Word of Wisdom Poll of Personal Beliefs

[Button Gwinnett]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 9:12 AM, Calm said:

"Doctrine and Covenants 89:9 says we shouldn’t drink “hot drinks.” The only official interpretation of this term is the statement made by early Church leaders that it means tea and coffee. Caffeine is not specifically mentioned as the reason not to drink these drinks."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng

And yet someone who drinks decaffeinated coffee can receive a temple recommend, read the hand book

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said:

And yet someone who drinks decaffeinated coffee can receive a temple recommend, read the hand book

CFR- Please provide a statement and/or link from the handbook that states individuals who drink decaffeinated coffee should still receive a recommend.

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said:

And yet someone who drinks decaffeinated coffee can receive a temple recommend, read the hand book

I think that is because, when a hot drink has been so denatured, it is no longer a hot drink. This is an example of a difference between the revelation (D&C 89) and the worthiness requirement which is established under the inspiration of the modern "council of high priests" in verse 1 who are to govern the Church in such matters.

[Button Gwinnett]

52 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

CFR- Please provide a statement and/or link from the handbook that states individuals who drink decaffeinated coffee should still receive a recommend.

Arggg.... OK

Quote

Joseph L. Anderson, 8 January 1965, Secretary to the First Presidency wrote to one member (as directed by President David O. McKay), "I am directed to tell you that the drinking of a beverage made from the coffee bean, from which all caffeine and deleterious drugs have been removed, is not regarded as a violation of the Word of Wisdom." ("Decaffeinated Coffee Does Not Violate Word Of Wisdom" Revelations in Addition to Those Found in the LDS Edition of the D&C

Note that no First Presidency has ever rescinded this.

 

Here is the full Letter: 

Quote

Dear Brother C**:

Your letter of January 1st addressed to Miss Clare Middlemiss, secretary to President David O. McKay has been referred to this office for answer.

You indicate that you are the home teacher of a sister residing in your ward who has a Word of Wisdom problem in that she drinks coffee. You state that you are trying to help this sister overcome this problem by the use of Sanka or Postum. As your letter is understood, you are desirous of knowing the attitude of the Church regarding the drinking of Sanka Coffee.

I am directed to tell you that the drinking of a beverage made from the coffee bean, from which all caffeine and deleterious drugs have been removed, is not regarded as a violation of the Word of Wisdom.

In answer to your second inquiry as to whether President McKay has given and written suggestions for studying the gospel and the scriptures, I am directed to tell you that we know of no such written suggestions on this subject.

In answer to your final question as to the date when President McKay may have received revelations pertaining to the new priesthood correlation, home teaching, and family home evening programs, please be advised that we have no recorded date of such revelations.

Sincerely yours,

Joseph L. Anderson Secretary to the First Presidency

Also from FAIR 

Quote

The Tanners are not completely forthright, however, in claiming that current Word of Wisdom interpretation emphasizes “how much caffeine” a drink has. Just as in the days of Joseph Smith, Latter-day Saints today often interpret the Word of Wisdom according to orthodox medical knowledge. To consume chemicals that are harmful to the body violates the intent of the Word of Wisdom. For instance, it is a violation of the Word of Wisdom to use marijuana, heroin, or LSD. We also know now about the harmful effects of caffeine, and Church leaders have recommended its avoidance. While decaffeinated coffee¹³⁵ and herbal tea¹³⁶ do not violate the Word of Wisdom, drinking caffeinated colas–while discouraged–does not constitute nonobservance. The Church “has never included Cola drinks within the actual prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom”¹³⁷ and drinking colas does not prevent a member from entering the Temple.

Note Footnote 135:

Quote

Joseph L. Anderson, 8 January 1965, Secretary to the First Presidency wrote to one member (as directed by President David O. McKay), “I am directed to tell you that the drinking of a beverage made from the coffee bean, from which all caffeine and deleterious drugs have been removed, is not regarded as a violation of the Word of Wisdom.” (“Decaffeinated Coffee Does Not Violate Word Of Wisdom” Revelations in Addition to Those Found in the LDS Edition of the D&C [New Mormon Studies CD].)

For those interested in reading the full FAIR article see https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2000/up-in-smoke-a-response-to-the-tanners-criticism-of-the-word-of-wisdom#en135

Edit to Add: I no longer have access to a current leadership handbook and I might have overstated that decaf is specifically mentioned there but, I have provided David O. McKay's position as given through his personal secretary on this subject, and that is good enough for me, Although I do not drink decaf coffee, I have no problem with anyone who decides to do so and would certainly not prevent them from receiving a TR.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Button Gwinnett

[HappyJackWagon]

56 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said:

Arggg.... OK

Note that no First Presidency has ever rescinded this.

Quote

Dear Brother C**:

Your letter of January 1st addressed to Miss Clare Middlemiss, secretary to President David O. McKay has been referred to this office for answer.

You indicate that you are the home teacher of a sister residing in your ward who has a Word of Wisdom problem in that she drinks coffee. You state that you are trying to help this sister overcome this problem by the use of Sanka or Postum. As your letter is understood, you are desirous of knowing the attitude of the Church regarding the drinking of Sanka Coffee.

I am directed to tell you that the drinking of a beverage made from the coffee bean, from which all caffeine and deleterious drugs have been removed, is not regarded as a violation of the Word of Wisdom.

In answer to your second inquiry as to whether President McKay has given and written suggestions for studying the gospel and the scriptures, I am directed to tell you that we know of no such written suggestions on this subject.

In answer to your final question as to the date when President McKay may have received revelations pertaining to the new priesthood correlation, home teaching, and family home evening programs, please be advised that we have no recorded date of such revelations.

Sincerely yours,

Joseph L. Anderson Secretary to the First Presidency

Here is the full Letter: 

Also from FAIR 

Note Footnote 135:

For those interested in reading the full FAIR article see https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2000/up-in-smoke-a-response-to-the-tanners-criticism-of-the-word-of-wisdom#en135

Edit to Add: I no longer have access to a current leadership handbook and I might have overstated that decaf is specifically mentioned there but, I have provided David O. McKay's position as given through his personal secretary on this subject, and that is good enough for me, Although I do not drink decaf coffee, I have no problem with anyone who decides to do so and would certainly not prevent them from receiving a TR.

Thanks. I'd never seen this letter. Very interesting.

I don't have access to handbook 1 anymore either, but I do not recall anything about decaf being ok. I think it's an issue of leadership roulette, with the majority of leaders rejecting the idea that decaf coffee is ok, but that's just my guess. I don't know that this letter could be used as a clear statement of official LDS policy on decaf coffee but it seems clear that in 1965 with Pres. McKay, they didn't seem to think it was a problem. Interesting, indeed.

What is the source for that letter? Where can it be found?

Edited October 17, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Button Gwinnett]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Thanks. I'd never seen this letter. Very interesting.

I don't have access to handbook 1 anymore either, but I do not recall anything about decaf being ok. I think it's an issue of leadership roulette, with the majority of leaders rejecting the idea that decaf coffee is ok, but that's just my guess. I don't know that this letter could be used as a clear statement of official LDS policy on decaf coffee but it seems clear that in 1965 with Pres. McKay, they didn't seem to think it was a problem. Interesting, indeed.

What is the source for that letter? Where can it be found?

I found it on the F.A.I.R Mormon site.  I provided a link to the location in my earlier post. I'm pretty sure that if you google the jest of the quote you'll find multiple sites where it is quoted.  I've been aware of this policy for years and was quite surprised at the push back on this board.  It must be a generational thing,  I'm in my early 60's but I do agree that most Bishops would be unaware of this earlier clarification from President McKay, as for it being clear policy, I accept it as such until it is rescinded.

[Rivers]

I have a hard time answering these questions because there is such a big difference between the Word of Wisdom in its original historical context and how it viewed and enforced today.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said:

I found it on the F.A.I.R Mormon site.  I provided a link to the location in my earlier post. I'm pretty sure that if you google the jest of the quote you'll find multiple sites where it is quoted.  I've been aware of this policy for years and was quite surprised at the push back on this board.  It must be a generational thing,  I'm in my early 60's but I do agree that most Bishops would be unaware of this earlier clarification from President McKay, as for it being clear policy, I accept it as such until it is rescinded.

It hasn't been in the Handbook for decades, I believe, if it ever was.  I started checking as soon as I had online discussions which was in 2001 or 2.  It may have been a short term response that was then changed (like the counsel on a certain form of sex that will probably get censored).

[Button Gwinnett]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

It hasn't been in the Handbook for decades, I believe, if it ever was.  I started checking as soon as I had online discussions which was in 2001 or 2.  It may have been a short term response that was then changed (like the counsel on a certain form of sex that will probably get censored).

Well all I can say is that the handbook is not all inclusive nor does it offer specifics on every detail of how a member should conduct their lives.  But if someone choses to drink decaf coffee, that in my and President McKay's opinion would not be sufficient to keep them from acquiring a temple recommend.

[strappinglad]

So I guess it's OK to eat Mocha ice cream ?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I have a hard time answering these questions because there is such a big difference between the Word of Wisdom in its original historical context and how it viewed and enforced today.

Sort of the point.  Curious to see if the principles people adopt concerning the WofW come from scripture, man, or self.

The WoW as taught by the Church is not the same as revealed to Joseph Smith and canonized.  So I  am curious where people get their personal principles concerning the WoW and what they weight higher.

[Button Gwinnett]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

So I guess it's OK to eat Mocha ice cream ?

Not only mocha ice cream but rum cake dripping in rum sauce too

[Button Gwinnett]

On 10/13/2017 at 9:23 AM, smac97 said:

 

2. I have never encountered a Latter-day Saint who thought decaf was permissible under the WoW.

Thanks,

-Smac

I can think of at least one, his name was David O. McKay, but hey who was he anyway.

Thanks,

Button

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Button Gwinnett said:

I can think of at least one, his name was David O. McKay, but hey who was he anyway.

Thanks,

Button

Hmm. CFR, if you please.

Thanks,

-Smac

[HappyJackWagon]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Hmm. CFR, if you please.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't have the reference but the story is fairly well known. I believe it's in Prince's book, David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism

A member noticed David O McKay eating rum cake and acted shocked. They pointed out to him that there was rum because maybe he wasn't aware. His response was something like "We are not supposed to drink alcohol but the WoW doesn't say anything about eating it".

I totally butchered that but you get the gist  

Edited October 18, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't have the reference but the story is fairly well known. I believe it's in Prince's book, David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism

A member noticed David O McKay eating rum cake and acted shocked. They pointed out to him that there was rum because maybe he wasn't aware. His response was something like "We are not supposed to drink alcohol but the WoW doesn't say anything about eating it".

I totally butchered that but you get the gist  

Yes, I found it last night.  I withdraw the CFR.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Button Gwinnett]

15 hours ago, strappinglad said:

So I guess it's OK to eat Mocha ice cream ?

Not that we should use Mitt as an example of how we conduct our lives and the personal choices we each make each day.  But there was a small dust up during the presidential campaign over Mitt Romney having a coffee ice cream cone.  I think that sometimes the Pharisees in the church (yes they exist) with their ever present critical eyes get the upper hand over members by imposing a stricter WoW code than what even God demands of church members.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Button Gwinnett