catholics on this board who detest him.  Perhaps we need to convert him to the LDS faith and have him fill the current vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve, thus making both sides happy.  

I like this a lot.  Were I a Catholic, I would not be a fan of what Pope Francis is doing to the Catholic Church.  I was a fan of JPII and Benidict.  

That being said LDS have continued revelation AND LDS have pragmatic streak that has ALWAYS (as best I can tell) been rejected within Catholicism.  Pope Francis would be a kind and caring LDS leader.  If he could follow God's will and believe that he can receive revelation, then he would be a great LDS Bishop, Stake President, and probably Prophet.  In addition to this LDS do not believe the CoJCoLDS is infallible.  So if something like the priesthood ban is CHANGED, that can be a move towards greater light and truth.

Francis, as a Pope however, rejects continuing revelation and explains what he is doing is because of his deep sense of pastoral care for the situations he hopes to heal.  Absent revelation this type of doctrinal meandering IMO is very dangerous.  While Papal infallibility is a very recent dogma, the Catholic Church has taught that it (the Church) is infallible and there are irreformable doctrines.  One cannot have doctrinal CHANGE and have infallible doctrine before and after the CHANGE.    

Pastoral care is essential for all who interact with each other, but I worship a God who loves and reproves.  I know because I have been reproved before and I am ALWAYS loved even when I don't entirely FEEL like it.  Pastoral care cannot supersede truth.  Tough love is real love.

Charity, TOm

Edited October 13, 2017 by TOmNossor

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, TOmNossor said:

... Pastoral care is essential for all who interact with each other, but I worship a God who loves and reproves.  I know because I have been reproved before and I am ALWAYS loved even when I don't entirely FEEL like it.  Pastoral care cannot supersede truth.  Tough love is real love.

Charity, TOm

I really like this last paragraph.  I don't want God to tell me just what I want to hear.  I can get that sort of positive reinforcement from other places.  I want God to tell me what I need to hear, and I want Him to tell me the Truth.  

[Robert F. Smith]

17 minutes ago, TOmNossor said:

...................................................

Francis, as a Pope however, rejects continuing revelation and explains what he is doing is because of his deep sense of pastoral care for the situations he hopes to heal.  Absent revelation this type of doctrinal meandering IMO is very dangerous. .......................................

I'm not so sure that he rejects continuing revelation:

Quote

 

Francis believes miracles do happen, but it’s a wider understanding of the miraculous. Modern miracles, he says, are more about patient struggle than sudden spectacle, and people who need miracles in order to believe are on the wrong path.

As he put it shortly after his election: “God doesn’t work like a fairy with a magic wand.”  https://www.catholicregister.org/faith/item/20868-with-pope-francis-catholic-church-takes-a-new-angle-on-the-supernatural .

 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

The idea that some doctrines will "never change" goes against AoF #9. 

No, I don't think it does. 

Here is what the article says:

Quote

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Where does it say that all doctrines will evolve, and none will remain unchanged? 

Even with what the Pope said, I guarantee that if you ask him if he believes that the doctrines of the trinity, transubstantiation and the eucharist, the baptism of children, etc. etc. etc., would ever change, he would say no.  I think he would agree that even the Catholic Church has foundational and fundamental doctrines that will not change. 

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Mormons for all practical purposes have a closed cannon too, how many revelations have been added since the days of JS?  

 It has only been 39 years since the last canonized declaration.  When was the last update to the New Testament...367 AD?

Since the the Church has been established, we have added new canon in April 1830, June 1830, 1835, and after Joseph's death we have some added in 1880, 1890, 1976, and 1978 (within most of our life-times).

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

 Also I think you're selling the Pope short, he's been changing the message significantly on many different issues that I've seen.  

No, I agree, he has been mixing things up.  But what doctrines has he changed?  Sure, he is changing the message in many ways (so is our church), but is he altering any doctrines or creating new ones?a

[mrmarklin]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

I think the Pope sounds more Mormon than many of our current leaders to, when it comes to espousing a foundational Mormon doctrine (Article of faith #9) about continuing revelation.  

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/10/11/pope_francis_the_dynamic_word_of_god_cannot_be_moth-balled/1342352

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

The Catholic Church used to be the true church. Of course their doctrines are close to ours.

[Hamba Tuhan]

25 minutes ago, TOmNossor said:

Pastoral care is essential for all who interact with each other, but I worship a God who loves and reproves.  I know because I have been reproved before and I am ALWAYS loved even when I don't entirely FEEL like it.  Pastoral care cannot supersede truth.  Tough love is real love.

One of the things I find most striking about God is how He can smite me to the dust (a couple of times literally) when necessary to correct me at the very same time as filling me with a sense of His all-consuming love and patience and mercy and confidence that together we're going to be OK (because He knows how this whole divine parenting/saving/exalting thing works). Divine correction absolutely feels like correction, but it also brings hope and peace and even joy.

[strappinglad]

The D&C contains several ' revelations ' that deal with calling a person on a mission. With that precedent , several hundred new revelations arrive each week.

[kiwi57]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, I don't think it does. 

Here is what the article says:

Where does it say that all doctrines will evolve, and none will remain unchanged? 

What Pogi says. If we genuinely believe "all that God has revealed," doesn't that rather inescapably entail accepting it as true?

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The D&C contains several ' revelations ' that deal with calling a person on a mission. With that precedent , several hundred new revelations arrive each week.

No, mate. You've got to get with the criticism. If each instance is not canonised in the D&C (or PofGP) and preceded by 'Thus saith the Lord', then clearly the sun has gone down on the Latter-day prophets.

[poptart]

I'll just leave this here......

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/world/pope-heresy/index.html

 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, kiwi57 said:

HFT, if  you really think Jorge Mario Bergoglio is more worthy of your support than those whom the Saints sustain as apostles, seers and revelators, then have you considered the obvious course of action?

There are admirable things we can learn from all religious traditions I believe.  But they also have their limitations as well.  I'm not looking for a change at this time.