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If the church is true......


poptart

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So, here's something that's always bothered me about the church.  While i've always appreciated the good they do, whenever i've tried pressing members for answers on important things i've usually been given a wishy washy passive agressive reply.  I've heard Utah used to have shops closed on Sunday and while i'm not sure I've always assumed abortion was not easy to get.   Now, businesses are open and from what i've seen Texas still puts Utah to shame.  Even homosexuality, the whole prop 8 thing still leaves a bitter  taste in my mouth, especially how it was done in a rather underhanded way. 
If the church is true, why not come out in the open and just fight things that are truly against Christianity?  Look at Germany.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Businesses are still closed there by law, Catholicism is still huge especially in Bavaria and even the Teutonic Order is around helping drug addicts and the elderly.  I can't help but wonder if this is one reason why the LDS church has not fared as well.  Americans like to call Europe secular mostly because the religion over there is still more about actions than words and the prosperity gospel, but if any religion, or in this case the LDS church claims to be true why the wishy washy passive agressive replies and press?  Why not just be like the early saints and martys?  Be honest, up front and actually try to legislate some deciency back into US society?  Are they that afraid of being shamed publically and losing their jobs?  As it is the left and alt right are gaining momentum and who knows, in a decade or so we may have a legit american nazi party.  Sure, we would get rid of the liberalism but guess what?  There goes a lot of the liberties we all take for granted and while people like me who have nothing to lose will sit by and watch, those with kids will have to cringe as the world they let slip by goes down the drain, and by that time it will be too late.

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I don't know how the church could have been any more open about opposing same sex marriage than its work on Prop 8.  But one thing that is different about Mormon theology is that believe that others should be free to worship their own way too.   The church has long discouraged shopping and recreating on sundays.   Pro-lifers think the mormon church is pro-choice even though mormons would not call themselves that at all, because it doesn't discipline its members for abortions when rape, incest and the life of the mother are involved.   But church members are disciplined for paying for or participating in an abortion outside of those parameters: what good would it do to make all abortion illegal?

 

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20 minutes ago, poptart said:

So, here's something that's always bothered me about the church.  While i've always appreciated the good they do, whenever i've tried pressing members for answers on important things i've usually been given a wishy washy passive agressive reply.  I've heard Utah used to have shops closed on Sunday and while i'm not sure I've always assumed abortion was not easy to get.   Now, businesses are open and from what i've seen Texas still puts Utah to shame.  Even homosexuality, the whole prop 8 thing still leaves a bitter  taste in my mouth, especially how it was done in a rather underhanded way. 
If the church is true, why not come out in the open and just fight things that are truly against Christianity?  Look at Germany.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Businesses are still closed there by law, Catholicism is still huge especially in Bavaria and even the Teutonic Order is around helping drug addicts and the elderly.  I can't help but wonder if this is one reason why the LDS church has not fared as well.  Americans like to call Europe secular mostly because the religion over there is still more about actions than words and the prosperity gospel, but if any religion, or in this case the LDS church claims to be true why the wishy washy passive agressive replies and press?  Why not just be like the early saints and martys?  Be honest, up front and actually try to legislate some deciency back into US society?  Are they that afraid of being shamed publically and losing their jobs?  As it is the left and alt right are gaining momentum and who knows, in a decade or so we may have a legit american nazi party.  Sure, we would get rid of the liberalism but guess what?  There goes a lot of the liberties we all take for granted and while people like me who have nothing to lose will sit by and watch, those with kids will have to cringe as the world they let slip by goes down the drain, and by that time it will be too late.

Why don't you try asking me some of the questions about which you say you've been getting wishy washy responses and we'll see if I can do a better job of answering them.

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3 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't know how the church could have been any more open about opposing same sex marriage than its work on Prop 8.  But one thing that is different about Mormon theology is that believe that others should be free to worship their own way too.   The church has long discouraged shopping and recreating on sundays.   Pro-lifers think the mormon church is pro-choice even though mormons would not call themselves that at all, because it doesn't discipline its members for abortions when rape, incest and the life of the mother are involved.   But church members are disciplined for paying for or participating in an abortion outside of those parameters: what good would it do to make all abortion illegal?

 

Limiting degeneracy.  A lot of people get pregnant on purpose to extort child support or benefits.  I like the idea of controling it, and if the parent is unfit the gov't or better yet someome like the church steps in and takes the child out of a bad situation.  Germany and other EU contries have interesting child support laws, the court gets the money and administers it, I really like that.

I'm all for free choice, but I figure when things get this far someone needs to put their foot down.  If it has to be done via social/legal means so be it.

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39 minutes ago, poptart said:

So, here's something that's always bothered me about the church.  While i've always appreciated the good they do, whenever i've tried pressing members for answers on important things i've usually been given a wishy washy passive agressive reply.  I've heard Utah used to have shops closed on Sunday and while i'm not sure I've always assumed abortion was not easy to get.   Now, businesses are open and from what i've seen Texas still puts Utah to shame.  Even homosexuality, the whole prop 8 thing still leaves a bitter  taste in my mouth, especially how it was done in a rather underhanded way. 
If the church is true, why not come out in the open and just fight things that are truly against Christianity?  Look at Germany.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Businesses are still closed there by law, Catholicism is still huge especially in Bavaria and even the Teutonic Order is around helping drug addicts and the elderly.  I can't help but wonder if this is one reason why the LDS church has not fared as well.  Americans like to call Europe secular mostly because the religion over there is still more about actions than words and the prosperity gospel, but if any religion, or in this case the LDS church claims to be true why the wishy washy passive agressive replies and press?  Why not just be like the early saints and martys?  Be honest, up front and actually try to legislate some deciency back into US society?  Are they that afraid of being shamed publically and losing their jobs?  As it is the left and alt right are gaining momentum and who knows, in a decade or so we may have a legit american nazi party.  Sure, we would get rid of the liberalism but guess what?  There goes a lot of the liberties we all take for granted and while people like me who have nothing to lose will sit by and watch, those with kids will have to cringe as the world they let slip by goes down the drain, and by that time it will be too late.

I'm confused here.  Are you asking why LDS don't bully everyone into behaving as we think they should?  

LDS individuals are encouraged to participate in our community, including politics and encouraging good legislation.  But the LDS church is not a political party to pick and push legislation on everything.  Rather, the LDS Church focuses on teaching values, and let's members participate in politics how they individually feel best suites those values.

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14 minutes ago, poptart said:

Limiting degeneracy.  A lot of people get pregnant on purpose to extort child support or benefits.  I like the idea of controling it, and if the parent is unfit the gov't or better yet someome like the church steps in and takes the child out of a bad situation.  Germany and other EU contries have interesting child support laws, the court gets the money and administers it, I really like that.

I'm all for free choice, but I figure when things get this far someone needs to put their foot down.  If it has to be done via social/legal means so be it.

The Church isn't going to forcefully yank a child out of their mother's arm.  That's just not happening.   

Now if any person has an opinion on how to improve child custody and support system, we'd encourage then to participate in the political process with those views.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

The Church isn't going to forcefully yank a child out of their mother's arm.  That's just not happening.   

Not even if she's a vile abusive degenerate with a revolving door of partners?

Don't know if I shared this, i worked at DI for a while.  Mom went to BYUH so I have a bit of a connection to the church.  I was in shared housing at the time, oddly enough the landlord was LDS.  One of the female tenants converted and had the church paying for her rent, food, etc.  She was drunk almost all the time, left pills lying around the house, slept with just about every guy in the house (thin walls, heard everything....) and was letting boyfriends and her ex's just abuse the hell out of the child.  I confronted a few of the LDS I knew about it after I turned her in to the Tacoma PD, they had a similar answer to yours.  They knew her, they knew her problems, they saw that child.  She had a rap sheet miles long and in the end the child was placed in foster care, she didn't care one bit and to my knowledge no one from her old ward raised a finger.  Response I was given was the typical passive agressive response, well we all have agency and you did the right thing.  No, they enabled child abuse and assuming Jesus is real he is probably fuming.  My hope is the Catholic Church is right, that way they have to deal with his mom too after death.

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8 minutes ago, poptart said:

Not even if she's a vile abusive degenerate with a revolving door of partners?

No, that's the department of Child Protective Services (at least in the US).  If someone is worried about a child not being adequately cared for, they should call the proper authorities (CPS) rather than going vigilante. 

8 minutes ago, poptart said:

Don't know if I shared this, i worked at DI for a while.  Mom went to BYUH so I have a bit of a connection to the church.  I was in shared housing at the time, oddly enough the landlord was LDS.  One of the female tenants converted and had the church paying for her rent, food, etc.  She was drunk almost all the time, left pills lying around the house, slept with just about every guy in the house (thin walls, heard everything....) and was letting boyfriends and her ex's just abuse the hell out of the child.  I confronted a few of the LDS I knew about it after I turned her in to the Tacoma PD, they had a similar answer to yours.  They knew her, they knew her problems, they saw that child.  She had a rap sheet miles long and in the end the child was placed in foster care, she didn't care one bit and to my knowledge no one from her old ward raised a finger.  Response I was given was the typical passive agressive response, well we all have agency and you did the right thing.  No, they enabled child abuse and assuming Jesus is real he is probably fuming.  My hope is the Catholic Church is right, that way they have to deal with his mom too after death.

Did you call CPS?  I'm guessing you did.  If so, yes that was the right move.  We believe in honoring and sustaining the law.   Randomly kidnapping the child would not have been the right move.

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

So, here's something that's always bothered me about the church.  While i've always appreciated the good they do, whenever i've tried pressing members for answers on important things i've usually been given a wishy washy passive agressive reply.  I've heard Utah used to have shops closed on Sunday and while i'm not sure I've always assumed abortion was not easy to get.   Now, businesses are open and from what i've seen Texas still puts Utah to shame.  Even homosexuality, the whole prop 8 thing still leaves a bitter  taste in my mouth, especially how it was done in a rather underhanded way. 
If the church is true, why not come out in the open and just fight things that are truly against Christianity? 

The LDS Prop 8 fight was done publicly, with LDS members on street corners with signs and on phones calling people.  The campaign was both public and successful, although the proposition was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court.  The LDS Church does not engage in civil disobedience to the supreme law of the land.  Ours is a free country in which a business may be open any day of the week.  It is true, that we once had "blue laws" in many states, including Utah, but they were unconstitutional and so were overturned.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Look at Germany.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Businesses are still closed there by law, Catholicism is still huge especially in Bavaria and even the Teutonic Order is around helping drug addicts and the elderly. 

Germany does not have true freedom of speech, and it is illegal to wear Nazi emblems and engage in Nazi demonstrations.  In the USA, Nazis are free to demonstrate and wear their symbols. We are two very different countries.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

I can't help but wonder if this is one reason why the LDS church has not fared as well.  Americans like to call Europe secular mostly because the religion over there is still more about actions than words and the prosperity gospel, but if any religion, or in this case the LDS church claims to be true why the wishy washy passive agressive replies and press?  Why not just be like the early saints and martys?  Be honest, up front and actually try to legislate some deciency back into US society?  Are they that afraid of being shamed publically and losing their jobs?  As it is the left and alt right are gaining momentum and who knows, in a decade or so we may have a legit american nazi party.  Sure, we would get rid of the liberalism but guess what?  There goes a lot of the liberties we all take for granted and while people like me who have nothing to lose will sit by and watch, those with kids will have to cringe as the world they let slip by goes down the drain, and by that time it will be too late.

We have had legal Nazi parties in the USA for all of my lifetime, and they are not going away soon.  We cannot legislate morality into American society.  That is illegal.  We can only preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and we do a pretty good job of that.

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6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

No, that's the department of Child Protective Services (at least in the US).  If someone is worried about a child not being adequately cared for, they should call the proper authorities (CPS) rather than going vigilante. 

Did you call CPS?  I'm guessing you did.  If so, yes that was the right move.  We believe in honoring and sustaining the law.   Randomly kidnapping the child would not have been the right move.

Turning her in would have been, no one did anything.

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14 minutes ago, poptart said:

Turning her in would have been, no one did anything.

This assumes that you have 100% for sure knowledge that they 100% knew the exact situation and 100% sure that they didn't call CPS themselves.  

Vast majority of CPS calls are anonymous for a reason: it prevents the (possibly) questionable parent from taking out retribution.  Also, CPS can take a long time to respond to calls.  If a church member did call, you probably wouldn't know about it. 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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52 minutes ago, poptart said:

Turning her in would have been, no one did anything.

As far as you know.  The government may not always act promptly or effectively in such matters.  Many CPS are overloaded and not properly funded.

I have called the Canadian version of CPS and police and taken in kids to my home a number of times and offered a home more.  It may or may not  have happened in this case, you shouldn't assume it doesn't happen ever.

I know tons of LDS parents who fostercare.  It tends to run in clumps probably because they first get the idea from seeing others and it is easier to see how to do it well when you have examples to watch, so you stick with it longer.

People may not tell you or others if they have or plan to report to avoid possible blowback from any unstable individuals.

The Church has no legal right to step in and take a child.  The individual could be arrested for kidnapping if they tried, which would help no one.  The Church could be in big trouble if they prompted such things.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, poptart said:

Limiting degeneracy.  A lot of people get pregnant on purpose to extort child support or benefits.  I like the idea of controling it, and if the parent is unfit the gov't or better yet someome like the church steps in and takes the child out of a bad situation.  Germany and other EU contries have interesting child support laws, the court gets the money and administers it, I really like that.

I do not think "a of people get pregnant on purpose to extort child support and benefits". I think maybe some do so who lack any respect for themselves. Gov't's have always took children from bad homes, and created the "Fostor Care Systems". You have batted around different issue, that are hard to link, but just one question. Why are you speaking of our quoting Germany's way of doing things? Are you a German citizen, brother? 

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

So, here's something that's always bothered me about the church.  While i've always appreciated the good they do, whenever i've tried pressing members for answers on important things i've usually been given a wishy washy passive agressive reply.  I've heard Utah used to have shops closed on Sunday and while i'm not sure I've always assumed abortion was not easy to get.   Now, businesses are open and from what i've seen Texas still puts Utah to shame.  Even homosexuality, the whole prop 8 thing still leaves a bitter  taste in my mouth, especially how it was done in a rather underhanded way. 
If the church is true, why not come out in the open and just fight things that are truly against Christianity?  Look at Germany.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Businesses are still closed there by law, Catholicism is still huge especially in Bavaria and even the Teutonic Order is around helping drug addicts and the elderly.  I can't help but wonder if this is one reason why the LDS church has not fared as well.  Americans like to call Europe secular mostly because the religion over there is still more about actions than words and the prosperity gospel, but if any religion, or in this case the LDS church claims to be true why the wishy washy passive agressive replies and press?  Why not just be like the early saints and martys?  Be honest, up front and actually try to legislate some deciency back into US society?  Are they that afraid of being shamed publically and losing their jobs?  As it is the left and alt right are gaining momentum and who knows, in a decade or so we may have a legit american nazi party.  Sure, we would get rid of the liberalism but guess what?  There goes a lot of the liberties we all take for granted and while people like me who have nothing to lose will sit by and watch, those with kids will have to cringe as the world they let slip by goes down the drain, and by that time it will be too late.

Utah used to be a theocracy but nowadays I'd say that the Brethren show remarkable restraint not controlling he legislation in that state. They do come out on issues of morality, family, and religion but with the amount of legislative bills which get debated, the amount of times the church comes out to officially support a bill, or a position to pass into law through legislation is very nil I'd say.

"may have a legit american nazi party"

Unfortunately, we already do. Several of them. :(

 

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2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

The Church isn't going to forcefully yank a child out of their mother's arm.  That's just not happening.   

Now if any person has an opinion on how to improve child custody and support system, we'd encourage then to participate in the political process with those views.

They only yank them out of the father's arms. ;)

/Juuuust kidding. I just had to fill in that opening. :)

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